Phoenix Academy
130
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440
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over 16 years

Too many things don’t sit right about this whole situation and looking at the feelings across social media most football people are not happy with what has happened and some serious question and answers are needed so we can move on.

Totally agree with all of what you said and this bit particularly. Where is the NZF Board in all of this? How can a CEO be allowed to make such a fudge up publicly and seemingly tell porkies? I have seldom seen such strong sentiment with so many supporters angry. often it is balanced but it is overwhelming here and is doing immense damage yet again to credibility and the brand of NZF. Announcing a review is not what the fans are looking for and its not going to cover up the debacle of exiting Des!

Legend
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16K
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about 17 years

did Des say he would work through to the 2021 Olympics for free? If not what is everyone banging on about exactly?

Phoenix Academy
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440
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over 16 years

did Des say he would work through to the 2021 Olympics for free? If not what is everyone banging on about exactly?

Uhmmm, maybe the fact that NZF have given contradictory messages and it has upset a lot of people. as they appear to have not been honest in their communication

Trialist
25
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almost 17 years

I don’t know about Des but something came out when the news of his assistants being released due to finances, that they had said they would continue do it for nothing. Hence I said staff in my earlier post. 

S50
Trialist
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over 4 years

I think if there was a genuine financial reason behind it then people would be inclined to shrug their shoulders and move on. However it appears that it isn't the case. Even if it was, the govt have committed to Olympic funding and fifa are also handing out cash. Its also been said that both miya and Mark oates had offered to work for free and Des apparently was happy to work with NZF around finances i.e. Pay cuts, stand downs, etc. Not to mention the other roles which he's been doing for the past year which he could have kept being paid for.

It feels like we've gone back to the cult of the manager and NZF are allowing Hay to do as he pleases. An experienced CEO/ technical director should set the direction for the organisation and try to keep as much footballing knowledge in the organisation. Hay wasn't my choice for Aws coach but from an NZF point of view surely Hay as all whites coach, with Des as assistant and u23s head made sense for the good of NZ football? Whether Hay wanted that or not?! 

Legend
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about 17 years

Enough said wrote:

did Des say he would work through to the 2021 Olympics for free? If not what is everyone banging on about exactly?

Uhmmm, maybe the fact that NZF have given contradictory messages and it has upset a lot of people. as they appear to have not been honest in their communication

ok so everyone saying that is full of it (which is most people). 

The plan for Hay to pick up the gig post Aug 2020 would have been in part a financial decision in the first place.

And if you think post Covid that NZF will be flush with cash after taking a hit on $ from Trusts, TAB , Sponsors, Football Programmes, and Levies to name a few then I suggest you get a grip.

S50
Trialist
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over 4 years

So in your opinion then... This is purely a financial decision brought on by the aftermath of Covid 19? 

If finances were an issue, why not continue to share roles within the organisation, i.e. Des stays on as Aws assistant/ u23 coach/ coach educator/ youth development instead of paying for Neil Emblem and Rory fallon to come on board. 

Trialist
25
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64
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almost 17 years

“If” 1st Sept 2020 was in his original contract it would have been for Paris 2024. Now with Paris 2024 in mind there would be no international activity for the next 23’s till 2023. Hay’s All White contract is till 2022. If re-appointed after 2022, then having the 23’s in his contract makes sense and would be legitimate. However, this mystery clause was never mentioned publicly until Thursday 30th April, which was contradictory to the reasons first given on Friday 3rd April. Once again why did they not use the contract clause then (that Pragnell says Des had known about since the start of the covid 19 crisis) instead of now, rather than using financial constraints as the sole reason. It really feels like a Plan B as the proposed financial issues no longer seem to exist. If it was Plan A then it should have been used then. It would have been tough on Des but it would have been transparent and clear-cut (two things you would have thought NZF would have learnt to do after all these reviews we have had in the past).

Trialist
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almost 8 years

Its this black and white: Danny has massive ego problem and issues with coaches in the game.. reference to Jose and Paul Temple getting released of their duties pre U17s World Cup, 1cycle back, and after qualifiers..Who get the gig to the World Cup? DH.

Des didn't last long in the role of assistant to the AW and now released of h``is duties with the U23s... once DH got appointed Head Coach.

