Honduras had far more possession & shots than we did. Obviously diabolical from Woud, but the overall performance wasn't great, couldn't say we looked the better team. When we were 2-1 up Honduras hit the post and were looking likely to score. Part of the pressure that got to Woud was due to his earlier errors, but also partly the pressure Honduras were putting on us. He obviously should handle it better, but also, we should be better as a team so he wasn't under the pump so much.
I'm sorry but so many people on here are glossing over the performance by saying "oh its unfair to blame hay because without these errors we would've won." That's a load of bs, both games have been very hard to watch. Sit deep, defend, then hit on the break. Honduras had 49% possesion. People need to realise that while yes we would've won without individual mistakes, we also could've won with a more proactive coach, maybe someone who wants to play on the front foot and play players in their proper position. Can someone tell me when Waine played left wing for the nix? or even when Stensness played CB for CCM this year...?
Either our expectations were that low that we praise such performances or we’ve been that terrible in the past that this is seen as a huge improvement… if it’s the later makes you question how terrible were we in the past 😂😂 nzmatt
I'm sorry but so many people on here are glossing over the performance by saying "oh its unfair to blame hay because without these errors we would've won." That's a load of bs, both games have been very hard to watch. Sit deep, defend, then hit on the break. Honduras had 49% possesion. People need to realise that while yes we would've won without individual mistakes, we also could've won with a more proactive coach, maybe someone who wants to play on the front foot and play players in their proper position. Can someone tell me when Waine played left wing for the nix? or even when Stensness played CB for CCM this year...?
the worst part of all this is that the 1 win will see this tourney as a success, if we make it out of the group it will be a massive success; this despite Hay's god awful approach to the game. I dont mind the counter attack approach - Arsenal did it perfectly for years and it served them well. But we have to be better controlled on the ball and not go for the hit and hope long ball to the wings. We have the players to be able to bring it out from the back, Libby, Bell, Stensness. Hay is clearly playing people out of position cos he has got a set plan in mind rather than setting up the team to match his playing sock. Stensness has played CB, just not for CCM, he's more of a DM than CB. Losing Boxall probably didn't help there. Waine has come of for Just in both games hasn't he? and Just was on the right I thought.
The 2nd half v SK was pretty good, considering the level of opposition.
Other than that I think we've been quite bad. Really defensive, lots of hoofball from the keeper, struggling to keep possession and our midfield is black hole. We also don't seem to be utilising the strengths of our players.
I thought Honduras clearly were the better team and deserved to win. It's easy to blame Woud but what the hell happened for that 3rd goal?
We should be beating Honduras, sorry. They aren't a good side.
After the Koreans smashed Romania, I think that means:
If we beat Romania we qualify, regardless of what happens in SK vs Honduras.
If we lose to Romania, we miss out regardless of what happens in SK vs Honduras
If we draw vs Romania, - we qualify if SK beats Honduras (SK finish on 6, we finish on 4, Romania on 4 (but we have better GD), H on 3. - we qualify if Honduras beats SK (Hondurus finishes on 6, we finish on 4, Romania on 4 (but we have better GD), SK on 3) - We miss out if SK vs Honduras is a draw All teams finish on 4, SK through on GD, Honduras same GD as us but they get through as they beat us head to head)
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Believe that after GD, goals scored comes into effect, then fair play.
Right now, our GD (0), goals scored (3) and fair play stats (three yellows) are the exact same as Honduras’ - so if, for example, both NZ-Romania and SK-Honduras finish 1-1, it’d come down to which team out of NZ or Honduras got the least yellow cards on that final matchday. If NZ-Romania finishes 1-1 and SK-Honduras finishes 0-0, we’d go through on goals scored.
Before Fair Play comes into it, it is Head-to-Head points. So Honduras would finish above us. We either need a win or a high(er) scoring draw.
The 2nd half v SK was pretty good, considering the level of opposition.
Other than that I think we've been quite bad. Really defensive, lots of hoofball from the keeper, struggling to keep possession and our midfield is black hole. We also don't seem to be utilising the strengths of our players.
