Phoenix Academy
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Where would you rate it?  There are teams that would struggle in the major top leagues, but any team that makes the quarter finals I reckon would be close to CL standard.

World Cup winners v CL league winners for the same year would be interesting.

Starting XI
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Real Madrid sure do win the Champions League a lot in World Cup years:

98: Real Madrid

02: Real Madrid

06: Barcelona

10: Inter

14: Real Madrid

18: Real Madrid

Woof Woof
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Colvinator wrote:

Real Madrid sure do win the Champions League a lot in World Cup years:

98: Real Madrid

02: Real Madrid

06: Barcelona

10: Inter

14: Real Madrid

18: Real Madrid

1958 and 1966 too.

Starting XI
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LFCNZ wrote:

Where would you rate it?  There are teams that would struggle in the major top leagues, but any team that makes the quarter finals I reckon would be close to CL standard.

World Cup winners v CL league winners for the same year would be interesting.

I think it depends on whether you're talking about in the abstract or a real-life game. If you could control for a bunch of stuff like time spent training together then there's a bunch of teams that could give Real a decent game. If you put them together for a real friendly then you're really only looking at teams like Germany, Croatia, and Spain who have good players and a strong collective. No one else is really clicking yet (and obviously even Germany are finding unlocking organised teams hard).

EDIT: I forgot Belgium, how could I forget Belgium?

Early retirement
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Dark horses and all that.

First Team Squad
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I think it's way below par.

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

That's down to weak defences and stretched games.

Woof Woof
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20 Legend wrote:
 

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

Like who exactly?

Overall, though, as Critical Lemon has said, it's pretty hard to compare club v international football. The dynamics of each are way too different to make any meaningful comparison. But this World Cup has been very enjoyable, there have been lots of good games and no-one is finding it easy, which is exactyly what you want.

First Team Squad
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el grapadura wrote:

20 Legend wrote:
 

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

Like who exactly?

Overall, though, as Critical Lemon has said, it's pretty hard to compare club v international football. The dynamics of each are way too different to make any meaningful comparison. But this World Cup has been very enjoyable, there have been lots of good games and no-one is finding it easy, which is exactyly what you want.

Every game with some trash team has one player who plays for Sunderland/Stoke/Newcastle or something equally trash and they become stand out players for their team and for the game in general.

Phoenix Academy
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over 11 years

20 Legend wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

20 Legend wrote:
 

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

Like who exactly?

Overall, though, as Critical Lemon has said, it's pretty hard to compare club v international football. The dynamics of each are way too different to make any meaningful comparison. But this World Cup has been very enjoyable, there have been lots of good games and no-one is finding it easy, which is exactyly what you want.

Every game with some trash team has one player who plays for Sunderland/Stoke/Newcastle or something equally trash and they become stand out players for their team and for the game in general.

I think he was meaning names of indivisuals Bud.  I can recal players being mentioned as playing for Stoke etc a you ention but not being outstanding

Woof Woof
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20 Legend wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

20 Legend wrote:
 

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

Like who exactly?

Overall, though, as Critical Lemon has said, it's pretty hard to compare club v international football. The dynamics of each are way too different to make any meaningful comparison. But this World Cup has been very enjoyable, there have been lots of good games and no-one is finding it easy, which is exactyly what you want.

Every game with some trash team has one player who plays for Sunderland/Stoke/Newcastle or something equally trash and they become stand out players for their team and for the game in general.

There's a couple of points here. Firstly, players have to fit within the team that they play for. Players have different qualities, and these show in different light depending on the way the team that they play for plays. Additionally, in international football, the style of play is adjusted to what gives the available players the best chance to win; in club football, it's really the other way around (i.e. you pick players who can pull off the style you want to play). So to say that the standard is lower because Player X looks better playing for Switzerland or whatever rather than Newcastle or whatever is pretty misguided. Not to mention that calling players playing for those kind of clubs trash is interesting in itself - if they are trash, what about the Phoenix players then?

Secondly, the general observation doesn't really work at an even basic level, since by the same token, some of the best players in the world right now (let's say Messi and Neymar) have really struggled in the World Cup so far, so using this kind of logic, you could easily be saying that the standard here is higher.

Either way, comparing the two is pretty difficult and there is no way of objectively determining the standard one way or another. 

Phoenix Academy
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over 10 years

You can't compare international tournaments with regular leagues. There are always players who star for their countries but don't produce regularly for their clubs, eg Ospina for Colombia. And it wasn't that long ago that NZ played out of their skins to draw with Italy, which didn't make the tournament trash, it's just what happens.

