The man in the middle - Referee Admiration/Angst/Appointments thread

Starting XI
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thats the coaching we get, wait to see if the advantage happens, then signal for advantage. No advantage, bring it back to the offense..

Marquee
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almost 17 years

Yakcall wrote:

I was taught if it's worth a card then it is normally worth stopping play at the time too

Not a referee, but that sounds like bad advice.

Legend
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over 16 years

What are the guidelines for determining advantage?

Marquee
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almost 13 years

aitkenmike wrote:

Yakcall wrote:

I was taught if it's worth a card then it is normally worth stopping play at the time too

Not a referee, but that sounds like bad advice.

It's not to say that you still can't play advantage and come back to card someone but if someone has done enough to get a card there normally isn't advantage either. But with refereeing a lot of it isn't black or white. 

Listen here Fudgeface
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about 14 years

martinb wrote:

What are the guidelines for determining advantage?

a) Is there an advantage?

End.

Phoenix Academy
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over 16 years

patrick478 wrote:

martinb wrote:

What are the guidelines for determining advantage?

a) Is there an advantage?

End.

As with handball 'is there an advantage' is hugely subjective surely.

I've lost count of how many times a team has seen a player poleaxed only for the ref to wave play on simply because the ball ended up at the feet of a teammate who was surround by opposition and their only support is lying on the ground calling for a medic.

Some of the reffing at the Hilton Petone has been abysmal the last couple of weeks. I've seen a player grab another around the neck and throw them to the floor WWF style. A monster of a CH put a forearm smash into the back of a head of another which was clearly a 'get a big one in early so you dont get booked' assault and a player simply kick through the legs of an opponent with the ball 10 yards away.

All with refs not 10 yards away and all waved play on.

First Team Squad
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over 15 years

martyyn wrote:

patrick478 wrote:

martinb wrote:

What are the guidelines for determining advantage?

a) Is there an advantage?

End.

As with handball 'is there an advantage' is hugely subjective surely.

I've lost count of how many times a team has seen a player poleaxed only for the ref to wave play on simply because the ball ended up at the feet of a teammate who was surround by opposition and their only support is lying on the ground calling for a medic.

Some of the reffing at the Hilton Petone has been abysmal the last couple of weeks. I've seen a player grab another around the neck and throw them to the floor WWF style. A monster of a CH put a forearm smash into the back of a head of another which was clearly a 'get a big one in early so you dont get booked' assault and a player simply kick through the legs of an opponent with the ball 10 yards away.

All with refs not 10 yards away and all waved play on.

While I won't deny your chance to bitch about refs there's surely a larger culture problem here.

From Chatham cup to social I have heard "get a strong one in" ... "let him know you're there" ... "make him think twice!" countless times. I've never once seen a club discipline a player for basically assaulting someone.

Some people really need to reasses their priorities. These are amatuer leagues and everyone has work on Monday.

One in a million
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almost 17 years

Unless they're unemployed, but then they wouldn't be able to afford to play I guess.

Phoenix Academy
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150
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over 16 years

20 Legend wrote:

While I won't deny your chance to bitch about refs there's surely a larger culture problem here.

From Chatham cup to social I have heard "get a strong one in" ... "let him know you're there" ... "make him think twice!" countless times. I've never once seen a club discipline a player for basically assaulting someone.

Some people really need to reasses their priorities. These are amatuer leagues and everyone has work on Monday.

Hmmmm, "bitch" is an interesting choice of words. I would choose the word "frustration" myself.

Your comment is right though. Clubs, coaches and players should take responsibility for their actions. But is that not what a referee is on the pitch to do, to hold players responsible for their actions ?

Jag
Not Elite enough
730
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8K
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almost 17 years

patrick478 wrote:

martinb wrote:

What are the guidelines for determining advantage?

a) Is there an advantage?

End.

Where the incident happened

How severe was the incident

Is there a chance for an immediate and/or promising attack

What is the mood of the game

(Personally, I'd also throw the level of technical ability that the players have in there, too. No point in playing advantage if the players aren't good enough to use it!)