I thought Honduras clearly were the better team and deserved to win. It's easy to blame Woud but what the hell happened for that 3rd goal?
We should be beating Honduras, sorry. They aren't a good side.
Well that's clearly not true - they are a good side, and more proficient than what we are.
Maldonado and Decas looked mint. I thought Honduras used the flanks really well, especially the diagonal ball in behind Cacace and Ingram.
Hay won't drop Woud, and why would he? He will be aiming to have a professional relationship with him in the AWs (should they ever take the field), and would be battling with Tzanev for a starting berth. Why would Hay destroy a young player in the Olympics, with WC Qualification around the corner?
Yes, Woud should have saved at least one of those. We also need to remember that a great deal of the game was one-way traffic, so there's a lot of pressure being exerted on our defence and goalie.
Maybe sitting back and soaking up the pressure can only last so long before we crack?
The 2nd half v SK was pretty good, considering the level of opposition.
Other than that I think we've been quite bad. Really defensive, lots of hoofball from the keeper, struggling to keep possession and our midfield is black hole. We also don't seem to be utilising the strengths of our players.
I thought Honduras clearly were the better team and deserved to win. It's easy to blame Woud but what the hell happened for that 3rd goal?
We should be beating Honduras, sorry. They aren't a good side.
Well that's clearly not true - they are a good side, and more proficient than what we are.
Maldonado and Decas looked mint. I thought Honduras used the flanks really well, especially the diagonal ball in behind Cacace and Ingram.
Hay won't drop Woud, and why would he? He will be aiming to have a professional relationship with him in the AWs (should they ever take the field), and would be battling with Tzanev for a starting berth. Why would Hay destroy a young player in the Olympics, with WC Qualification around the corner?
Yes, Woud should have saved at least one of those. We also need to remember that a great deal of the game was one-way traffic, so there's a lot of pressure being exerted on our defence and goalie.
Maybe sitting back and soaking up the pressure can only last so long before we crack?
Rusty Dunks
valeo
The 2nd half v SK was pretty good, considering the level of opposition.
Other than that I think we've been quite bad. Really defensive, lots of hoofball from the keeper, struggling to keep possession and our midfield is black hole. We also don't seem to be utilising the strengths of our players.
I thought Honduras clearly were the better team and deserved to win. It's easy to blame Woud but what the hell happened for that 3rd goal?
We should be beating Honduras, sorry. They aren't a good side.
Well that's clearly not true - they are a good side, and more proficient than what we are.
Maldonado and Decas looked mint. I thought Honduras used the flanks really well, especially the diagonal ball in behind Cacace and Ingram.
Hay won't drop Woud, and why would he? He will be aiming to have a professional relationship with him in the AWs (should they ever take the field), and would be battling with Tzanev for a starting berth. Why would Hay destroy a young player in the Olympics, with WC Qualification around the corner?
Yes, Woud should have saved at least one of those. We also need to remember that a great deal of the game was one-way traffic, so there's a lot of pressure being exerted on our defence and goalie.
Maybe sitting back and soaking up the pressure can only last so long before we crack?
If Danny Hay doesn't drop Woud that will be confirmation of what we already know - Hay ain't up to the AWs job.
Dropping players is part and parcel of having a professional relationship with them - when a GK underperforms to that extent they have to sit out the next one. Searle and Paulsen are more than capable and Woud has just handed one of them an opportunity on a silver platter.
All this Hay bashing and Des love is crap... how do we know how Des would have set them up, he's not here to do so. U20 is not at the same level as this, players are more polished (generally).
If Woud had a half decent game we would have won and would be through to the next round already... but no doubt there would still be people complaining.
Compared to Herbert football this is still miles ahead, could it be better, yes, could it be worse... DEFINATELY!
While dropping Woud may hurt his confidence, him playing next match and stuffing up again would be worse for him. Only a few days between matches, and massive games on the world stage, it's far from certain that mentally he will be at his best.
In any case, need to make selections on who is most likely to help the team win. There is certainly a question mark on whether that is Woud right now, but also depends on how capable they think the backup keeper is.