Rather than trying to compare the 2, just enjoy the World Cup for what it is, and so far there's been some great football, some average and plenty of cheating - just like any regular club season.

Starting XI
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I reckon its been good but not as great as some of the media are trying to make out

got to say enjoy it though as once we get to 48 teams there will be alot more games like Russia v Saudi Arabia and England v Paraguay

Woof Woof
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I reckon its been good but not as great as some of the media are trying to make out

got to say enjoy it though as once we get to 48 teams there will be alot more games like Russia v Saudi Arabia and England v Paraguay

You mean Panama?

Starting XI
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el grapadura wrote:

I reckon its been good but not as great as some of the media are trying to make out

got to say enjoy it though as once we get to 48 teams there will be alot more games like Russia v Saudi Arabia and England v Paraguay

You mean Panama?

aye of course, and I can't blame auto-correct!

Appiah without the pace
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Hard to say whether there will be a lot more. Suspect increases in CAF, CONMEBOL and UEFA allocation won't see a drastic drop off in quality.

CONCACAF going from 3.5 to 6 is a concern because traditionally the USA, Mexico and Costa Rica have been the only decent sides and the drop off seems to be quite big after that.

AFC goes from 4.5 to 8 is another one. But don't think the drop off from those that qualified that the next 4 is that huge, and given the amount of money floating around the confederation, the standard could rise in the next 8 years.

Legend
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happydays wrote:

You can't compare international tournaments with regular leagues. There are always players who star for their countries but don't produce regularly for their clubs, eg Ospina for Colombia. And it wasn't that long ago that NZ played out of their skins to draw with Italy, which didn't make the tournament trash, it's just what happens.

Rather than trying to compare the 2, just enjoy the World Cup for what it is, and so far there's been some great football, some average and plenty of cheating - just like any regular club season.

And it is knock out football. Look at the differences between cup competitions and leagues. It is easier for a team to put together an over performance or stonewall and steal a win. Almost any player in the premier league is good enough to score a WC goal or do something decisive in a WC game. Are you really saying Shaqiri isn't quality? 

There's also the nature of representing a country and the 4 year gap until the next chance- this is huge for a lot of people. There is the potential for a lot of motivation and cohesiveness in a team that you don't necessarily find in a club game. It's an event that draws the attention of people who don't follow football week in and week out. It is a spectacle that a league game can't compete with except perhaps in exceptional circumstances. 

Then you also have players who are quite capable for club who struggle with that pressure- if you look at the misses from Lingard, Sterling, Messi....

Woof Woof
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2ndBest wrote:

Hard to say whether there will be a lot more. Suspect increases in CAF, CONMEBOL and UEFA allocation won't see a drastic drop off in quality.

CONCACAF going from 3.5 to 6 is a concern because traditionally the USA, Mexico and Costa Rica have been the only decent sides and the drop off seems to be quite big after that.

AFC goes from 4.5 to 8 is another one. But don't think the drop off from those that qualified that the next 4 is that huge, and given the amount of money floating around the confederation, the standard could rise in the next 8 years.

Agree. CONCACAF is definitely the biggest worry, though the fact that more spots will be available could motivate more English-born players of Caribbean heritage to play for the sides like Jamaica and T&T (or if not more, at least those who have been playing may play more often, and not wait for the Hex because they can't be bothered with the travel).

Woof Woof
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martinb wrote:
 

There's also the nature of representing a country and the 4 year gap until the next chance- this is huge for a lot of people. There is the potential for a lot of motivation and cohesiveness in a team that you don't necessarily find in a club game. It's an event that draws the attention of people who don't follow football week in and week out. It is a spectacle that a league game can't compete with except perhaps in exceptional circumstances. 

Couple of great points here too. I was watching the post-match of Argentina v Croatia on BBC the other day, and Pablo Zabaleta made a point relating to Caballero's error for the first goal that really encapsulates this. He said something along the lines of - if that's a normal league game, you feel a little bit bad, but in 3-4 days you have another game, and another one after that, and it's not really problem. In the World Cup, you don't get another chance for four years, or maybe never. A mistake like that can stay with you for the rest of your life.

First Team Squad
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el grapadura wrote:

There's a couple of points here. Firstly, players have to fit within the team that they play for. Players have different qualities, and these show in different light depending on the way the team that they play for plays. Additionally, in international football, the style of play is adjusted to what gives the available players the best chance to win; in club football, it's really the other way around (i.e. you pick players who can pull off the style you want to play). So to say that the standard is lower because Player X looks better playing for Switzerland or whatever rather than Newcastle or whatever is pretty misguided. Not to mention that calling players playing for those kind of clubs trash is interesting in itself - if they are trash, what about the Phoenix players then?

