Starting XI
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Jaume wrote:

So apparently Eric Dier could've played for Portugal considering he was part of the Sporting CP Academy. Why would he choose to play for a team that has had a losing, negative mentality for decades over a team with Cristiano Ronaldo, etc. is beyond me.

Maybe not good enough for Portugal?

Legend
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Jaume wrote:

So apparently Eric Dier could've played for Portugal considering he was part of the Sporting CP Academy. Why would he choose to play for a team that has had a losing, negative mentality for decades over a team with Cristiano Ronaldo, etc. is beyond me.

Fudgeing hell. It's easy to say that now given Portugal just won it, but come on.

Also maybe he doesn't give a flying fudge about Portugal.

Starting XI
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4.3K
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over 11 years

Born in England with an English family and feels English? Just happened to spend a few years of childhood in Portugal due to his Mother's job I believe. Portugal didn't really have a spectacular record of winning tournaments before yesterday in any case.

Jaume
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WeeNix
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England has had that losing mentality for a while though, it's not exactly out of nowhere. They get hyped to the days every single tournament by the British media, then a couple of games in they already have a scapegoat (Marcus Rashford, Rooney), then they lose pathetically (Iceland, or on penalties again), then their media sharks on them and asks "What went wrong?", rinse and repeat every single tournament.

And again, why would you not want to play with Ronaldo and Pepe, two mainstays at Real Madrid, amongst all other upcoming or already talented players? Much rather that then the only talent being Daniel Injury Sturridge, Harry Nowhere to be Seen Kane, Sterling and Rashford putting in an effort but getting shat by the British media, Rooney who's playing in a deeper role despite his old age and his not being great at that position, etc. The only talent from England that could play in a team like Real Madrid is Joe Hart, and he had a shocking tournament.

ajc28 wrote:

Born in England with an English family and feels English? Just happened to spend a few years of childhood in Portugal due to his Mother's job I believe.

He was at the Sporting Academy, a club known for producing talent between 2003–2012 and speaks fluent Portuguese. Not exactly his mother's job. 

Legend
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Jaume wrote:
 The only talent from England that could play in a team like Real Madrid is Joe Hart 

Absolute bullshark.

Woof Woof
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over 16 years

Buffon II wrote:

Jaume wrote:
 The only talent from England that could play in a team like Real Madrid is Joe Hart 

Absolute bullshark.

He could conceivably be the Real Madrid hurdy gurdy player on their mid-winter Folk Night do.

Jaume
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WeeNix
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almost 8 years

Buffon II wrote:

Jaume wrote:
 The only talent from England that could play in a team like Real Madrid is Joe Hart 

Absolute bullshark.

If not even Hart could make the Real Madrid team (he did have a couple of seasons where he was brilliant so it's not that inconceivable), then that further proves my point that Dier should've played for a nationality he was well integrated into in Portugal, knowing the language fluently and having the possibility of playing amongst world class players, unlike playing for England. Dier is miles better than João Mário is.

In the past Joe Hart was rated above Keylor Navas, so he did have the possible potential. 

Legend
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Jaume wrote:

Buffon II wrote:

Jaume wrote:
 The only talent from England that could play in a team like Real Madrid is Joe Hart 

Absolute bullshark.

If not even Hart could make the Real Madrid team (he did have a couple of seasons where he was brilliant so it's not that inconceivable), then that further proves my point that Dier should've played for a nationality he was well integrated into in Portugal, knowing the language fluently and having the possibility of playing amongst world class players, unlike playing for England. Dier is miles better than João Mário is.

In the past Joe Hart was rated above Keylor Navas, so he did have the possible potential. 

No. Your comment he was the only one that could is bullshark.

Jaume
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WeeNix
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Who could make it then? Past England players like Terry could, but he no longer plays for the national team. If English players could play for Real Madrid, Real Madrid would buy them. Jonathan Woodgate was a massive failure and David Beckham was great for Madrid. 

Sterling is inconsistent, Kane can't deliver 25+ goals a season which is what Real Madrid needs and wants, none of the current defenders are good enough, etc.

