Closed for new posts
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If you were to take the equivalents of Pogba, Maguire and McTominay out of most teams, there would be pretty big issues. Take them out of this United team when the replacements are Fred, Jones and Pereira, there are major issues. Fred has been playing alright but when Pereira (or Matic) is the only partner next to him, its going to be a long day. Jones was the only other fit CB. 3-1 was not too bad. 

I hear people questioning if there is a plan, but while there mightn't be such a clear style of play like Guardiola, Rodgers, Klopp etc seem to have, that has been the case with United's best teams. We bullied and countered Arsenal, we were patient and persistent against teams with low blocks, etc etc. 

The current plan, with Ole, Phelan, Carrick and McKenna, seems to be to get back to something like this. And when most of the style is broken, inconsistent and rotten, you have to really go back to basics. Hence the focus on players with enthusiasm (often younger player), adaptability and the drive that is needed to play for United. 

Phoenix Academy
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valeo wrote:

It's quite insane to me that one of the richest clubs in the world, who has spent a crazy amount over the last few years, is starting a midfield of Lingard, Pereira and Fred v City. Just...why?

I thought Arsenal had it bad in CM, but jesus.

The answer is because the two best ones are injured and after one transfer window with the current manager, none have been bought in. 

I also think if you were to account for the fact that United will always be required to pay more for players as clubs know they have deep pockets (not sure how you'd do this, maybe just total transfers by a market value?) then the spending in the past few years has not been keeping up with other clubs. I understand that market value is also what clubs are prepared to pay for a player but as soon as United is in for the player, the price goes up. 

Legend
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Tekkers wrote:

If you were to take the equivalents of Pogba, Maguire and McTominay out of most teams, there would be pretty big issues.

For me, Pogba and Maguire have both been hit and miss since you signed them.

McTominay has been very good.

But Liverpool have got it way worse with Keita, Fabinho and Matip out.

I think the main issue there right now is simply poor performance in the transfer market. I used to think management was the issue, but  you guys have made some really good points about that (leggy, 20legend, tekkers), that have convinced me the management is not a primary issue.

You either don't get the players you want, or you overpay for them and they don't deliver.

I was discussing with a mate this morning, in the years you've had Mourinho and Solsjkaer, what signings have been successes? The only ones we could point to were Daniel James and Wan-Bissaka, and even then it's early doors, the jury is still way out. To be fair Maguire could potentially fall into the same boat as well.  

Your best performers are either academy products, or signed over 2 years ago - Mctominay, Rashford, Martial, de Gea, Lindelof and the likes. Such bad performance in the transfer market...

Phoenix Academy
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For example, from Transfermarkt:

United:

Maguire for $87m but MV was $50m

AWB for $55m but MV was $35m

Lukaku for $85m but MV was $50m

Lindelof for $35 but MV was $22m

Liverpool:

Alisson for $62.5m but MV was $60m

Keita for $60m but MV was $65m

Fabinho for $45m which is same as MV

Salah for $42m but MV is $35m

Many more examples for other clubs too

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paulm wrote:
Tekkers wrote:

If you were to take the equivalents of Pogba, Maguire and McTominay out of most teams, there would be pretty big issues.

For me, Pogba and Maguire have both been hit and miss since you signed them.

McTominay has been very good.

But Liverpool have got it way worse with Keita, Fabinho and Matip out.

I think the main issue there right now is simply poor performance in the transfer market. I used to think management was the issue, but  you guys have made some really good points about that (leggy, 20legend, tekkers), that have convinced me the management is not a primary issue.

You either don't get the players you want, or you overpay for them and they don't deliver.

I was discussing with a mate this morning, in the years you've had Mourinho and Solsjkaer, what signings have been successes? The only ones we could point to were Daniel James and Wan-Bissaka, and even then it's early doors, the jury is still way out. To be fair Maguire could potentially fall into the same boat as well.  

Your best performers are either academy products, or signed over 2 years ago - Mctominay, Rashford, Martial, de Gea, Lindelof and the likes. Such bad performance in the transfer market...

Both Ole signings.

Maguire has been hit and miss, but then you see Lindeloff next to Jones and it becomes apparent Maguire is covering two positions!