Secondly, the general observation doesn't really work at an even basic level, since by the same token, some of the best players in the world right now (let's say Messi and Neymar) have really struggled in the World Cup so far, so using this kind of logic, you could easily be saying that the standard here is higher.

Either way, comparing the two is pretty difficult and there is no way of objectively determining the standard one way or another. 

Well yeah, exactly. The standard is lower because teams have to adapt to what they are given. Whereas club football the club adapts to build the best team.

I kind of take your point about Messi and Neymar but then both examples have bigger factors at play. Neymar has spent the year bumming around and Messi's extraordinary talent has a lot to do with having Barcelona players around him.

Woof Woof
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20 Legend wrote:
 

Well yeah, exactly. The standard is lower because teams have to adapt to what they are given. Whereas club football the club adapts to build the best team.

Well no - it doesn't mean that the standard is lower, just that games are approached differently. Because if your view was correct, than Leyton Orient would have a better side than, let's say, Switzerland, and that quite clearly isn't the case. 

Starting XI
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Agree with most being said.

Also worth mentioning, that while countries don't get to play week in week out, there is often a cohesiveness that can develop over many years if developed well by the nation. Through scattered games throughout the season & molding good relationships etc. A lot of clubs have their teams change quite a bit season to season, but national outfits can be pretty similar over a number of years, and for smaller nations, their 'star', isn't going to get sold off, so they can build off their one or two best players long-term.

And nationalism is a huge driving force, for sure. I'm sure most these guys love their club football and fall for their clubs in a meaningful way (not just for the money), but playing for your country that you dreamed of doing since a lad can count for something.

Starting XI
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There are some really good points being made here and for the I pretty much agree with everything el grap has said

I also have a theory that any player has not only a 'capability range', but also a 'consistency factor'

i.e. they could be a 7 out of 10 player, but only 25% of the time and they spend 75% of their time performing as a 5 out of 10 player. Ask them to perform at 7/10 for a full season and that would be impossible. Therefore, their club career will be limited. Ask them to do it for a month and with the right, prep, cohesion, happiness etc you have a 7/10 player for your tournament.

Apply the same theory in reverse... a 7 out of 10 player has built a career on turning up and performing at 7/10 most of the time with other players conditioned to do the same and over the years this has become mechanical.  Ask them to operate in a comparatively 'one-off' manner and there can be challenges.

Lewandowski hit 41 goals for Bayern in 48 games this season, but even with Zielinski alongside him he couldn't trouble Senegal. Sure, Senegal had Koulibaly, but the other three defenders and the keeper were the type of players that Lewandowski and Zielinski ususally dominate

WeeNix
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over 9 years

20 Legend wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

20 Legend wrote:
 

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

Like who exactly?

Overall, though, as Critical Lemon has said, it's pretty hard to compare club v international football. The dynamics of each are way too different to make any meaningful comparison. But this World Cup has been very enjoyable, there have been lots of good games and no-one is finding it easy, which is exactyly what you want.

Every game with some trash team has one player who plays for Sunderland/Stoke/Newcastle or something equally trash and they become stand out players for their team and for the game in general.

Stop worrying about what "trash" team someone plays for and watch the football. Sometimes I wonder if people actually love the game or if they just care about all the peripheral drivel that gets spouted about the game. Its been a really good WC so far devoid of the dull predictability of the champions league and epl. Wish we saw more of it.

and 2 others
Phoenix Academy
360
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470
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over 6 years

AlfStamp wrote:

20 Legend wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

20 Legend wrote:
 

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

Like who exactly?

Overall, though, as Critical Lemon has said, it's pretty hard to compare club v international football. The dynamics of each are way too different to make any meaningful comparison. But this World Cup has been very enjoyable, there have been lots of good games and no-one is finding it easy, which is exactyly what you want.

Every game with some trash team has one player who plays for Sunderland/Stoke/Newcastle or something equally trash and they become stand out players for their team and for the game in general.

Stop worrying about what "trash" team someone plays for and watch the football. Sometimes I wonder if people actually love the game or if they just care about all the peripheral drivel that gets spouted about the game. Its been a really good WC so far devoid of the dull predictability of the champions league and epl. Wish we saw more of it.

Japan going 2-0 up against Belgium only to lose 3-2 being a case in point!