Also, it's not recommended to play advantage when the offence is serious foul play, violent conduct or will result in a 2nd yellow card, unless there is a very clear opportunity to score

Marquee
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over 16 years

Can someone with more reffing knowledge than me explain why Benzema's goal this morning was not disallowed?  He deliberately lunged for the ball, and got to it before it was more than a metre out of Karius' hands.  I don't see how it isn't a breach of Law 12?  Does he not prevent "the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands"?

tradition and history
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almost 17 years

Oska wrote:

Can someone with more reffing knowledge than me explain why Benzema's goal this morning was not disallowed?  He deliberately lunged for the ball, and got to it before it was more than a metre out of Karius' hands.  I don't see how it isn't a breach of Law 12?  Does he not prevent "the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands"?

As I understand it, the keeper threw the ball. Had he kicked it, it would have been a foul.

It appears that the ref got it right..Poor goalkeeping. really.

Tegal
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Head Sleuth
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almost 17 years

Leggy wrote:

Oska wrote:

Can someone with more reffing knowledge than me explain why Benzema's goal this morning was not disallowed?  He deliberately lunged for the ball, and got to it before it was more than a metre out of Karius' hands.  I don't see how it isn't a breach of Law 12?  Does he not prevent "the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands"?

As I understand it, the keeper threw the ball. Had he kicked it, it would have been a foul.

It appears that the ref got it right..Poor goalkeeping. really.

Yeah I wondered why it wasn’t a free kick too. But then upon reflection I think the referees got it right. 

I hate seeing goals like that stand. But there was daylight between the keeper releasing the ball and it being intercepted. He didn’t technically stop the keeper from releasing the ball. 

Starting XI
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over 14 years

Leggy wrote:

As I understand it, the keeper threw the ball. Had he kicked it, it would have been a foul.

Curious why you think would have  been a foul in that situation?

tradition and history
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almost 17 years

zonknz wrote:

Leggy wrote:

As I understand it, the keeper threw the ball. Had he kicked it, it would have been a foul.

Curious why you think would have  been a foul in that situation?

That is what I have read.

Starting XI
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Nothing in the laws around this one. The goalie is in clear control whilst in his hands, chooses to release, and it's intercepted after. If he had kicked out of hands and had been intercepted in a similar fashion to the throw, there would be no foul.

Benzema doesn't touch the ball till after it has travelled  some distance; that's the key to this situation. 

The goalie is considered in possession even if he dropping from hands to feet to kick, but the ball has moved already before Benzema intercepts it.

Stuff have a shot at the moment of release here - https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/world-game/10...

, and the video as well.  There is a good 2 metres between them, and the goalie is moving towards benzema! it's just a terrible error of judgement by the keeper.

Edit - also some interesting discussion here : https://www.refchat.co.uk/threads/champions-league...

Marquee
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almost 17 years

There is a particular replay (from the back of the goal IIRC) where you can clearly see the GK releasing the ball, Benzema lunging and then intercepting, and the ball rebounding into the goal.

Seeing the replay from the side of the pitch misled me too into thinking it was a foul, but that second replay cleared any doubts for me.

Marquee
1.1K
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over 12 years
Jag
Not Elite enough
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almost 17 years

Leggy wrote:

zonknz wrote:

Leggy wrote:

As I understand it, the keeper threw the ball. Had he kicked it, it would have been a foul.

Curious why you think would have  been a foul in that situation?

That is what I have read.

Preventing a keeper from releasing the ball, whether kicking or throwing it, is an Indirect Free Kick offence.

IFK awarded 'if a player prevents the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from the hands or kicks or attempts to kick the ball when the goalkeeper is in the process of releasing it'. As the ball had already been released by the keeper, no free kick.

Legend
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17K
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almost 17 years

Van Dijk pushes Ramos into him ffs.

Legend
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over 14 years

I wanna touch a little more on what Tam said

The optics of the play are thus

-the keeper could have freely picked anywhere to roll that ball. He was not denied the opportunity to release it where he wanted.

-the attacker was on a maintained path. The run was around chasing a through ball, and his actions were not to impede distribution.

-this is very much an intercept, not ‘preventing the GK to release the ball’

Taking the above aside and removing all rationale to law, when you look at this through untainted eyes, it’s just a howler and stands as a goal.

I regrettably am subscribe to an US orientated MugBook page on referees of about 6.5k subscribers in the hope I might learn something. They see and read the game and laws so differently in that country. Some of the commentary coming out of this page on this goal just makes me shake my head for the shear stupidity. It kinda illustrates to me that even with law and common sense, not everyone arrives at the same destination.