When Ole has the quality of Ndombele, Eriksen, and even Alli in midfield, I'll start to judge him harsher.

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Tekkers wrote:

For example, from Transfermarkt:

United:

Maguire for $87m but MV was $50m

AWB for $55m but MV was $35m

Lukaku for $85m but MV was $50m

Lindelof for $35 but MV was $22m

Liverpool:

Alisson for $62.5m but MV was $60m

Keita for $60m but MV was $65m

Fabinho for $45m which is same as MV

Salah for $42m but MV is $35m

Many more examples for other clubs too

Market Value when they were signed, or Market Value as of right now? Really important distinction...

Legend
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20 Legend wrote:

When Ole has the quality of Ndombele, Eriksen, and even Alli in midfield, I'll start to judge him harsher.

Dont worry, Mourinho is busy being Mourinho, already threw Ndombele under the bus in a presser, so he'll be rubbish soon enough

Phoenix Academy
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paulm wrote:
Tekkers wrote:

If you were to take the equivalents of Pogba, Maguire and McTominay out of most teams, there would be pretty big issues.

For me, Pogba and Maguire have both been hit and miss since you signed them.

McTominay has been very good.

But Liverpool have got it way worse with Keita, Fabinho and Matip out.

I think the main issue there right now is simply poor performance in the transfer market. I used to think management was the issue, but  you guys have made some really good points about that (leggy, 20legend, tekkers), that have convinced me the management is not a primary issue.

You either don't get the players you want, or you overpay for them and they don't deliver.

I was discussing with a mate this morning, in the years you've had Mourinho and Solsjkaer, what signings have been successes? The only ones we could point to were Daniel James and Wan-Bissaka, and even then it's early doors, the jury is still way out. To be fair Maguire could potentially fall into the same boat as well.  

Your best performers are either academy products, or signed over 2 years ago - Mctominay, Rashford, Martial, de Gea, Lindelof and the likes. Such bad performance in the transfer market...

You would still say that Pogba and Maguire are improvements on the previous players. 

The poor performance in the market is also linked to having so different managers. Players like Depay and Mata suited LVG but didnt work hard enough for Jose. Lukaku and Matic suit Jose, but not so much for Ole. 

The fact that the two (maybe 3) successes in the market have come recently and with Ole, shows there is more promise than people think.

Phoenix Academy
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paulm wrote:
Tekkers wrote:

For example, from Transfermarkt:

United:

Maguire for $87m but MV was $50m

AWB for $55m but MV was $35m

Lukaku for $85m but MV was $50m

Lindelof for $35 but MV was $22m

Liverpool:

Alisson for $62.5m but MV was $60m

Keita for $60m but MV was $65m

Fabinho for $45m which is same as MV

Salah for $42m but MV is $35m

Many more examples for other clubs too

Market Value when they were signed, or Market Value as of right now? Really important distinction...

MV when signed, transfermarkt has the MV on transfer date

Legend
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Wow, that is quite revealing. You guys are actually struggling to get anything done.

When will they try and improve this? Surely the people involved with the transfer side of things need sorting out?

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paulm wrote:

Wow, that is quite revealing. You guys are actually struggling to get anything done.

When will they try and improve this? Surely the people involved with the transfer side of things need sorting out?

Its a combination of the business people involved and agents / other clubs knowing the state of where we are. Unfortunately it will only improve when the on field improves, so until then, it will be 1 or 2 big transfers a season, with a James like transfer to supplement, as opposed to the City like clear outs that they have been able to do. 

For example, Ole has such a good connection with Haaland, good enough to know that he was going to on a Christmas trip instead of a flight to Manchester when those reports came out, but yet the agent asks for a release clause and a sell on % for an 19yo so we decline / don't give in. He moves to Dortmund who already have Sancho, T Hazard, Reus, Gotze and Alcacer in their forwards. Crazy

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re: Tekkers, by crazy are you referring to the move or just admiring BVB's attacking depth? I'm guessing the latter because 4/5 you listed are wide players or AMs, and Alcacer is rather injury prone, so for Haaland it's an ideal fit. Dortmund also know they'll be getting a huge sum for Sancho in the summer so were in a position to go above and beyond what they normally spend.

