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2nd NZ franchise in the A-League. Would it work?
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Just wondered what anyone thought the chances of were of a second Kiwi team being admitted into the A-League anytime soon? Without doubt, Auckland and Christchurch could both support such a venture (stadia, population base etc), but would it ever happen?

Canada now has three teams in the MLS and, although there is a difference in population and money, would it be a realistic option for NZ to go this route?
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I really do think it could work (emphasis on the could) but I think you'd need to wait another 5-10 years until 1. the A-League is really bedded down as a competition 2. the phoenix cuts the apron strings to NZF completely
 
Needs to have a proper identity i.e. Chch or Akl (not some NZ mishmash that plays all over the country which I could see being proposed).
 
But I would preface that with 2 simple things that make it a success
 
1. need a good stadium to play at
 
2. need good people running and owning the club
 
Without those, it cannot work - zero % chance.
 
I liken it to the warriors.  They are hugely popular all over the country, their popularity is so great that you could see another club in Wgtn for example being really succesful.  But that's because the warriors are 10 years ahead of the Phoenix and would see another team as a positive thing rather than a threat
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3rd thing that needs to happen - NZ either moves into Asia or Oceania and Asia merge
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Just wondering JD - what apron strings does the Phoenix currently have to NZF?
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Already numerous threads in the past about this, could an old one not have been dug up?

It is their competition, why should NZ get another team before another Australian team?  Auckland have proved they can't support an A-League team, as well as supporting the Breakers and the Warriors, Blues and whatever other teams are up there.  No one has enough money in this country or enough passion to take the losses. And there is simply not enough support in Auckland or Christchurch to warrant people going to 13 games a season. The A-League has enough problems as it is, do I  need to mention Gold Coast United and Newcastle?

Would I like to see another team, sure but as JD said won't be happening in the next 5-10 years, if at all. 

I can't see Asia wanting to absorb Oceania.



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Asia would have to split in 2 for a start!For instance how could Samoa afford to travel to Iran? Plus from a New Zealand perspective I think we are better off staying out - effectively giving our age-group and womens teams direct access to World Cups, and the AWs direct to confeds cup and easy path to the WC. Obviously its not ideal being in Oceania but I think all things considered it works in our favour
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would need a massive amount of support in Aussie you would think. After all the nearly sides there are there, and the sides that have fallen by the wayside a lot of aussie would be pissed if they can't drive 40 minutes to see football, but NZ has got two teams...
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Asia would have to split in 2 for a start!For instance how could Samoa afford to travel to Iran?
It's essentially managed as two different parts as it is.
 
 
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terminator_x wrote:
Just wondering JD - what apron strings does the Phoenix currently have to NZF?
Well the RH two roles means that the club and the national body are still entwined - NZF pays [art of his salary etc.  Up until the new ownership there were regular liquidity arrangements entered into, bridging loans etc.  Probably right that is naturally coming to an end but throughout Terry's involvement there was a fair amount of involvement.  All I'm meaning really is that you couldn't have any impression that NZF favoured one team over the othyer, you'd want to see complete separation. james dean2012-04-20 21:14:55
a.k.a AJ13
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Why would Asia have to split or merge with Oceania? If a team is happy to play without a shot at the ACL, and are well funded, then FFA would take them on in a heart beat.

Id even go so far as saying if some millionaire decided tonight that he wants to prop up an Auckland franchise for the next 5 years, FFA would take that on and it would be a done deal by the end of next week. Theyre desperate to not spend/lose money on the A-League.
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Junior82 wrote:
Asia would have to split in 2 for a start!For instance how could Samoa afford to travel to Iran?
It's essentially managed as two different parts as it is.
 
 

I think you'd find that even if we did merge, the Island nations would only ever play each other anyway. FIFA dont pull friendlies out of a hat. And if they couldnt afford to travel then they wouldnt. Whats the worst that could happen? Not play in the Asia Cup? Theyre not doing that now so they wouldnt be any worse off. They'd still have things like the Pacific Games and the Oceania nations cup would probably still exist in some capacity. Thats pretty much it as it is currently, again they wouldnt be any worse off.
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Well for world cup qualifiers it would be tricky.
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james dean wrote:
terminator_x wrote:
Just wondering JD - what apron strings does the Phoenix currently have to NZF?
Well the RH two roles means that the club and the national body are still entwined - NZF pays [art of his salary etc.  Up until the new ownership there were regular liquidity arrangements entered into, bridging loans etc.  Probably right that is naturally coming to an end but throughout Terry's involvement there was a fair amount of involvement.  All I'm meaning really is that you couldn't have any impression that NZF favoured one team over the othyer, you'd want to see complete separation.