All this Hay bashing and Des love is crap... how do we know how Des would have set them up, he's not here to do so. U20 is not at the same level as this, players are more polished (generally).
If Woud had a half decent game we would have won and would be through to the next round already... but no doubt there would still be people complaining.
Compared to Herbert football this is still miles ahead, could it be better, yes, could it be worse... DEFINATELY!
I 'this'ed' you - but your spelling almost lost it.
The frustrating thing is there were periods where we were doing one touch football and tearing through them we just didn't attempt it very much, so we know we can play better than we were. Doesn't matter whether one coach is better than the other, the team can play better football than it did.
I'm probably in the minority but I would have loved to see Kosta in the team instead of Boxall. Imagine the service he could have provided to Wood.
I mentioned this a few months ago.
As promising as Just & McCowatt are, I'd still at this stage go for Kosta & Rojas to partner Wood in those big AWs games next year. Last night's game in it's own way, showed the huge value of having older experienced heads on the pitch. Both Barba and Marco have a tonne of international experience, and have played with Wood for years.
But with the 2 weeks MIQ requirement in Aussie (as per NZ) for returning overseas travellers, neither Kosta or Rojas are likely to feature for the AWs until maybe the March FIFA window next year at the earliest. Mooted OFC January tourney an outside bet. Maybe not even until those big June 2022 intercontinental playoffs. Kosta from memory still hasn't played a game under Hay (missed those Nov 2019 games) - yet he still shapes as a very important player for the national team! You can learn only so much from Zoom calls.
At least Boxall is a chance of featuring for AWs later this year if they get some Euro based friendlies. Esp the Nov window, as MLS season should be over by then.
I hope Hay is not totally infatuated by his old ES Handy Prem youngsters, and still thinks likes of Rojas & Barba have an AWs future. But yes is going to be very hard in these pandemic times to get them into AWs environment leading up to June 2022.
I'm probably in the minority but I would have loved to see Kosta in the team instead of Boxall. Imagine the service he could have provided to Wood.
I mentioned this a few months ago.
As promising as Just & McCowatt are, I'd still at this stage go for Kosta & Rojas to partner Wood in those big AWs games next year. Last night's game in it's own way, showed the huge value of having older experienced heads on the pitch. Both Barba and Marco have a tonne of international experience, and have played with Wood for years.
But with the 2 weeks MIQ requirement in Aussie (as per NZ) for returning overseas travellers, neither Kosta or Rojas are likely to feature for the AWs until maybe the March FIFA window next year at the earliest. Mooted OFC Jan tourney an outside bet. Maybe not even until those big June 2022 intercontinental playoffs. Kosta still hasn't played a game under Hay (missed those Nov 2019 games) - yet he still shapes as a very important player for the national team!
At least Boxall is a chance of featuring for AWs later this year if they get some Euro based friendlies. Esp the Nov window, as MLS season should be over by then.
I hope Hay is not totally infatuated by his old ES Handy Prem players, and still thinks likes of Rojas & Barba have an AWs future. But yes is going to be very hard in these pandemic times to get them into AWs environment leading up to June 2022.
In an AWs team would be close run between Kosta/Rojas/Just/McCowatt but for Olympics I don’t think it would be worth using a visa on one of those two, as the difference between them and the underage players isn’t wide enough.
Reid and Boxall has of course turned out badly, but were the right choice seeing as Ryan Thomas couldn’t go. Pijnaker has been very impressive but had little senior experience so I can see the reasoning behind opting for a senior CB.
Kosta has done well in A League but hasn’t really done much in a white shirt, he has 47 caps, a ridiculous amount given how rarely they play (he debuted in 2008!). He has only 4 goals for the AWs, and only 1 against non-OFC teams, as many as McCowatt has and he has 1 cap.
Yeah like others have said I just think it's far too simplistic and cruel really to focus on the errors made by Woud. IMO two were minor errors where the Honduran player had gotten into a great position to shoot anyway.
I think the centrebacks had a poor game collectively, the loss of Reid hurt us, Stanger was not up to the level, Stensness isn't a good fit as a CB for me and would prefer him in midfield, Pijnaker didn't have his best day.