Phoenix Academy
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almost 12 years

"He was at the Sporting Academy, a club known for producing talent between 2003–2012 and speaks fluent Portuguese. Not exactly his mother's job"

Dier's mother got a job in Portugal, as part of the staff/hired hands organizing Euro 2004. The job was for about a year or so, and the family decided to stay on in Portugal indefinitely. Eric obviously displayed footballing ability and entered the Portuguese academy system. However he never played any under age representative level for Portugal(that should be a clue as to his feelings), and was English born, of English parents. In fact, his grandfather was Ted Croker, former CEO/Secretary or whatever of The FA in the 70s & 80s. As a result, being an Englishman, he chose to play for his own country; what's so hard to understand about that? Citing Portugal's victory in the Euros is absolutely meaningless; you're simply exercising the power of hindsight to "prove" your statement. I think Dier, as an Englishman would be pretty comfortable with his decision...

Marquee
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over 14 years

Ray Hicks wrote:

"He was at the Sporting Academy, a club known for producing talent between 2003–2012 and speaks fluent Portuguese. Not exactly his mother's job"

Dier's mother got a job in Portugal, as part of the staff/hired hands organizing Euro 2004. The job was for about a year or so, and the family decided to stay on in Portugal indefinitely. Eric obviously displayed footballing ability and entered the Portuguese academy system. However he never played any under age representative level for Portugal(that should be a clue as to his feelings), and was English born, of English parents. In fact, his grandfather was Ted Croker, former CEO/Secretary or whatever of The FA in the 70s & 80s. As a result, being an Englishman, he chose to play for his own country; what's so hard to understand about that? Citing Portugal's victory in the Euros is absolutely meaningless; you're simply exercising the power of hindsight to "prove" your statement. I think Dier, as an Englishman would be pretty comfortable with his decision...

I would go so far as saying playing for Portugal was probably never even a consideration for him
Phoenix Academy
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sthn.jeff wrote:

Ray Hicks wrote:

"He was at the Sporting Academy, a club known for producing talent between 2003–2012 and speaks fluent Portuguese. Not exactly his mother's job"

Dier's mother got a job in Portugal, as part of the staff/hired hands organizing Euro 2004. The job was for about a year or so, and the family decided to stay on in Portugal indefinitely. Eric obviously displayed footballing ability and entered the Portuguese academy system. However he never played any under age representative level for Portugal(that should be a clue as to his feelings), and was English born, of English parents. In fact, his grandfather was Ted Croker, former CEO/Secretary or whatever of The FA in the 70s & 80s. As a result, being an Englishman, he chose to play for his own country; what's so hard to understand about that? Citing Portugal's victory in the Euros is absolutely meaningless; you're simply exercising the power of hindsight to "prove" your statement. I think Dier, as an Englishman would be pretty comfortable with his decision...

I would go so far as saying playing for Portugal was probably never even a consideration for him

I agree. Dier was at Everton on a loan, from Sporting when he was 18 or so: Moysie wanted to keep him(I think), but Dier returned to Portugal without playing for the first team(if memory serves me...). Even then, I think he was keeping his club options open, as he's a big Spurs fan and was hoping they would jump in for him. They did. In Everton club interviews it mentioned his background and that he had played under age level for England. Seems pretty straightforward to me...

Marquee
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over 16 years

Jaume wrote:

Dier is miles better than João Mário is.

Not true. Also they play quite different roles. Dier would be competing with William Carvalho and Danilo in the current Portuguese squad.
Jaume
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WeeNix
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almost 8 years

Well I guess I can definitely concede the point that Dier feels English rather than Portuguese. I guess I would be less loyal myself considering I am a dual national Spaniard and Kiwi, so I'd pick Spain in football and NZ in rugby given the choice. Just don't see the point in playing for the one that's worse if you have the option to play for both. 

However it is still true that the British media places a massive, confusingly so given their quality, weight on the England players to perform perfectly and criticises every bad move they do. And none of them have the quality to be in the big 3 clubs in Europe (Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Real Madrid). 