Yeah, the Ricki Herbert dual role was the only entanglement I could think of.

Quite right that you wouldn't want any conflict of interest, although it's never stopped the FFA running a club when they need to.

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rjmiller wrote:
Well for world cup qualifiers it would be tricky.

It would be easy enough to fix. Organise a simple home and away system with a direct knock out to weed out the likes of Samoa, Tonga etc... then bring the winners of those games in with Round 2 of Asia, and go from there. Very likely that the rest would get knocked out straight away and it would only cost them one away match somewhere in Asia. The harsh reality of it all is that at some stage they will need to expect to pay for travel, or why else contend for the WC?
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Nothing until 2015. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/soccer/freeze-on-a-league-expansion-to-get-soccer-in-order/story-e6frfg8x-1226325366966

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Previous failures dominate discussions of a possible Hyundai A-League expansion in Auckland, with local experts quick to hose down any expectations - but there are examples of how it could work.

With the Phoenix coming to town to play Perth on February 2, the question about expansion in New Zealand has resurfaced, but the problems experienced by the Football Kingz and New Zealand Knights, the ashes from which the Phoenix arose, are still raw in the minds of locals.

And veteran Auckland journalist Terry Maddaford says those same obstacles stand in the way on any New Zealand expansion enterprise, even with other codes showing the right strategy can pay off.

http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/news-display/Auckland-expansion-remains-distant-hope/58935

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I'm actually sick of this story, not your fault RR.  Do they not understand that the FFA are not expanding at least til 2015?  so it's a moot discussion.  I'm not sure what crowd is going to show up at Eden park.  But it won't be close to 20k

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When pigs fly and elephants shit gold.

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I'm actually sick of this story, not your fault RR.  Do they not understand that the FFA are not expanding at least til 2015?  so it's a moot discussion.  I'm not sure what crowd is going to show up at Eden park.  But it won't be close to 20k

I get what you are saying, but long term Auckland is too big to ignore.

Not sure 2015 is achievable, but I would hope we see a serious bid by 2020. Any bid needs to evolve more naturally than someone like Owen Glenn just throwing a pile of cash at it. Auckland should want a team, rather than just trying to build it and hope they will come.
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2015 is only 2 years away, now is probably a good time to hold these discussions. 

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http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/7971084/A-League-expansion-ruled-out

This article says at least 4 years.  Even if Auckland do want one, do the Aleague want another NZ team over an Australian one?

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Why would FIFA provide an exemption for another NZ team? I thought the main premise of an NZ team was because we did not have pro football. Now we have it, what impetus is there to approve a 2nd team? From an FFA stand point, they wont get any more in TV rights, costs will got up for travel... For the FFA, there is no incentive to do this.

Listen here Fudgeface
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Jeff Vader wrote:

Why would FIFA provide an exemption for another NZ team? I thought the main premise of an NZ team was because we did not have pro football. Now we have it, what impetus is there to approve a 2nd team? From an FFA stand point, they wont get any more in TV rights, costs will got up for travel... For the FFA, there is no incentive to do this.

I see what you mean, but would the FFA lose more money by expanding to a large city such as Auckland over a likely expansion city, such as Canberra? If Auckland can get their act together and pull crowds of 10k+, then wouldn't the increased NZ viewership, as well as larger crowds than the 5k you would expect a team in Canberra to be able to get outweigh the increased travel costs? I guess you are looking at it in terms of adding Auckland to the current league, whereas I am looking at it in terms of Auckland compared to other likely expansion clubs.
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/7971084/A-League-expansion-ruled-out

This article says at least 4 years.  Even if Auckland do want one, do the Aleague want another NZ team over an Australian one?

What are the options?

Canberra, Wollongong, Tasmania, Gold Coast, North Queensland, Geelong, 2nd Brisbane Team, 2nd Adelaide Team

Compared to those options, Auckland is very tempting because of its size. I think Canberra & Wollongong are viable options for #11 and #12. There is no reason why Auckland couldn't aim for the 13th spot, hardest part is finding a solid 14th bid to keep the league even.
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patrick478 wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

Why would FIFA provide an exemption for another NZ team? I thought the main premise of an NZ team was because we did not have pro football. Now we have it, what impetus is there to approve a 2nd team? From an FFA stand point, they wont get any more in TV rights, costs will got up for travel... For the FFA, there is no incentive to do this.