Dortmund's whole operating model is to be a staging post for the likes of Haaland to stay for a few years at best before moving on, so they've got a lot more leeway when it comes to clauses etc designed to facilitate an exit. Whereas a United are going in with a long term view that ideally encompasses multiple extensions. When you've got a greedy operator like Raiola involved it's also obvious to see the motivation for moving to an interim club before bouncing him on to a richer one, with another round of agent fees and signing bonuses.

At least for Haaland's sake this is also a good football move. Logical progression from Austria to Germany, a good tactical fit, and despite their large domestic fanbase a lot less pressure than the spotlight of the Prem and United. There are also a myriad of transfers you can point to (Dembele to Barca being an obvious BVB-relevant case) which illustrate the pitfalls of making the 'big' move too soon. For all his form and goals he's still a young and developing player, so why rush things.

Legend
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Just seen the Pereira OG for the first time. What an absolute comedy of errors that was and pretty much sums up United at the moment. You think of some of the players we've been blessed to see in a United shirt in the last 10-15 years alone and it really does make you realise how damn far we've fallen. 

What's worse is, we aren't going to sign anyone in January are we? You just know it. Look at Liverpool, top of the league by 13 points, European and 'World Champions', and they have a signing wrapped up and announced by 1 January. We are on our knees desperate for numbers and we aren't going to sign anyone. If you didn't laugh you'd cry.

tradition and history
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Martial wrote:

Just seen the Pereira OG for the first time. What an absolute comedy of errors that was and pretty much sums up United at the moment. You think of some of the players we've been blessed to see in a United shirt in the last 10-15 years alone and it really does make you realise how damn far we've fallen. 

What's worse is, we aren't going to sign anyone in January are we? You just know it. Look at Liverpool, top of the league by 13 points, European and 'World Champions', and they have a signing wrapped up and announced by 1 January. We are on our knees desperate for numbers and we aren't going to sign anyone. If you didn't laugh you'd cry.

It was men against boys. On that performance not one of our players would get in the City side. From first touch,pace, football nouse and giving the ball away we were just embarrassing. For all the critics he has had Matic was by far our best player. He may not be quick but he has skill and a football brain that Fred,Lingard  and  AP have not got between them. 

There is not point in sacking Ole as the players are just not good enough. In saying that he is not up to being the manager of this great club and if he stays we will be in the same or worse position this time next year.

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To make matters worse it looks like Maguire might be out for a week or two. He should have come off at half time in the Wolves game as he was visibly injured. What's up with Ole letting players play through injury and making things worse? First Pogba, now Maguire. I get that the players said they're fine but that's negligent management with an already thin squad.

Axel has to play this weekend now. If Jones starts we're doomed, even against Norwich.

Phoenix Academy
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Martial wrote:

To make matters worse it looks like Maguire might be out for a week or two. He should have come off at half time in the Wolves game as he was visibly injured. What's up with Ole letting players play through injury and making things worse? First Pogba, now Maguire. I get that the players said they're fine but that's negligent management with an already thin squad.

Axel has to play this weekend now. If Jones starts we're doomed, even against Norwich.

Maguire - I think you will find that Lindelof, Maguire and Jones have been the only fit CBs for a while now. And since Jones' horror show performance against Sheffield Utd you would not want to rest the other two often. Reports have Bailly, Rojo, Tuanzebe and FosuMensah returning near the end of the month, but likely are further away. 

Pogba - Ignoring his inability to publicly say he doesnt want to leave, reports were that he came back for those two game in order to show that he was committed to the cause but when the injury did not improve further, he got a second opinion and hence the surgery. When Fred and Pereira had to play 2 or 3 games in a row because they were the only fit CMs you cant really argue against seeing if Pogba is fit. 

You cant say he should rest players because of the thin squad when the thin squad means he cannot rest players. 

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almost 11 years
Tekkers wrote:
Martial wrote:

To make matters worse it looks like Maguire might be out for a week or two. He should have come off at half time in the Wolves game as he was visibly injured. What's up with Ole letting players play through injury and making things worse? First Pogba, now Maguire. I get that the players said they're fine but that's negligent management with an already thin squad.