Marquee
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over 16 years

Oska wrote:

Jaume wrote:

Dier is miles better than João Mário is.

Not true. Also they play quite different roles. Dier would be competing with William Carvalho and Danilo in the current Portuguese squad.

If he stayed playing in Portugal he probably would be competing to partner Pepe.
Marquee
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over 16 years

Quite possibly. Point is that, even if he had wanted to play for us, I don't think it as all a sure thing that he would have started ahead of any of the current Portugal CBs or DMs.

Legend
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Fudgeing hell the after timing bullshark spouted on this page is unreal.

Harry Kane literally scored 25 goals last season in the Premier League. He would quite comfortably score more than 25 in La Liga for one of the most stacked teams in world football, especially when playing against a bunch of goat farmers most weeks.

Dele Alli is clearly a player with potential, if guided by the right manager(s) he could turn out to be a world class midfielder capable of playing for any side.

It wasn't too long ago Jordan Henderson of all people was rumored to be on his was to Barca. Yes that's right, Jordan fudgeing Henderson!

Eric Dier would walk in to the Portugal side. Alongside Lallana he was England's best player at the tournament. He's only 22, but he still has a calmness yet assertiveness about him that is perfect for a player in his position. Can obviously improve but clearly one of the top young DM's around.

England (Hodgson) completely botching things early doors again and Portugal being the most underserved winners of a major tournament in recent memory has really lead to some god awful opinions on show here.

Budgie lover
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So why didn't they beat Iceland?

A group of good individuals but not a good team. i think that both Hodgson and the players need to take some responsibility in this. 

Hodgson shat the bed with his team and squad selections - but the players also under performed. The players need to own that as well.

(and by the media citicism I have seen they are)

Legend
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You are aware that club football and international football are two completely different environments, right?

Jaume
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WeeNix
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almost 8 years

Ah yes, the Spanish league which has dominated European competitions and has the best UEFA ranking for leagues is utter crap in comparison to the mighty Premier League with 1 team that made it to the semifinals because of an easy draw.

Dele Alli, perhaps, if he keeps playing well. However Jordan Henderson being linked with Barcelona means sweet fudge all. There's an absolute fudgeload of transfer rumours every single transfer window, one transfer rumour that doesn't occur couldn't mean less.

Buffon II wrote:
especially when playing against a bunch of goat farmers most weeks.

Wow, and I'm the one spouting bullshark? This is such an ignorant comment. There's a reason Spanish teams are currently the best: because the whole league is. Hence why Sevilla unsurprisingly to most Spaniards easily defeated Liverpool for another Europa League. Meanwhile English teams can't even make the semifinals of the Champions League for yet another season. 

"England (Hodgson) completely botching things early doors again and Portugal being the most underserved winners of a major tournament in recent memory has really lead to some god awful opinions on show here."

Oh, what a surprise that England went out so early. Because that hasn't happen in other recent tournaments! It was definitely supposed to be "coming home" this time. Yes, Hodgson was crap, but England always does shark. It can't always be that the coach is crap...

The Premier League, where a team like Leicester can win it with no challenge from Man City (who were god awful away), Arsenal (of course they couldn't win it in a season where every other major team choked), etc. Can't wait for Leicester to be lose to FC Basel and later on get destroyed in the knockout stages.

Budgie lover
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Buffon II wrote:

You are aware that club football and international football are two completely different environments, right?

Yes I am. you are the one that mixed club and international performances in your previous comments. Not me.

The after-timing is really just judging the performance of players. Are you saying that England is immune from that? No one is disparaging of Wales, Iceland, perhaps to a lesser extent Germany. 

Ironically, a number (including myself) are sniffing at Portugal even though they won the thing. 

portugal played poorly and won the whole thing. England played poorly and went home round of 16. I think that England needs to own the fact they played (and were coached) poorly.