More questions:

Where the Fudge did Martin Bullick appear from to get the latest U17s role? I am aware of some extremely impressive applications from local coaches, who didn't even get a thank you but no thank you response.. I think Martin was part of the Neil Emblem, Darren Basely group that DH was the driver behind getting them to NZ. DH would have been on the interview panel.

Tony Readings for the U20s..Again a massive question mark around that appointment! DH Eastern Suburbs TD/Head Coach 2018/19..Tony Reading Eastern Suburbs TD/Head Coach 2019/20. DH would have been on the interview panel.

I believe: said contracts, Covid and finances are irrelevant here..It is purely down to DH calling all shots and Pragnel subservient to DH.

Legend
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about 17 years

S50 wrote:

So in your opinion then... This is purely a financial decision brought on by the aftermath of Covid 19? 

If finances were an issue, why not continue to share roles within the organisation, i.e. Des stays on as Aws assistant/ u23 coach/ coach educator/ youth development instead of paying for Neil Emblem and Rory fallon to come on board. 

sigh. I said the decision to have Hay pick up a team doing sweet fa after the scheduled Olympics would have been a pre-covid financial decision. Given how poked they are financially are now, your ideas do not help, notwithstanding the fact coaches choose their assistants.

S50
Trialist
18
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8
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over 4 years

Coaches don't always get to pick their own staff though, particularly where there is a financial component ie the club can't afford to pay out current staff or bring more in. Or where the organisation values the current assistants. It makes no sense either to lose an entire staff worth of knowledge/ IP everytime a new head coach comes in. 

I realise most coaches want to bring in their own staff from a trust/ working relationship point of view but often this just becomes a boys club full of yes men where no one gets challenged professionally. 

I agree there is a financial component, but I still think there may have been a better outcome. As I said, I believe Des was being paid for 3-4 roles to make a full time wage. Say he was only being paid 25k for the 23s, his other roles are still going to have to be paid for i.e. Andy boyens previous youth gig and Steven dillons vacant coach educator role. Why not keep him on in those roles on a reduced wage even if not with the national teams? 

The  proposed review is likely to restructure and consolidate roles moving forward anyway. 

One last point, financially the Aws gig shouldn't be a full time role. It has to have other components attached to it, particularly when the numbers being thrown around for schmid and Hudson come to light (250k+). I really hope Hay is on nowhere near that! 

Legend
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almost 9 years

Midline wrote:

Its this black and white: Danny has massive ego problem and issues with coaches in the game.. reference to Jose and Paul Temple getting released of their duties pre U17s World Cup, 1cycle back, and after qualifiers..Who get the gig to the World Cup? DH.

Des didn't last long in the role of assistant to the AW and now released of h``is duties with the U23s... once DH got appointed Head Coach.

More questions:

Where the Fudge did Martin Bullick appear from to get the latest U17s role? I am aware of some extremely impressive applications from local coaches, who didn't even get a thank you but no thank you response.. I think Martin was part of the Neil Emblem, Darren Basely group that DH was the driver behind getting them to NZ. DH would have been on the interview panel.

Tony Readings for the U20s..Again a massive question mark around that appointment! DH Eastern Suburbs TD/Head Coach 2018/19..Tony Reading Eastern Suburbs TD/Head Coach 2019/20. DH would have been on the interview panel.

I believe: said contracts, Covid and finances are irrelevant here..It is purely down to DH calling all shots and Pragnel subservient to DH.

I imagine the truth lies somewhere amongst this post. Hay's history of seemingly getting rid of otherwise respected coaches, is a big part of his PR problem. 

Though as Voerman has identified a new U19/20s coach was required (Readings), as initially the Olympics were to clash with U19s OFC qualifying. Des couldn't be at both.

I guess alot of it boils down to Hay seemingly wanting to choose his own assistants, or coaching people he has to work alongside with at NZF. Is that right or wrong?  

Right if having an assistant "thrust upon him" he didn't want, leaded to massive dysfunction/bad energy in the AWs setup.

Wrong if a very successful well liked and respected guy like Des is lost.