Marquee
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over 16 years

Is there a definition of 'release the ball" available?  At what point after it's left his hands is it considered to be in play?

Marquee
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over 12 years

Oska wrote:

Is there a definition of 'release the ball" available?  At what point after it's left his hands is it considered to be in play?

I think from ??? memory it is Control  - The ⚽️ was in his control until he intentionally released  it. ⚽️⚽️⚽️⚽️
Marquee
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over 16 years

But when a goalkeeper is kicking from their hands the ball is not released until it leaves their foot?

Starting XI
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over 8 years

Oska wrote:

But when a goalkeeper is kicking from their hands the ball is not released until it leaves their foot?

Because it is still under "control" until he kicks it. The drop is considered controlled.
One in a million
4K
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9.5K
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almost 17 years

Kurto getting wiped out by an offside striker tonight shows what an ass the law ( or interpretation of it) is. If the refs would call offside when he's making a run for the ball, not wait to see if he gets it, our goalie would still be in one piece.
Change the friggen law! It's a safety issue.

Marquee
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over 12 years

Kurto getting wiped out by an offside striker tonight shows what an ass the law ( or interpretation of it) is. If the refs would call offside when he's making a run for the ball, not wait to see if he gets it, our goalie would still be in one piece.
Change the friggen law! It's a safety issue.

Slow the action down: From behind the goal. If the player was not offside Kurto would have conceded a penalty as he missed the ball and  took the player out in the box. 

PS: very sickening to see him lifeless on the ground. Hope he is ok

Starting XI
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over 14 years

Coaching is such that ar's must signal early if it's one on one with the goalie and there is collision risk.

Tegal
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Head Sleuth
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almost 17 years

zonknz wrote:

Coaching is such that ar's must signal early if it's one on one with the goalie and there is collision risk.

A symptom of VAR. ARs often don’t flag offsides in case it results in a goal, in which case they can use the VAR as a safety net. 

So VAR resulted in an incorrect send off, didn’t award us a penalty and injured our goalkeeper. 

Not a good night for the VAR system. 

Starting XI
480
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2.1K
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over 14 years

Is this the ultimate "but I got the ball ref" challenge? https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/a2d7st/sc...

Answers on a postcard please.

Starting XI
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over 14 years

What I like about the clip is just how well the ref deals with the situation, and prevents a player melee.

Legend
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over 14 years

1: who picked up the O/S?

2: *cynical Chris* but he is going for the ball ref. He just slid in ref. No intent ref. The keeper needs to move ref. No studs ref.

3: the reason for pulling the card quick is because it shows decisive action in a situation where seeing that the decisive action has been taken, will cool down players. You need a truckload of different techniques. Sometimes you calm it down and then sanction. Other times, get the card out early so players running in realise you have dealt with it and they then lose steam. Each player needs to be managed differently just like no two children are the same (assuming readers have two kids) I always like to say to a player that was down ‘hey i’ve cautioned him/ red carded him’ so they don’t get up and seek retribution...

Marquee
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almost 17 years

zonknz wrote:

Is this the ultimate "but I got the ball ref" challenge? https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/a2d7st/sc...

Answers on a postcard please.

Wow, that was bad.  

Question for Chris - The commentators (I know, don't listen to commentators on rule issues) made it seem like the main issue was whether the keeper had a hand on the ball and had it under control.  For me, it looked like a red card even if the keepers hand came off the ball the way the attacker went through the ball and into the keeper dangerously?  Am I wrong there.

Starting XI
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almost 9 years

aitkenmike wrote:

zonknz wrote:

Is this the ultimate "but I got the ball ref" challenge? https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/a2d7st/sc...

Answers on a postcard please.

Wow, that was bad.  

Question for Chris - The commentators (I know, don't listen to commentators on rule issues) made it seem like the main issue was whether the keeper had a hand on the ball and had it under control.  For me, it looked like a red card even if the keepers hand off the ball the way the attacker went through the ball and into the keeper dangerously?  Am I wrong there.

It was a definite Red but that sort of challenge isn't uncommon in Scottish football - although the refs there do often make the A-League ones look brilliant!