I see what you mean, but would the FFA lose more money by expanding to a large city such as Auckland over a likely expansion city, such as Canberra? If Auckland can get their act together and pull crowds of 10k+, then wouldn't the increased NZ viewership, as well as larger crowds than the 5k you would expect a team in Canberra to be able to get outweigh the increased travel costs? I guess you are looking at it in terms of adding Auckland to the current league, whereas I am looking at it in terms of Auckland compared to other likely expansion clubs.
Auckland would also add another NZ time slot to use for TV. They could push back moreof the games to avoid the summer heat.
Listen here Fudgeface
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/7971084/A-League-expansion-ruled-out

This article says at least 4 years.  Even if Auckland do want one, do the Aleague want another NZ team over an Australian one?

What are the options?

Canberra, Wollongong, Tasmania, Gold Coast, North Queensland, Geelong, 2nd Brisbane Team, 2nd Adelaide Team

Compared to those options, Auckland is very tempting because of its size. I think Canberra & Wollongong are viable options for #11 and #12. There is no reason why Auckland couldn't aim for the 13th spot, hardest part is finding a solid 14th bid to keep the league even.
You would have to thing Gold Coast would be off the cards given the crap crowd sizes there, and the crowds that the Heart are getting would make you think twice about another team in Brisbane and Adelaide. Like with Melbourne, and unlike Sydney, there isn't really a geographical split that the second team could move into, so you'd probably just see crowds of 5k max again. Tassy and Canberra would be the two places I would think are most likely.
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Jeff Vader wrote:

Why would FIFA provide an exemption for another NZ team? I thought the main premise of an NZ team was because we did not have pro football. Now we have it, what impetus is there to approve a 2nd team? From an FFA stand point, they wont get any more in TV rights, costs will got up for travel... For the FFA, there is no incentive to do this.



Agree with Jeff.  More pros for NZ than for Australia.    Who in Australia is going to watch an NZ derby?  

If Auckland had built that stadium on the waterfront, it might be a different story.  But can they turn out for 14 home games a year at North Harbour or Mt smart?


Early retirement
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 Tasmania is challenged by having the two real population bases split in Hobart and Launceston.  Neither of them huge.

RR
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patrick478 wrote:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/7971084/A-League-expansion-ruled-out

This article says at least 4 years.  Even if Auckland do want one, do the Aleague want another NZ team over an Australian one?

What are the options?

Canberra, Wollongong, Tasmania, Gold Coast, North Queensland, Geelong, 2nd Brisbane Team, 2nd Adelaide Team

Compared to those options, Auckland is very tempting because of its size. I think Canberra & Wollongong are viable options for #11 and #12. There is no reason why Auckland couldn't aim for the 13th spot, hardest part is finding a solid 14th bid to keep the league even.
You would have to thing Gold Coast would be off the cards given the crap crowd sizes there, and the crowds that the Heart are getting would make you think twice about another team in Brisbane and Adelaide. Like with Melbourne, and unlike Sydney, there isn't really a geographical split that the second team could move into, so you'd probably just see crowds of 5k max again. Tassy and Canberra would be the two places I would think are most likely.
The 'gong has football history and a good stadium. Plenty of footballers from the region in the A-League. Tassie has the problem of where do you base it, bit of a divide between Hobart & Launceston. Canberra had the support, just not the cash for a bid.
Cock
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patrick478 wrote:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/7971084/A-League-expansion-ruled-out

This article says at least 4 years.  Even if Auckland do want one, do the Aleague want another NZ team over an Australian one?

What are the options?

Canberra, Wollongong, Tasmania, Gold Coast, North Queensland, Geelong, 2nd Brisbane Team, 2nd Adelaide Team

Compared to those options, Auckland is very tempting because of its size. I think Canberra & Wollongong are viable options for #11 and #12. There is no reason why Auckland couldn't aim for the 13th spot, hardest part is finding a solid 14th bid to keep the league even.
You would have to thing Gold Coast would be off the cards given the crap crowd sizes there, and the crowds that the Heart are getting would make you think twice about another team in Brisbane and Adelaide. Like with Melbourne, and unlike Sydney, there isn't really a geographical split that the second team could move into, so you'd probably just see crowds of 5k max again. Tassy and Canberra would be the two places I would think are most likely.
I agree that GC would not work and NQ has been tried. I thought the whole point of the 'new A League' was to remove a lot of the ethnic rivalries. Would putting a 2nd team in to Brisbane and Adelaide really work? Looking at their current crowd sizes, you are just spreading the wedge a bit thinner. I would have thought that Canberra or Tasmania would have been obvious next options as there is nothing there at the moment and geographically spread.
Aucklanders are very much apathetic when it comes to supporting anything
'The Scoop'
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think queensland could definitely provide at least another team. Canberra is the obvious one. 