Budgie lover
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Legend
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Jaume wrote:

There's a reason Spanish teams are currently the best: because the whole league is. Hence why Sevilla unsurprisingly to most Spaniards easily defeated Liverpool for another Europa League. 

Nope, you are wrong. Apart from the top 3-4 the league is sharke. Teams rolling over for the big boys every week. I don't like Mourinho at all but he is spot on when comparing the two leagues. La Liga is tough to win because the very top teams win almost every week, leaving no room for error. But as he says, you only have to focus your energy on one, maybe two rivals. In England every game is tough, every week is tough. After Barca or Real play their CL match midweek they get an easy trip to Las Palmas or Granada who bend over for them 9 times out of 10. The English clubs face a three day turnaround before going somewhere gruelling like Sunderland or Palace away, with managers who actually give a shark about making life difficult for the bigger opposition.

No one anywhere was surprised about Sevilla winning ffs. Liverpool finished 8th in the league. They were hardly kings of England.

Also you'll be waiting a long time for Leicester to lose to Basel mate. Barring half their side being plundered in this transfer window, you aren't going to see the runaway champions of England beaten by some Swiss no marks. But then i can tell from the rest of the drivel in your post it's either 1) Another dig at the Premier League/English football or 2) A lack of respect to what Leicester have achieved and the ability of their squad. Maybe even both.

Jaume
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WeeNix
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almost 8 years

The ranking of leagues by UEFA is objective: it measures the quality of teams based on their performance in European competitions. If English teams were better currently they'd be destroying the Champions League, wouldn't they? 

The fact that the third best Spanish team (Atletico Madrid) can defeat teams like Bayern Munich speaks volumes of the current state of affairs. Atletico Madrid has proven they are currently better than any English team.

I'm not having a dig at the Premier League/English football, rather saying in comparison the quality is not as good, or else the English league/national team would be winning it all.

Woof Woof
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over 16 years

Buffon II wrote:

Jaume wrote:

There's a reason Spanish teams are currently the best: because the whole league is. Hence why Sevilla unsurprisingly to most Spaniards easily defeated Liverpool for another Europa League. 

Nope, you are wrong. Apart from the top 3-4 the league is sharke. Teams rolling over for the big boys every week. I don't like Mourinho at all but he is spot on when comparing the two leagues. La Liga is tough to win because the very top teams win almost every week, leaving no room for error. But as he says, you only have to focus your energy on one, maybe two rivals. In England every game is tough, every week is tough. After Barca or Real play their CL match midweek they get an easy trip to Las Palmas or Granada who bend over for them 9 times out of 10. The English clubs face a three day turnaround before going somewhere gruelling like Sunderland or Palace away, with managers who actually give a shark about making life difficult for the bigger opposition.

No one anywhere was surprised about Sevilla winning ffs. Liverpool finished 8th in the league. They were hardly kings of England.

Also you'll be waiting a long time for Leicester to lose to Basel mate. Barring half their side being plundered in this transfer window, you aren't going to see the runaway champions of England beaten by some Swiss no marks. But then i can tell from the rest of the drivel in your post it's either 1) Another dig at the Premier League/English football or 2) A lack of respect to what Leicester have achieved and the ability of their squad. Maybe even both.

I'm sorry Buffy, but that's absolute bollocks. Mourinho is (and always has been) full of shark when it comes to public pronouncements, and is notorious for sour grapes - no surprises then that he said that given his failure in Spain. 

The reality is that the very best in Spain are light years ahead of everyone but Bayern, but the next tier of Spanish teams (including Valencia, Sevilla, Villarreal, Athletic Bilbao) could compete for top positions in England on half the budgets of Premier League teams. Their domination of European competition over the last few years has been absolutely ridiculous, and that's not just Barca and Real Madrid.

Woof Woof
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over 16 years

Buffon II wrote:

Also you'll be waiting a long time for Leicester to lose to Basel mate. Barring half their side being plundered in this transfer window, you aren't going to see the runaway champions of England beaten by some Swiss no marks. But then i can tell from the rest of the drivel in your post it's either 1) Another dig at the Premier League/English football or 2) A lack of respect to what Leicester have achieved and the ability of their squad. Maybe even both.