LG
Legend
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If 30 years ago you said Japan would be a force in football, 90% of fans would have laughed at you. Look at them now. Still Nieve in some defending but what a good team to watch.

Woof Woof
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reg22 wrote:
 

I also have a theory that any player has not only a 'capability range', but also a 'consistency factor'

i.e. they could be a 7 out of 10 player, but only 25% of the time and they spend 75% of their time performing as a 5 out of 10 player. Ask them to perform at 7/10 for a full season and that would be impossible. Therefore, their club career will be limited. Ask them to do it for a month and with the right, prep, cohesion, happiness etc you have a 7/10 player for your tournament.

Apply the same theory in reverse... a 7 out of 10 player has built a career on turning up and performing at 7/10 most of the time with other players conditioned to do the same and over the years this has become mechanical.  Ask them to operate in a comparatively 'one-off' manner and there can be challenges.

Great point.

Marquee
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el grapadura wrote:

reg22 wrote:
 

I also have a theory that any player has not only a 'capability range', but also a 'consistency factor'

i.e. they could be a 7 out of 10 player, but only 25% of the time and they spend 75% of their time performing as a 5 out of 10 player. Ask them to perform at 7/10 for a full season and that would be impossible. Therefore, their club career will be limited. Ask them to do it for a month and with the right, prep, cohesion, happiness etc you have a 7/10 player for your tournament.

Apply the same theory in reverse... a 7 out of 10 player has built a career on turning up and performing at 7/10 most of the time with other players conditioned to do the same and over the years this has become mechanical.  Ask them to operate in a comparatively 'one-off' manner and there can be challenges.

Great point.

Just describing Football Manager mechanics :P
Phoenix Academy
240
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360
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over 10 years

I think this sums it up perfectly. Doesn't matter who is playing, you just never know what is going to happen and that's what makes football so much fun

https://www.football365.com/news/world-cup-proves-that-football-remains-a-wild-art-form

Marquee
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Not a new take, defensive organisation is much easier to coach and  has greater rewards than focusing on attacking cohesion. You are still likely to create chances even if you have poor attacking cohesion but if you have poor defensive cohesion then you are likely to be conceding a lot more than scoring. That's why teams that rely on attacking cohesion may struggle because its harder to coach and may take time for players to play quickly/instinctually that helps teams relying on attacking cohesion to unlock organised defenses. 

What I am seeing is to overcome attacking cohesion shortfall teams rely on individuals, either physical attributes or ability to beat players, that may be harder to defend against - Belgium height advantage over Japan, Brazil and France with pace and dribbling ability etc. 

It's why I think Loew picked a team of experienced players that may lack the dynamism of old as he was hoping that the history of them playing together helps with their attacking cohesion and why proactive teams sometimes struggle in WCs.

Phoenix Academy
360
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over 6 years

Lonegunmen wrote:

If 30 years ago you said Japan would be a force in football, 90% of fans would have laughed at you. Look at them now. Still Nieve in some defending but what a good team to watch.

That's right; 30 years ago you might have the odd underdog beating one of the favourites like Algeria v West Germany in 1982 but they were one off sort of results. Now we have some lesser known footballing nations performing consistently better in WC's (such as Japan) which has got to be good for the sport as a whole.

Just wish Brazil would get KO'd from this WC, can;t stand em and their theatrics 

Starting XI
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about 17 years

I also wonder if, in reality, the difference between a top player and a good pro is actually not all that much

I think it was Gary Neville who said cynically that in England a player become famous after a few flashy moments and next minute they're earning millions and playing for Chelsea

Woof Woof
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reg22 wrote:

I also wonder if, in reality, the difference between a top player and a good pro is actually not all that much

I think that this goes back to the point you made about consistency - at its heart, the difference lies in the ability to perform at the optimum level over an extended period of time.

The other point also has a quite a bit to do with the obsession with the Premier League, and the amount of money in it that is spent on players that aren't really top players, but get paid/advertised like they are.

Marquee
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Lonegunmen wrote:

If 30 years ago you said Japan would be a force in football, 90% of fans would have laughed at you. Look at them now. Still Nieve in some defending but what a good team to watch.

That's right; 30 years ago you might have the odd underdog beating one of the favourites like Algeria v West Germany in 1982 but they were one off sort of results. Now we have some lesser known footballing nations performing consistently better in WC's (such as Japan) which has got to be good for the sport as a whole.