Agree auckland has to want a team before they try and get one. I assume they would use north harbour ?

RR
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Jeff Vader wrote:

patrick478 wrote:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/7971084/A-League-expansion-ruled-out

This article says at least 4 years.  Even if Auckland do want one, do the Aleague want another NZ team over an Australian one?

What are the options?

Canberra, Wollongong, Tasmania, Gold Coast, North Queensland, Geelong, 2nd Brisbane Team, 2nd Adelaide Team

Compared to those options, Auckland is very tempting because of its size. I think Canberra & Wollongong are viable options for #11 and #12. There is no reason why Auckland couldn't aim for the 13th spot, hardest part is finding a solid 14th bid to keep the league even.
You would have to thing Gold Coast would be off the cards given the crap crowd sizes there, and the crowds that the Heart are getting would make you think twice about another team in Brisbane and Adelaide. Like with Melbourne, and unlike Sydney, there isn't really a geographical split that the second team could move into, so you'd probably just see crowds of 5k max again. Tassy and Canberra would be the two places I would think are most likely.
I agree that GC would not work and NQ has been tried. I thought the whole point of the 'new A League' was to remove a lot of the ethnic rivalries. Would putting a 2nd team in to Brisbane and Adelaide really work? Looking at their current crowd sizes, you are just spreading the wedge a bit thinner. I would have thought that Canberra or Tasmania would have been obvious next options as there is nothing there at the moment and geographically spread.
Aucklanders are very much apathetic when it comes to supporting anything
Wellingtonians are not exactly showing up in droves either.

i agree that 2nd Brisbane & Adelaide team is unlikely, they can't get big crowds for the teams they have already. The most viable looking places to have teams for me are Wollongong, Canberra and Auckland.

Auckland is just too big not to return at some point, but I don't think they should be the next cab off the rank. As I said earlier, I think 2020 would be a realistic target to aim for.
Early retirement
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The difference is that a 6k crowd is a poor crowd in Wellington whereas it was a decent crowd for the Kingz and a dream for the Knights, in a market 3 or 4 times the size.

That's a hard business case to make stack-up.

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At Mt Smart with Rufer playing the Kingz had a few crowds of 10,000 plus. But they couldn't sustain them.

Cock
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Hard News wrote:

The difference is that a 6k crowd is a poor crowd in Wellington whereas it was a decent crowd for the Kingz and a dream for the Knights, in a market 3 or 4 times the size.

That's a hard business case to make stack-up.

And there endith the lesson.
I hope they don't come back here for that very reason.
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Hard News wrote:

The difference is that a 6k crowd is a poor crowd in Wellington whereas it was a decent crowd for the Kingz and a dream for the Knights, in a market 3 or 4 times the size.

That's a hard business case to make stack-up.

Would an Auckland team benefit on the back of the Phoenix's relative success in the HAL? Two HAL teams in NZ, especially when playing each other, would create a lot more interest and coverage of the HAL in NZ.
RR
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Jeff Vader wrote:

Hard News wrote:

The difference is that a 6k crowd is a poor crowd in Wellington whereas it was a decent crowd for the Kingz and a dream for the Knights, in a market 3 or 4 times the size.

That's a hard business case to make stack-up.

And there endith the lesson.
I hope they don't come back here for that very reason.
So Jeff, where would your preferred options for possible future expansion?
Marquee
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[I hope they don't come back here for that very reason.

[/quote]

 

So if an oligarch like, say, Owen Glen, or that warehouse geezer, offerred to bankroll an Auckland A-League team, you'd be against the attempt Jeff?

Cock
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Jerzy: Thats not what I am saying. Its not about the money. Its about the pitiful crowd numbers. As News just highlighted, a bad crowd is Wellington is a great crowd for a former Auckland franchise. Granted the Auckland franchise did not perform but if they were to do so, would the crowds be any better? Even then, to consistently hit that crowd number, that Auckland franchise would have to consistently perform. Across 2 teams and 12 odd season, the Phoenix have done it for 3 of those years.... I'm quite content for there to be 1 team in NZ and if that means its in Wellington and not Auckland, so be it.

Ryan: Canberra or Tasmania. I think you need to make it a geographical spread. Granted they are not the best locations but going back into Adelaide and Brisbane and revisiting GC and NQ would not be smart I think. Again, I also do not think there is an incentive for the FFA to put another team in NZ and would FIFA and AFC approve it?

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