Axel has to play this weekend now. If Jones starts we're doomed, even against Norwich.

Maguire - I think you will find that Lindelof, Maguire and Jones have been the only fit CBs for a while now. And since Jones' horror show performance against Sheffield Utd you would not want to rest the other two often. Reports have Bailly, Rojo, Tuanzebe and FosuMensah returning near the end of the month, but likely are further away. 

Pogba - Ignoring his inability to publicly say he doesnt want to leave, reports were that he came back for those two game in order to show that he was committed to the cause but when the injury did not improve further, he got a second opinion and hence the surgery. When Fred and Pereira had to play 2 or 3 games in a row because they were the only fit CMs you cant really argue against seeing if Pogba is fit. 

You cant say he should rest players because of the thin squad when the thin squad means he cannot rest players. 

There's a difference between resting players which I agree he can't really do, and leaving a player on for 60 minutes when they're clearly injured during an actual game and you've got a fit, albeit unreliable, central defender on the bench.

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Ole takes Maguire off, Jones makes a mistake, Ole is criticised of being a "lightweight" and making a poor decision.

People need to stop assuming Ole is stupid, and start giving him the benefit of the doubt for some of the context. Maybe Maguire said he was fine at half time. Maybe a physio mis-diagnosed?

tradition and history
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20 Legend wrote:

Ole takes Maguire off, Jones makes a mistake, Ole is criticised of being a "lightweight" and making a poor decision.

People need to stop assuming Ole is stupid, and start giving him the benefit of the doubt for some of the context. Maybe Maguire said he was fine at half time. Maybe a physio mis-diagnosed?

Yea, like picking Lingard, AP and Fred before Matic.

He is a clown.

Phoenix Academy
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almost 11 years
20 Legend wrote:

Ole takes Maguire off, Jones makes a mistake, Ole is criticised of being a "lightweight" and making a poor decision.

People need to stop assuming Ole is stupid, and start giving him the benefit of the doubt for some of the context. Maybe Maguire said he was fine at half time. Maybe a physio mis-diagnosed?

I never blamed Ole for the mistakes Jones (or anybody else for that matter) made the other night. Anyway, in other news looks like Ashley Young is leaving for Inter. I've been quick to bag him on here and more public forums but he's been a good pro for United for the best part of a decade. Not my favourite player to ever wear the shirt, and has been a bit of a scapegoat of the post-Fergie era at times but can't fault his professionalism and hunger. Hopefully he does well at Inter for a couple of years.

Legend
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One big takeaway is the great form Rashford is in. He's a better player than I thought he would be. 

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Leggy wrote:
20 Legend wrote:

Ole takes Maguire off, Jones makes a mistake, Ole is criticised of being a "lightweight" and making a poor decision.

People need to stop assuming Ole is stupid, and start giving him the benefit of the doubt for some of the context. Maybe Maguire said he was fine at half time. Maybe a physio mis-diagnosed?

Yea, like picking Lingard, AP and Fred before Matic.

He is a clown.

While I agree that Matic has actually played alright when called upon recently, he had made it clear he didnt want to stay around given he was behind McTominay, Pogba and Fred in the pecking order. Therefore the other three fit senior players who better fit the direction of the club, play. 

I think its very narrow minded to think that Ole is doing a bad job. The clowns are those that have been involved in the club for the past 6 seasons and who think they have given the best platform for the manager and the team to perform. 

You look at our squad, which includes only 3 players Ole has been involved in buying (all good buys) and you'd say its about the 5th best in the league. Oh look, we are 5th in the league. Its not where we want to be, but until you

Phoenix Academy
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Martial wrote:
20 Legend wrote:

Ole takes Maguire off, Jones makes a mistake, Ole is criticised of being a "lightweight" and making a poor decision.

People need to stop assuming Ole is stupid, and start giving him the benefit of the doubt for some of the context. Maybe Maguire said he was fine at half time. Maybe a physio mis-diagnosed?