Legend
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16K
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about 17 years

AW assistant coach would be about a 0.1 FTE

Starting XI
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over 8 years

Feverish wrote:

AW assistant coach would be about a 0.1 FTE

So make Des technical manager and assistant and tell dead weight like Emblen and Fallon to git. Perfect.
Cock
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16K
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over 14 years

I hold 2 positions on this


When you look big picture with no Confeds and the Olympics being pushed out a year and other tournaments and windows cancelled and now NZF have no income, Danny needs this tournament as part of a bigger picture around WC qualification so from a bigger picutre aspect, I can totally understand why this needed to happen and I do support it. Otherwise when will he ever get time with the players as part of developing that team and style for WC qualitifcation. Qualificaiton to the WC will save the game in NZ from the fallout of C-19. That cash is a lot.
If you were the coach of the national mens team and literally lose all your contact time, would you want to pick up this gig? I doubt no one would say 'well actually no, Des can keep it'. Everyone in the same position would make the same choice.This ia football/business/head decision and not a heart/emotion/feel good decision. Takes kahunas but he has done it.

On the other side of it, knowing they were going to do this, they could have gone to Des with 'hey, we have to give Danny the Olympics gig, sorry about that - can we give you the U20s as some small compensation?"

Its the way Des was treated which I suspect pisses people off on the micro scale vs the necessary movement of coaches as part of the big picture WC qualification process

Also I no way believe Danny is the better coach and do believe he was treated with utter contempt. However this does make sense regardless of how we "feel" about it

Starting XI
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almost 7 years

Agree with a lot of that - don't think a lot of people are opposed to the idea of having one coach for both squads and using the Olympics as senior squad rehearsals, I think it's fantastic actually. It's just infuriating that it went down the way it did

S50
Trialist
18
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8
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over 4 years

Agreed, the benefits of having the same coaching staff do both campaigns is massive. I think the argument is how is Des not a part of that staff moving forward? Currently the highest qualified coach in NZ with a pro licence, has a uefa A licence compared to an NZ A which isn't recognised anywhere else in the world, just graduated with an masters in sports coaching with distinction, and is also the HPSNZ football pick for their renowned coach accelerator program. That's a hell of a cv combined with a relatively high record of achievement both results and environment wise to throw away. 

Especially when it seems that as soon as NZF chose Danny as Aws coach, the end goal was always for Des to move on come this September. 

NZF should be trying to retain as much football knowledge and experience as possible. 

Trialist
14
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84
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over 9 years

Look what Sacred Heart has done

Football was established anew at Sacred Heart College in 1969 when one team was fielded in the Senior B Grade, coached by New Zealand Representative Phil Traynor. Since then, it has grown from strength to strength. In 2014 the 1st XI won every single premier trophy that was available in one year, the first in the history of New Zealand School Boy Football. Sacred Heart College remains one of top schools for Football, winning consucutive national titles in 2018 and 2019.

New Zealand Secondary Schools Cup winners – 2011, 2014, 2016, 2018 and 2019
Alex Harvey Cup, Auckland Secondary Schools Premier division – 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017
Auckland Secondary Schools Knockout Cup winners – 2012, 2014, 2017 and 2019
Bishop Patrick Dunn Cup (Catholic Challenge Cup) – 2010 to 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017

Recently a number of players have achieved national age-group honours. In 2015, three students were selected in the NZ FIFA Under 17 World Cup team that competed in Chile - Lucas Imrie, Connor Probert and Michael Woud. Danny Hay coached the team and Kane Wintersgill (student) was the Performance Analyst. In 2016 Lucas Imrie was selected to play in the NZ FIFA Under 20 World Cup team and in February 2017 three current students, Kingsley Sinclair, Matthew Palmer and Leon Van Den Hoven, where members of the NZ FIFA U17 World Cup team that won the Oceania Football Confederation. In 2019 current student Campbell Strong was selected for the NZ FIFA U17 World Cup team.

Marquee
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over 16 years

Thanks for that Danny

Phoenix Academy
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460
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over 9 years
Marquee
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over 12 years

  Sums the Man up well - The hurt is still raw but he has only good words to offer about his former employers, even though plenty in his orbit have expressed their views strongly. 
Lawyerish
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about 13 years

He is sincere and all class. Seems to also know a bit about football coaching 

Qualities I haven't yet seen in Daniel 

Starting XI
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about 17 years

braces wrote:

Look what Sacred Heart has done

Football was established anew at Sacred Heart College in 1969 when one team was fielded in the Senior B Grade, coached by New Zealand Representative Phil Traynor. Since then, it has grown from strength to strength. In 2014 the 1st XI won every single premier trophy that was available in one year, the first in the history of New Zealand School Boy Football. Sacred Heart College remains one of top schools for Football, winning consucutive national titles in 2018 and 2019.