Legend
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over 14 years

The goalkeeper just needs to have a finger on the ball to be deemed in control of it, and this, it’s unplayable by opponents

Control or not, that tackle was a shocker and I think pretty much everyone should be able to see that as a red card

Marquee
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over 12 years
Special summit to heal bitter rift

DECEMBER 18, 2018

Football Federation Australia and the referees and coaching associations will meet early next year in a bid to repair a fractured relationship that threatens to divide the football community.

Professional Referees Association president Stebre Delovski told

Football Federation Australia and the referees and coaching associations will meet early next year in a bid to repair a fractured relationship that threatens to divide the football community.

Professional Referees Association president Stebre Delovski told The Australian yesterday he will sit down with A-League boss Greg O'Rourke and Professional Coaches president Phil Moss in the wake of a damaging week for the sport.

The referees took an unprecedented stand during all five A-League games last weekend when they covered the word “Respect” on their shirt sleeve in protest over FFA’s failure to sanction Wellington Phoenix coach Mark Rudan for comments made following his side’s loss to Perth Glory recently.

“It couldn’t have been more one-sided,” Rudan said at the time. “I’ve never seen anything like it. It got to the point where I had to laugh. I turned to my coaching staff and it was hilarious. It was a joke, an absolute joke. If he (referee Adam Kersey) can sleep well at night, good on him. But you know, he’s cost us — he certainly has.”

In a situation that has pitted coaches against coaches, Newcastle Jets boss Ernie Merrick subsequently came out in support of the referees on Monday, accusing FFA of double standards in that the head body fined him last season for comments he made about referees yet let Rudan, who he did not name, off the hook.

And now the situation is likely to blow up even further amid suggestions FFA could act against a coach for comments made following a game on the weekend.

If the coach is sanctioned it is certain to lead to more angst regarding the Rudan situation.

Delovski said the situation has got out of hand because of FFA’s failure to take action.
“This has been going on for a number of years where no action has been taken toward these types of comments,” Delovski said.
“This is the culture now creeping in, not just in football but Australian sport, where it is almost acceptable to have a crack at the referee. Well, enough is enough. The fact there was no action (taken in the Rudan case) was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

“We had spoken to FFA for two weeks and they chose not to do anything and we said ‘OK, we have no choice we need to make a stand on this one’.
“We followed through with our decision to cover up the Respect badge. A line was crossed in which a referee’s integrity was questioned and he was basically called a cheat. That is not acceptable.”

Delovski, a former A-League and FIFA rated referee, says something needs to change and called on coaches to have a look at themselves:

“The coaches association came out and said referees are amateurish, but they should look at themselves and how they are addressing the behaviour of some of their members.
“I’ve spoken to Greg O’Rourke in the last few days and to Phil Moss from the coaches and we are having a meeting early new year to discuss a way forward because, at the moment, the message to the coaches is that they have a free hit to have a go at referees.

“What sort of message is that to send to the other 9000 refs in the country?

If these types of comments are deemed acceptable and continue then we will continue to have these issues.”

LG
Legend
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23K
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over 16 years

How about the sharke referees looking in a mirror and accepting they are sharke. And they need some serious workcamps to bring them up to a, to be taken serious, level. 

That article reeks of head buried in sand material. I expect nothing less from Delovski. He wasn't that good a ref himself.

Their standards are so low, they don't even make it onto the coupons. And please justify why do the Phoenix always get the brand new refs with no experience? You know they are going to obey their masters orders and do their best to ensure the Nix get nothing. 

Fudge them and Fudge the Referees Association for being so biasedly blinkered.

Marquee
1.1K
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over 12 years

Quietly awaiting the press release from Australian Professional Referees Association re Justifying VAR calls. #WSWvADL

LG
Legend
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23K
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over 16 years

The sooner VAR is gone the better. We are better off with just one person making a screwup instead of 4...and holding the game up whilst doing so.

Starting XI
480
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over 14 years

Jarred Gillett is leaving the A-League, and is moving to the UK. This is part of his day job, by the sounds of it, but he has been placed in Referee Select Group 2. This group is the second tier of Pro refs in England, who typically referee Championship games.

https://www.efl.com/news/2019/january/jarred-gille...

The man in the middle - Referee Admiration/Angst/Appointments thread

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