Wingbacks played well in an offensive aspect, but I just wonder whether it is wrong player selection to have two very offensively minded fullbacks. Libby was decent mostly, but I'd take Callan Elliot over Dane Ingham, he's more stable and Ingham is a bit of a wannabe winger anyway.
I thought the centre mids were average and let Honduras take control of the game, again IMO should have been supported by Stensness and a back four played.
Subs in all positions did not have much impact I thought Waine was poor in particular.
Wood, McCowatt, Just I can't really fault, I think they did well with what they had and showed great movement at times.
And finally Danny Hay, I'm not gonna get stuck in and make him out like he's hopeless like others have, and in fact I gave him great credit for the way we defended against Korea. But he just got it totally wrong here - both times we sat on the lead and invited pressure. Inviting pressure was fine against Korea who are a very technical, patient attacking side but without a lot of flair or pace, but against Honduras, with the flair and pace they have and that we should know they have, you just can't do that. Especially not going to work when our two experienced centre backs are out...
You think? Doesn’t it make sense to defend a lead in those circumstances?lthomas20
Yeah like others have said I just think it's far too simplistic and cruel really to focus on the errors made by Woud. IMO two were minor errors where the Honduran player had gotten into a great position to shoot anyway.
I think the centrebacks had a poor game collectively, the loss of Reid hurt us, Stanger was not up to the level, Stensness isn't a good fit as a CB for me and would prefer him in midfield, Pijnaker didn't have his best day.
Wingbacks played well in an offensive aspect, but I just wonder whether it is wrong player selection to have two very offensively minded fullbacks. Libby was decent mostly, but I'd take Callan Elliot over Dane Ingham, he's more stable and Ingham is a bit of a wannabe winger anyway.
I thought the centre mids were average and let Honduras take control of the game, again IMO should have been supported by Stensness and a back four played.
Subs in all positions did not have much impact I thought Waine was poor in particular.
Wood, McCowatt, Just I can't really fault, I think they did well with what they had and showed great movement at times.
And finally Danny Hay, I'm not gonna get stuck in and make him out like he's hopeless like others have, and in fact I gave him great credit for the way we defended against Korea. But he just got it totally wrong here - both times we sat on the lead and invited pressure. Inviting pressure was fine against Korea who are a very technical, patient attacking side but without a lot of flair or pace, but against Honduras, with the flair and pace they have and that we should know they have, you just can't do that. Especially not going to work when our two experienced centre backs are out...
We looked dangerous on the counter, scoring our second, and bar for sloppy passing could have had a couple more good opportunities.
Playing on the counter not a bad option against a side that loses shape, especially when searching for a goal. Just doesn't work when your players balls up completely.
You think? Doesn’t it make sense to defend a lead in those circumstances?lthomas20
Yeah like others have said I just think it's far too simplistic and cruel really to focus on the errors made by Woud. IMO two were minor errors where the Honduran player had gotten into a great position to shoot anyway.
I think the centrebacks had a poor game collectively, the loss of Reid hurt us, Stanger was not up to the level, Stensness isn't a good fit as a CB for me and would prefer him in midfield, Pijnaker didn't have his best day.
Wingbacks played well in an offensive aspect, but I just wonder whether it is wrong player selection to have two very offensively minded fullbacks. Libby was decent mostly, but I'd take Callan Elliot over Dane Ingham, he's more stable and Ingham is a bit of a wannabe winger anyway.
I thought the centre mids were average and let Honduras take control of the game, again IMO should have been supported by Stensness and a back four played.
Subs in all positions did not have much impact I thought Waine was poor in particular.
Wood, McCowatt, Just I can't really fault, I think they did well with what they had and showed great movement at times.
And finally Danny Hay, I'm not gonna get stuck in and make him out like he's hopeless like others have, and in fact I gave him great credit for the way we defended against Korea. But he just got it totally wrong here - both times we sat on the lead and invited pressure. Inviting pressure was fine against Korea who are a very technical, patient attacking side but without a lot of flair or pace, but against Honduras, with the flair and pace they have and that we should know they have, you just can't do that. Especially not going to work when our two experienced centre backs are out...