New Zealand Secondary Schools Cup winners – 2011, 2014, 2016, 2018 and 2019
Alex Harvey Cup, Auckland Secondary Schools Premier division – 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017
Auckland Secondary Schools Knockout Cup winners – 2012, 2014, 2017 and 2019
Bishop Patrick Dunn Cup (Catholic Challenge Cup) – 2010 to 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017

Recently a number of players have achieved national age-group honours. In 2015, three students were selected in the NZ FIFA Under 17 World Cup team that competed in Chile - Lucas Imrie, Connor Probert and Michael Woud. Danny Hay coached the team and Kane Wintersgill (student) was the Performance Analyst. In 2016 Lucas Imrie was selected to play in the NZ FIFA Under 20 World Cup team and in February 2017 three current students, Kingsley Sinclair, Matthew Palmer and Leon Van Den Hoven, where members of the NZ FIFA U17 World Cup team that won the Oceania Football Confederation. In 2019 current student Campbell Strong was selected for the NZ FIFA U17 World Cup team.

Congratulations on this school for having success playing against other schools. Very impressive. All White coach impressive in fact.

Phoenix Academy
59
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230
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about 11 years

Danny poached most of his players from other schools

First Team Squad
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over 14 years

In my first year teaching I coached my school's First XI to promotion to a grade they'd never played in before - by the above rationale that would earn me something like a coaching gig at National League level??

As for the 'poaching' thing, there'd be a fair number of schools in the same boat, so that comp has a fairly even poached playing field...

Starting XI
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about 17 years

Blew.2 wrote:

  Sums the Man up well - The hurt is still raw but he has only good words to offer about his former employers, even though plenty in his orbit have expressed their views strongly. 

Good to see it hitting the guardian

Legend
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almost 9 years
Any word from NZF of some pre Olympic games for the U23s & Football Ferns?
See Football Australia are organising some games in Saudi this month, for their European based Olyroos prospects.
https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/olyroos-in-line-for-march-match-ups-against-brazil-egypt-in-saudi-arabia

A mate of mine involved with the NZ Olympic team, says Tokyo will definitely happen. Just it seems without foreign tourists/fans. Might even be hard for foreign journos to get there.
Getting paid to be here
700
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970
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over 6 years
coochiee
Any word from NZF of some pre Olympic games for the U23s & Football Ferns?
See Football Australia are organising some games in Saudi this month, for their European based Olyroos prospects.
https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/olyroos-in-line-for-march-match-ups-against-brazil-egypt-in-saudi-arabia

A mate of mine involved with the NZ Olympic team, says Tokyo will definitely happen. Just it seems without foreign tourists/fans. Might even be hard for foreign journos to get there.
I don't think there will be any until they get to Japan and even then they might be tricky and/or feature understrength squads.

Edit: Maybe, potentially, something in Australia if a bubble gets up and going.
Legend
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almost 9 years
andrewvoerman
coochiee
Any word from NZF of some pre Olympic games for the U23s & Football Ferns?
See Football Australia are organising some games in Saudi this month, for their European based Olyroos prospects.
https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/olyroos-in-line-for-march-match-ups-against-brazil-egypt-in-saudi-arabia

A mate of mine involved with the NZ Olympic team, says Tokyo will definitely happen. Just it seems without foreign tourists/fans. Might even be hard for foreign journos to get there.
I don't think there will be any until they get to Japan and even then they might be tricky and/or feature understrength squads.

Edit: Maybe, potentially, something in Australia if a bubble gets up and going.

Cheers
I see Olympics is July 23rd to August 8th.
Chances of some AWs friendlies in June?
31 May - 8 June 2021 is down as a block for EURO preparation friendly matches. I presume there will be other international friendlies scheduled over those dates.
Starting XI
440
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3.5K
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over 14 years
If I was to pick a squad today 4-3-3

GK Woud and either Poulsen/Zac Jones/ Cam Brown

LB - Cacace/ Mcgarry
RB - Elliot/ ingham
CB - Ried (OO), Stranger, Pijnaker 

DM, CM, AM - Singh, Thomas (OO), Bell, Lewis, Stensness 

LW/RW - McCowwatt, Just, Rogerson

ST - Wood (OO), Wayne
Legend
11K
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21K
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almost 9 years
maynardf
If I was to pick a squad today 4-3-3

GK Woud and either Poulsen/Zac Jones/ Cam Brown

LB - Cacace/ Mcgarry
RB - Elliot/ ingham
CB - Ried (OO), Stranger, Pijnaker 

DM, CM, AM - Singh, Thomas (OO), Bell, Lewis, Stensness 

LW/RW - McCowwatt, Just, Rogerson

ST - Wood (OO), Wayne

With Olympics being late July-early August (mid season Norway, pre season other Euro) don't be surprised if a number of the above names are unavailable.