I never blamed Ole for the mistakes Jones (or anybody else for that matter) made the other night. Anyway, in other news looks like Ashley Young is leaving for Inter. I've been quick to bag him on here and more public forums but he's been a good pro for United for the best part of a decade. Not my favourite player to ever wear the shirt, and has been a bit of a scapegoat of the post-Fergie era at times but can't fault his professionalism and hunger. Hopefully he does well at Inter for a couple of years.

Totally agree. My worry is that from the sounds of it, he is the one who demands high standards off the pitch and even though he doesnt really maintain the high standards that I am sure he expects on the pitch, we already lack leaders so others need to step up. 

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I never thought I'd say this at the start of the season, but I think Jack Grealish would be a great signing for that number 10 role. Has the arrogance and swagger of a United player and unphased by the big stage. Has grown into that captaincy role very well at Villa. Best player on pitch when they came to Old Trafford.

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Martial wrote:

I never thought I'd say this at the start of the season, but I think Jack Grealish would be a great signing for that number 10 role. Has the arrogance and swagger of a United player and unphased by the big stage. Has grown into that captaincy role very well at Villa. Best player on pitch when they came to Old Trafford.

I think he will keep Aston Villa up and then leave in the summer.

If he had a latin name he'd be taken a lot more seriously.

WeeNix
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Martial wrote:

I never thought I'd say this at the start of the season, but I think Jack Grealish would be a great signing for that number 10 role. Has the arrogance and swagger of a United player and unphased by the big stage. Has grown into that captaincy role very well at Villa. Best player on pitch when they came to Old Trafford.

That's the problem. There are currently too many with the arrogance and swagger.

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Tekkers wrote:

While I agree that Matic has actually played alright when called upon recently, he had made it clear he didnt want to stay around given he was behind McTominay, Pogba and Fred in the pecking order. Therefore the other three fit senior players who better fit the direction of the club, play. 

You don't put him in the squad as if he's an equal part of it, then treat him like he's not an equal part of it, and expect the fans to figure that out and understand. That makes zero sense.

Solsjkaer must simply believe the others are better starting options than Matic at the moment, rightly or wrongly.

Phoenix Academy
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paulm wrote:
Tekkers wrote:

While I agree that Matic has actually played alright when called upon recently, he had made it clear he didnt want to stay around given he was behind McTominay, Pogba and Fred in the pecking order. Therefore the other three fit senior players who better fit the direction of the club, play. 

You don't put him in the squad as if he's an equal part of it, then treat him like he's not an equal part of it, and expect the fans to figure that out and understand. That makes zero sense.

Solsjkaer must simply believe the others are better starting options than Matic at the moment, rightly or wrongly.

Do you really think managers should ignore the players attitude towards staying at the club when picking their teams? Obviously there are cases where some players are better professionals than others but Matic commented "? ?" on a benchwarmers post linking him to Jose at Spurs in November, and since has not committed to staying here. 

And then if Ole was to drop him totally and then Andreas or Fred becomes unavailable, he would have lost his focus completely and Ole will be forced to play a kid (not the worst option but better this happens at a controlled pace). 

I do think that Matic would be a better option over Andreas but he just isnt as committed and thats what Ole wants to encourage. 

Legend
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Tekkers wrote:

Do you really think managers should ignore the players attitude towards staying at the club when picking their teams?

Do you really think that's what I said?

I'm saying that if you don't want to be at a club, you don't just get benched. You get sent to the reserves or out on loan. Every player in the match day squad needs to be committed, otherwise there's no point having them there at all, regardless of who else is available.

You seem to be claiming that an instagram message prompted Solsjkaer to employ a policy where Matic can't be in the starting eleven, but can be on the bench, which is just weird.

In any case he's started 3 of your last 4 games, when other options were available, so it's obviously not true.

My guess would be that Solsjkaer wanted someone a little more mobile in midfield against Man City. Whether it was the right decision or not is another discussion.

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paulm wrote:
Tekkers wrote:

Do you really think managers should ignore the players attitude towards staying at the club when picking their teams?

Do you really think that's what I said?

I'm saying that if you don't want to be at a club, you don't just get benched. You get sent to the reserves or out on loan. Every player in the match day squad needs to be committed, otherwise there's no point having them there at all, regardless of who else is available.