And in case of any doubt - the game mattered to United. They were knocked out of the group stage of the Champions League because of this loss.

Legend
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17K
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el grapadura wrote:

The reality is that the very best in Spain are light years ahead of everyone but Bayern, but the next tier of Spanish teams (including Valencia, Sevilla, Villarreal, Athletic Bilbao) could compete for top positions in England on half the budgets of Premier League teams. Their domination of European competition over the last few years has been absolutely ridiculous, and that's not just Barca and Real Madrid.

I'm doing it like this because my quoting skills are absolute gash.

The bolded bit: I don't think anyone is arguing that, nor have i said that anywhere.

The italics bit: Money in football is stupid, no more so than the Premier League. Irrelevant. Valencia were awful last season, i really don't see an argument for them competing for top (we'll say CL spots) positions in England as things currently stand. Sevilla? Yeah i can see that, but again i can't remember them being tested by any English heavyweights recently, or European for that matter. Seem to dominate a second tier competition without ever making the necessary step up. Villarreal. Put out on the arse by a bog standard Liverpool. Athletic Bilbao, debatable.

The regular bit: Well, add Atleti in to the mix and it sort of is though. Sevilla have dominated a second tier competition, but really it is the very best in Spain, who as you say are light years ahead of everyone, dominating. Not really a surprise when you look at the state of their two squads.

Legend
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17K
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almost 17 years

Just as an aside, how many players have moved from La Liga to the Premier League recently and been a success? And vice versa.

Woof Woof
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But it's all subjective, isn't it? You don't think those teams would compete, and dismiss them for rolling over to Barca and Real Madrid, yet when they play in Europe, the only reasonably objective parameter we have, they tend to do much better than English teams, certainly over the least few years. Surely at some point there has to be recognition that despite subjective beliefs in the strength of the Premier League, the only objective standard available suggests that as a league, it's some way behind La Liga. And not just because of Barca and Real.

Woof Woof
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Buffon II wrote:

Just as an aside, how many players have moved from La Liga to the Premier League recently and been a success? And vice versa.

Actually, the reality is that the Premier League, despite the cash, can't get the best players in the world to play there.

Of the best 5 players in the world right now, how many play in England? 

0.

Legend
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Tbh i was more getting at the likes of Las Palmas, Granada, Rayo, Almeira, Getafe etc.. for rolling over as opposed to Sevilla, Valencia and the like. The equivalents in England don't tend to do that, therefore leading to tougher fixtures, tougher competition, and a harder time dealing with squad rotation (can't wait for Pep to see all this first hand).

There's also a winter break in Spain.

But yes it is all subjective. Using the top 15-20% of teams who get to compete in European competition as a barometer for the strength of the whole league is too unbalanced imo.

Legend
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17K
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almost 17 years

el grapadura wrote:

Buffon II wrote:

Just as an aside, how many players have moved from La Liga to the Premier League recently and been a success? And vice versa.

Actually, the reality is that the Premier League, despite the cash, can't get the best players in the world to play there.

Of the best 5 players in the world right now, how many play in England? 

0.

That wasn't what i asked.

And who are the top 5 players in the world anyway?

Christ we could be here till sunrise at this rate 

Starting XI
1.3K
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2.7K
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almost 9 years

[/quote]

And who are the top 5 players in the world anyway?

[/quote]

Messi

Ronaldo

schweinsteiger

?

?

Woof Woof
2.7K
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19K
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over 16 years

Buffon II wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

Buffon II wrote:

Just as an aside, how many players have moved from La Liga to the Premier League recently and been a success? And vice versa.

Actually, the reality is that the Premier League, despite the cash, can't get the best players in the world to play there.

Of the best 5 players in the world right now, how many play in England? 

0.

That wasn't what i asked.

And who are the top 5 players in the world anyway?