PSV make UCL qualifying round, doubt Thomas is going to Tokyo as one example.
Legend
11K
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21K
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almost 9 years
USA U23 were defeated by Honduras, 2-1, in CONCACAF men's Olympic qualifying semi in Guadalajara, Mexico.
Mexico bet Canada 2-0 in the other semi. 

I think both semi winners qualify for Tokyo.

Old mate Anthony Hudson is co coach USA U20s.
Phoenix Academy
130
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440
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over 16 years
With Olympics being late July-early August (mid season Norway, pre season other Euro) don't be surprised if a number of the above names are unavailable.

PSV make UCL qualifying round, doubt Thomas is going to Tokyo as one example.
Might need to look at some of those 23s who did the qualifying and winning of the Pacific Senior Games and are not  mentioned? 
Legend
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almost 9 years
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/124654954/injury-blow-for-olywhites-as-the-scale-of-their-task-at-the-tokyo-olympics-becomes-clear

A-League clubs will be in their off-season in July, so there should be no issues there, with the likes of Dane Ingham, Clayton Lewis, James McGarry, Gianni Stensness, and Ben Waine among Hay's potential options, while clubs further abroad aren’t likely to put up obstacles around their under-24 players, knowing the Olympic spotlight could help them as try to develop them and potentially sell them on.

It might be a different case with Wood at Burnley or Reid at Brentford (or West Ham United, if he winds up back there once his loan ends), or even with the likes of Liberato Cacace and Sarpreet Singh, who are at bigger European clubs than many of their under-24 peers, but Hay said he was open to being flexible around exactly when players arrive in Japan – within reason.
Starting XI
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4.9K
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over 15 years
Men's and women's Olympic football draw streaming live here 8 pm NZT Wednesday (10 am CET Wednesday 21st in Europe) :
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpcTrCXblq78GZrTUTLWeBw
Info on the draw:
https://www.fifa.com/who-we-are/news/teams-ranked-and-allocated-for-tokyo-2020-olympic-football-draws
There's an amazingly big NZ involvement with the draw with Ryan Nelsen assisting Jaime Yarza, FIFA Director of Tournaments, with the men's draw, and
the women's draw being conducted by Kiwi Sarai Bareman, FIFA Chief Women’s Football Officer.
There's a chance we could draw Australia in the men's (and women's) draw.
The Olyroos are one of four sides in Pot 4 (we are Pot 3) with each group comprising one side from each Pot (but no two sides from the same confederation allowed in the same group) .
From above FIFA article: 
Ryan Nelsen, captain of the New Zealand Olympic squad in 2008 and London 2012: “Playing an Olympic competition is an unforgettable experience. I’m very excited to feel the Olympic atmosphere again and assist with the draws for Tokyo 2020. I wish luck to all 28 teams and invite fans around the world to follow the event that will unveil the first matches of their countries."
First Team Squad
2K
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1.9K
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almost 17 years
maynardf
If I was to pick a squad today 4-3-3

GK Woud and either Poulsen/Zac Jones/ Cam Brown

LB - Cacace/ Mcgarry
RB - Elliot/ ingham
CB - Ried (OO), Stranger, Pijnaker 

DM, CM, AM - Singh, Thomas (OO), Bell, Lewis, Stensness 

LW/RW - McCowwatt, Just, Rogerson

ST - Wood (OO), Wayne
Damn that's a good team by NZ standards... I think Thomas just had surgery though so could be in doubt... Not many other over age NZ guys who would walk into that team. 
First Team Squad
2K
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1.9K
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almost 17 years
I just read that Thomas is ruled out.. Didn't realise your post was a few weeks old. 

Who are the other over age options (other than the obvious Reid/Wood)? Smith, Boxal? Surely we can do better than Kosta, and I assume Rojas is still Injured. I feel like I'm forgetting someone...

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