You seem to be claiming that an instagram message prompted Solsjkaer to employ a policy where Matic can't be in the starting eleven, but can be on the bench, which is just weird.

In any case he's started 3 of your last 4 games, when other options were available, so it's obviously not true.

My guess would be that Solsjkaer wanted someone a little more mobile in midfield against Man City. Whether it was the right decision or not is another discussion.

I supposed we both took each others statements too literally. There is a degree of commitment, not just yes or no and lots of things are balanced together when picking each team. The instagram comment was to indicate his public position but it clearly wasn't the driver for benching him. 

The January window will really show how committed the board is to the manager, as its clear players need to come in, simply for depth. If nothing happens, I really cant see how people can keep putting the majority of the blame on Ole

Legend
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Fair call tekkers. Will be interesting to see what happens to him in jan. I thought he went pretty well against us, and was surprised at his skill to create that opportunity for periera that he blasted into the side netting. Didnt know he had that in him.
Hes getting on now, if you can get coin for him you probably should, but if pogba doesnt come back into the side and you cant sign someone else then you might need him.

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Lots of momentum behind Bruno Fernandes deal this morning.

...standby for City/Liverpool bid to derail the whole thing.

We'll still need another midfielder. Hopefully there's also some truth behind van de Beek rumours.

WeeNix
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20 Legend wrote:

Lots of momentum behind Bruno Fernandes deal this morning.

...standby for City/Liverpool bid to derail the whole thing.

We'll still need another midfielder. Hopefully there's also some truth behind van de Beek rumours.

Both Fernandes and de Beek are the sort of player we need. Fingers crossed
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Actually seems like it might happen this time. Last window, it seemed like mostly rumours you hear when trying to start a bidding war. 

Now it seems like the more money has been made available for him, given the lack of options at CM and CAM. Hasnt played as a #8 often but lets see. 

But from a business sense it shows how poor United have been with this transfer, as since last window he has signed a new contract (which either meant more wages and/or higher release clause). 

Good performance against a lower table team today, cant take that for granted either. 

Phoenix Academy
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It's the hope that kills you.

Hopefully Spurs wrap this Gedson Fernandes deal up to reduce the likelihood of them moving for Bruno Fernandes. Seems they were our biggest rival for him in the Summer.

Phoenix Academy
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paulm wrote:

Fair call tekkers. Will be interesting to see what happens to him in jan. I thought he went pretty well against us, and was surprised at his skill to create that opportunity for periera that he blasted into the side netting. Didnt know he had that in him.
Hes getting on now, if you can get coin for him you probably should, but if pogba doesnt come back into the side and you cant sign someone else then you might need him.

After watching the game again, its again noted how the balance of Fred, Matic and Mata worked well. Clearly Norwich didnt put them under much pressure but they kept things tight in the middle. Fred played more on the right of the two, which isnt his natural side, but it worked well. As previously said, I would keep Matic around for another season or so until McTominay grows a bit more. When Andreas is  playing in attacking areas, things look a lot better

Starting XI
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I'll take it.

Brandon Williams is going to be our left back for a long, long time and I'm loving it. We have one of the best backup keepers in Romero and it was nice to see Mata and Matic looking influential. Hope Rashford is ok, but roll on Watford in the next round.

Phoenix Academy
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Looks like Fernandes is another instance of selling clubs f**king us around. Agreement got close before they increased what the want and United holding firm. When Sporting accepted Spurs’s $45m+ in the summer (Fernandes said no) but Sporting wants $80m now? Better to wait and get Maddison / Grealish later. 

Rashford seems out of the game tomorrow. Seemed like our only chance was with him there, but maybe the rest put in the effort to make up for the loss of him. 

Phoenix Academy
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over 16 years

Could have been worse, could have been better. you would expect Martial to find that bottom corner more often than not but times like that have happened more frequently than they should. 

United are just so bad from set pieces (particularly against the top teams) and it is so frustrating. Trying to beat teams with the sort of blunt instrument we have when you are missing Pogba, McTominay and now Rashford is pretty tough. 

Its going to be a tough season but with the squad we have, we are about par. 

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