Christ we could be here till sunrise at this rate 

The question you asked has no clear answer - players have gone both ways, and the rate of success going either way has been pretty similar, broadly speaking. What I was trying to highlight is that the best players in the Premier League tend to move to Spain, rather than the other way around.

Woof Woof
2.7K
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19K
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over 16 years

Buffon II wrote:

Tbh i was more getting at the likes of Las Palmas, Granada, Rayo, Almeira, Getafe etc.. for rolling over as opposed to Sevilla, Valencia and the like. The equivalents in England don't tend to do that, therefore leading to tougher fixtures, tougher competition, and a harder time dealing with squad rotation (can't wait for Pep to see all this first hand).

There's also a winter break in Spain.

But yes it is all subjective. Using the top 15-20% of teams who get to compete in European competition as a barometer for the strength of the whole league is too unbalanced imo.

Barcelona thumped Valencia 7-0 this past season (with Gary Neville in charge, who as a pundit, had used the exact same argument of 'teams just rolling over for the big guns in Spain'). He found out it's not quite that simple on the pitch. Using those results as a barometer isn't all that useful, since a side like Barcelona could just as easily thump a Crystal Palace, or Stoke, or Swansea by the same margin. But they won't get to play them in a meaningful game in our lifetime, so probably best to leave it there.

The better Barnes
210
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360
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over 12 years

I always find these 'which league is better' discussions interesting. Its easy to say that the Premier League is weaker than La Liga because they don't get as many finalists in the UCL, and to say that the PL is more competitive because the games are closer (as in there aren't any 7 or 8 goal wins like what happens in LL) and it's a lot harder to predict the winner at the start of the season. But what we can't compare is how the lower teams in each league would do against each other. So we can really only say that the top teams of La Liga (and Bundesliga to an extent) are better than the top teams in the Premier League.

In terms of players, top players are always going to want to be playing alongside other top players, and move clubs accordingly (look at Bale and Suarez, both won player of the season in their last season in the PL, yet moved to La Liga to play alongside players of their ability). And because these leagues have 2-3 teams stacked with top players, there are always going to be players moving from the PL (who's top players are spread out over 5-6 teams) who want to move to the likes of Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern Munich etc so they can further themselves as a player and have a much better chance at winning trophies. 

From where I see it, there's no clear indicator as to which leagues are better, as their are too many variables between the leagues that differ (the likes of days between games and whether there is a midseason break), as well as the only games between the leagues are between the top in each league (in the CL and EL)), and there's no direct comparison between the mid-table teams or the teams fighting for survival.

Woof Woof
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over 16 years

Kyle1502 wrote:

From where I see it, there's no clear indicator as to which leagues are better, as their are too many variables between the leagues that differ (the likes of days between games and whether there is a midseason break), as well as the only games between the leagues are between the top in each league (in the CL and EL)), and there's no direct comparison between the mid-table teams or the teams fighting for survival.

I always thought this was a red herring. The midwinter break in Spain is two weeks, it's not some mythical revitalising panacea that turns La Liga players into supermen. By the same token, the Premier League finishes earlier (generally by early May), which means longer break over the summer. It's really not much of an argument, unless you're looking for an excuse.

Like I said, it is subjective because there is no absolutely thoroughly objective method available to settle the argument, but when teams from the top half of one league consistently achieve better results in European competition than clubs from top half of another league over a number of years, it can't be simply dismissed as irrelevant in the discussion.

Starting XI
290
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4.7K
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almost 17 years

Full time

El Grap 1, Buffy nil

Marquee
1.3K
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over 16 years

Buffon II wrote:

There's also a winter break in Spain.

But yes it is all subjective. Using the top 15-20% of teams who get to compete in European competition as a barometer for the strength of the whole league is too unbalanced imo.

They play just about as many games (possibly more because they are getting further in Europe :P) as their English counterparts. And currently the EPL is balanced but that just means the top teams are not very good at the moment - which is shown when they participate against other top teams from Europe. 

tradition and history
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9.9K
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almost 17 years

Interesting fact is that 25% of all the players at the Euro play in the EPL.

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