Not the way we did, they were getting heaps of leeway. When you sit back that much, the other team knows you can't threaten them much, and it boosts their confidence and willingness to play risky, creative passes. Honduras were fantastic in the last 20-30 minutes of the game.
With a weakened defence and the attacking quality they have, we at least could have kept it competitive in the middle of the park, keep threatening to get that third goal and keep making them think about defending as well.
Only at about 80th/85th minute should you start being as standoffish as we were.
That was directed at any of the above posts who think we shouldn’t destroy a young keepers confidence by dropping him.
Better to do that then destroy our Olympic campaign which is exactly what will happen if he plays the next game and if Hay plays him he should resign the following day
That was directed at any of the above posts who think we shouldn’t destroy a young keepers confidence by dropping him.
Better to do that then destroy our Olympic campaign which is exactly what will happen if he plays the next game and if Hay plays him he should resign the following day
I have never seen a keeper that bad
Again, you can't judge a keeper by one game. He was fantastic at the the U20 World Cup, is still young at 22 years old and is obviously good enough to be starting for a team pushing for the Eredivisie. He is also capable of making some fantastic saves as we have seen him do in the past 3 games. Woud is most likely the future of the NZ #1 shirt, dropping him for way more inexperienced keepers who have never made a single first team professional appearance is daft.
Exactly what fantastic save, did he make in this game? The one that hit him in the face? BrockieTheGOAT
AucklandPhoenix
That was directed at any of the above posts who think we shouldn’t destroy a young keepers confidence by dropping him.
Better to do that then destroy our Olympic campaign which is exactly what will happen if he plays the next game and if Hay plays him he should resign the following day
I have never seen a keeper that bad
Again, you can't judge a keeper by one game. He was fantastic at the the U20 World Cup, is still young at 22 years old and is obviously good enough to be starting for a team pushing for the Eredivisie. He is also capable of making some fantastic saves as we have seen him do in the past 3 games. Woud is most likely the future of the NZ #1 shirt, dropping him for way more inexperienced keepers who have never made a single first team professional appearance is daft.
Exactly what fantastic save, did he make in this game? The one that hit him in the face? BrockieTheGOAT
AucklandPhoenix
That was directed at any of the above posts who think we shouldn’t destroy a young keepers confidence by dropping him.
Better to do that then destroy our Olympic campaign which is exactly what will happen if he plays the next game and if Hay plays him he should resign the following day
I have never seen a keeper that bad
Again, you can't judge a keeper by one game. He was fantastic at the the U20 World Cup, is still young at 22 years old and is obviously good enough to be starting for a team pushing for the Eredivisie. He is also capable of making some fantastic saves as we have seen him do in the past 3 games. Woud is most likely the future of the NZ #1 shirt, dropping him for way more inexperienced keepers who have never made a single first team professional appearance is daft.
He made at least two big one-on-one saves, the one in the first half when the striker did turned his defender and another in the second half. Saves don’t count less based on what part of body you use to make them, it’s stopping them that matters. It’s surprising to see people who constantly bring up the 2019 U20s gloss over the fact Woud kept them in the game against Colombia, and would’ve won the game for them had VAR not intervened inconsistently in the shootout.
It’s been mentioned several places, but mistakes get magnified so much when you’re a goalkeeper, take the third goal for example, very little mention of Stensness carrying it out, passing it straight to their midfielder who plays the ball in behind Stensness giving them the space, and then Stanger not closing down the striker. Similar arguments can be made for both other goals.
Searle is still playing youth football, and Paulsen is coming off finishing last in the ISPS Handa Prem, and people who watched those games will know that he made a few glaring errors also. Nothing against them, but it would be a huge call to drop either of them in the deep end for a crucial final group stage, and if God forbid either of them made a mistake, I’m sure all the anti-Hay mob will be crying as to why they were playing as well.
I'm probably in the minority but I would have loved to see Kosta in the team instead of Boxall. Imagine the service he could have provided to Wood.
I mentioned this a few months ago.