Just wish Brazil would get KO'd from this WC, can;t stand em and their theatrics 

This is what Carlos Queiroz has to say

“In Asia, the development process is struggling at both national and youth level and by that I mean absolutely everything. It means coach education, youth development, infrastructure, facilities – everything – Europe is taking off and the others are being left behind.

“The only nations that are able to compete in the World Cup are those with luck and those who are able to play for clubs in Europe, and that’s not just in Asia but also Africa and elsewhere. People point to Morocco or Senegal as strong African nations, but what they really are is African players playing in Europe.

“I’ve been coaching for 37 years and I can tell the gap between Europe and the rest is only growing. Eight years ago it was bad, four years ago worse and now it’s even worse.”

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/24/w...

If you look back in 2010 and 2014 there were 5 teams not from UEFA or CONMEBOL in the round of 16 with only 2 in this WC

Woof Woof
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That's a bit overly dramatic from Queiroz. The fact is, and has been for probably at least 60 years, that the best players in the world tend to play for European clubs, regardless of where they had been born (with at least one very notable, but also very rare, exception). Europe has always had the best infastructure - that's not a surprise, it is by far the richest area where football has been highly popular the longest. But the reality is that others, and particularly African countries, have benefitted from their players utilising that infrastructure, which has led CAF to being the thrid best confederation in terms of the number of teams that are very comptetive at international level. And the fact is that the gap between UEFA and CONMEBOL on the one, and the rest on the other side, has significantly shrunk in the last 40 years.

I'm also not sure that the fact that only 2 non-UEFA/CONMEBOL sides made the Round of 16 in the World Cup means much. European sides, especially middling ones, tend to do better in European World Cups than non-European World Cups. For example, put the teams from Group E in this World Cup into a tournament hosted in Mexico and Brazil, and Costa Rica probably does a lot better, and Switzerland probably not quite as well. Add to that that African sides didn't produce the numbers progressing forward they usually do (partly to do with bad luck - Morocco was probably the unluckiest team in the competition, Nigeria was knocked out by a late Argentina goal, Senegal on the fair play rule), and that USA managed to mess up their qualifying so you ended up with Panama there, and the picture is probably a lot less bleak than it may look. 

Appiah without the pace
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el grapadura wrote:

That's a bit overly dramatic from Queiroz. The fact is, and has been for probably at least 60 years, that the best players in the world tend to play for European clubs, regardless of where they had been born (with at least one very notable, but also very rare, exception). Europe has always had the best infastructure - that's not a surprise, it is by far the richest area where football has been highly popular the longest. But the reality is that others, and particularly African countries, have benefitted from their players utilising that infrastructure, which has led CAF to being the thrid best confederation in terms of the number of teams that are very comptetive at international level. And the fact is that the gap between UEFA and CONMEBOL on the one, and the rest on the other side, has significantly shrunk in the last 40 years.

Moses Dyer?

Marquee
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2ndBest wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

That's a bit overly dramatic from Queiroz. The fact is, and has been for probably at least 60 years, that the best players in the world tend to play for European clubs, regardless of where they had been born (with at least one very notable, but also very rare, exception). Europe has always had the best infastructure - that's not a surprise, it is by far the richest area where football has been highly popular the longest. But the reality is that others, and particularly African countries, have benefitted from their players utilising that infrastructure, which has led CAF to being the thrid best confederation in terms of the number of teams that are very comptetive at international level. And the fact is that the gap between UEFA and CONMEBOL on the one, and the rest on the other side, has significantly shrunk in the last 40 years.

Moses Dyer?

Zico? 

:P

Marquee
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Bullion wrote:

2ndBest wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

That's a bit overly dramatic from Queiroz. The fact is, and has been for probably at least 60 years, that the best players in the world tend to play for European clubs, regardless of where they had been born (with at least one very notable, but also very rare, exception). Europe has always had the best infastructure - that's not a surprise, it is by far the richest area where football has been highly popular the longest. But the reality is that others, and particularly African countries, have benefitted from their players utilising that infrastructure, which has led CAF to being the thrid best confederation in terms of the number of teams that are very comptetive at international level. And the fact is that the gap between UEFA and CONMEBOL on the one, and the rest on the other side, has significantly shrunk in the last 40 years.

Moses Dyer?

Zico? 

:P

Actually he had a season or 2 in Italy - so really just the one very notable exception
Woof Woof
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I was thinking Pele, but yeah, Moses Dyer is a close second.

Zico I think played in Serie A for a few seasons in the 1980s if I remember correctly.

EDIT: Snap

Marquee
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Woof Woof
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Oska wrote:

Garrincha?

I did say at least one :-)

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