As promising as Just & McCowatt are, I'd still at this stage go for Kosta & Rojas to partner Wood in those big AWs games next year. Last night's game in it's own way, showed the huge value of having older experienced heads on the pitch. Both Barba and Marco have a tonne of international experience, and have played with Wood for years.
But with the 2 weeks MIQ requirement in Aussie (as per NZ) for returning overseas travellers, neither Kosta or Rojas are likely to feature for the AWs until maybe the March FIFA window next year at the earliest. Mooted OFC January tourney an outside bet. Maybe not even until those big June 2022 intercontinental playoffs. Kosta from memory still hasn't played a game under Hay (missed those Nov 2019 games) - yet he still shapes as a very important player for the national team! You can learn only so much from Zoom calls.
At least Boxall is a chance of featuring for AWs later this year if they get some Euro based friendlies. Esp the Nov window, as MLS season should be over by then.
I hope Hay is not totally infatuated by his old ES Handy Prem youngsters, and still thinks likes of Rojas & Barba have an AWs future. But yes is going to be very hard in these pandemic times to get them into AWs environment leading up to June 2022.
Been disappointed in McCowatt’s contribution so far. I rated him almost as highly as Libby, but he didn’t, I think, quite know his role at the Nix. Certainly haven’t seen a moment of quality from him yet as we have from others of his pedigree.
des laid down a modern playing style, which he and the team implemented really well. like alf, it's the most i'd enjoyed watching a new zealand team play. neil emblen's all whites and oly whites also deserve a mention in this regard.
des is huge on team culture. he created a positive winning environment with the under 20s which carried on to the under23s in qualifying.
does this team have a culture problem?
Been discussing this with a couple of people today. When this squad was at the U20 world Cup in 2019, we controlled 3 of our 4 games for large parts. Including against Colombia and Norway. Uruguay being the exception. We played as if we didn't care who the opposition was. Des has talked about his 80/20 rule. They spend 80% of the time talking about what the team will do, and 20% of the time on what the opposition will do.
I just don't see this with this team. We looked scared/timid to try take charge. We sit back, be reactionary and struggling to create chances. The style we had back then looks gone.
I think one of the major issues that are costing the team in both games thus far is the piss poor passing and gifting the ball way too often. These guys should be doing better than that at this level. This isn't a Labour Weekend tournament, it's the Olympics. Some serious reflection on possession and passing needs to be addressed immediately.
I think one of the major issues that are costing the team in both games thus far is the piss poor passing and gifting the ball way too often. These guys should be doing better than that at this level. This isn't a Labour Weekend tournament, it's the Olympics. Some serious reflection on possession and passing needs to be addressed immediately.
I agree, especially in the centre mid, its been amateur hour. I'm not a fan of Hay but I do wonder if we'd see better stats/result if they could just stop passing it directly to the oppositio.
Thoughts on us at Olympic level: Okay, so we have to come down to earth and realise we are not world-beaters by any means.... And with our small population, isolation in the mediocre OFC, meagre finances and general lack of public passion and even interest in our domestic football (apart from the Phoenix to some extent when they're doing well and the four-yearly Trans-Continental World Cup play-off), we're not likely to be anywhere near the level of our opponents any time soon in Olympics in men's or women's football or in senior World Cups. i always viewed our chances in these Olympics through that prism and haven't been expecting too much. So I was pleasantly surprised by our result vs. Korea first up. Disappointed by the Honduras result due to our overly defensive approach and lack of midfield creativity plus the errors, goalkeeper and otherwise. Because although Honduras have a couple of very accomplished players, overall they look pretty average. As do Romania, luckily for us in the next game. Every NZ side is going to have a few players who really aren't up to the rquired level and that is evident here. But, oh, what about the wonderful individuals we are producing like Cacace and Singh? Eli Just looks a good one for the future too. And I like Pijnaker.
Tomorrow: We are very lucky with our yellow card situation with only Lewis of the starters carrying one and Stamenic and Waine of the subs. Stupid rule in this tournament that any two yellows in different group games means a player misses the next game. Romania: starting midfielder Ion Gheorghe will be missing against us having received a red card in their last game. Otherwise they only have a few players with one yellow.
