The "Move to Asia" thing...

So I was reflecting on my earlier post (in the 2021 Fixtures thread) about how the move to Asia won’t happen.  That remains true, but then I got thinking, “What if we brought Asia to us?”  Bear with me on this…

New Zealand holds no appeal to Asia (due mainly to size, small market etc), so we can’t move that way, and OFC wouldn’t permit it anyway as it’d be the death knell for Oceania. But what if OFC and NZ actively invited/courted new members to join Oceania?  For argument's sake, I’m going to start with the idea of Indonesia, Taiwan, Hong Kong and the Philippines.  These 4 all have a border/physical connection with the Pacific Ocean, so technically fit Oceania to start with.  None of them are heavy hitters in the Asian scene, so chances are AFC wouldn’t object if they wanted to make the move.  It would potentially also mean less travel distance for other Asian countries, so that may also be seen as a plus.  But what would be in it for these four countries to join OFC?

Firstly, they’d potentially find Oceania a more realistic competitive level for their national sides.  They tend to get pretty much dealt to by the large Asian countries, but the likes of Indonesia might back their chances against the likes of New Zealand and Fiji.  Secondly, the proximity factor could be appealing – getting to New Zealand and Pacific countries to play would potentially be easier/faster than the likes of Uzbekistan, Lebanon and North Korea.  Thirdly, there’s the possibility of clubs joining in with the Oceania Champions League, which would expand the potential market and audience (and possibly more avenue for success than the Asian Champions League).  Fourthly, there is another carrot of the age-group World Cups and Oceania having more than one qualifying spot, which they may feel they have more chance of getting than in Asia (none of these four has ever qualified for U17s, and only Indonesia has made the U20s - that was back in 1979, and for context, they played against a teenaged Maradona!).  And fifth, they would potentially see all these avenues as a way of improving and enhancing their own chances globally.  Sure, it would mean less chance of playing the likes of the big teams like Japan, South Korea, etc, and they may prefer to stay as the tiny fish in the big pool - but there is also history of being connected to the Oceania region in the past, especially in the cases of Taiwan and Indonesia, and there could potentially be some appeal there to give themselves something approximating a fighting chance.

So what’s in it for us/OFC?  Firstly, expanding the membership of the Confederation, with countries that are (no disrespect intended) bigger, more populous and more football orientated than many of the current OFC members is no bad thing.  Football is very popular in Indonesia, and has smaller but committed followings in the other suggested countries.  A bigger OFC membership aids the Confederation’s credibility on several fronts, which could help in the longer term when trying to argue for more favourable arrangements with FIFA.  Secondly, by expanding the pool of potential OFC opponents, we’re adding to the potential market/TV audience for things like the Oceania Nations Cup, Youth level championships, and World Cup qualifiers.  If the number of people watching the OFC Nations Cup suddenly jumps by several million because Indonesia and Taiwan are involved, that has numerous benefits for all involved.  Thirdly, it offers more development experiences for the other (non-NZ) members of OFC – one of their biggest challenges is getting fixtures outside of OFC, but if OFC is now expanded there are more chances in-built, with the possibility of more (and more challenging games) to help develop players and raise standards.  Fourthly, the ideal arrangement of an Oceania team being granted entry to the final stages of Asian World Cup qualifying takes a boost if OFC is bigger, and has more of a membership connection to the region (if FIFA made noises about reducing Asia’s World Cup allocations due to reduced membership, then they could respond by including an Oceania team – probably assuming it wouldn’t pose a threat…).  Fifth, it shows a proactive move to enhance football in our region, without necessarily causing political damage with AFC and FIFA.  And who knows, if it works, perhaps the likes of Singapore and Malaysia would show an interest in following suit…

This is all just thinking aloud, and I’m positive there are plenty of ‘cons’ to these explained ‘pros’ that people will speedily offer.  But the idea was, if we can’t go to Asia, bring Asia to us – in part with members, and in part by increased appeal and connection due to those members.  I could see a couple of current OFC members objecting (probably fearing slipping down the pecking order with new opponents on board), but the others would hopefully see it for the benefits it could also bring them.

So yeh, just an idea.

I reckon you could get buy in from the Middle Eastern countries for the same reason they don’t want Australia, travel. Indonesia, Philippines, even Malaysia can be a decent travel for Saudi, UAE, Qatar, who are probably heavy hitters in AFC governance. 

Football is massive in Indonesia, yet they’ve not really done anything in the game, they’re ranked 171 in the world, and don’t really have a chance of challenging South Korea, Japan, Middle Eastern teams so why not. Solomon Islands are ranked 140, and PNG 164, to provide a point as to how low Indonesia are. AFC even has teams like Guam, who are Pacific teams much more similar to OFC, and even participate in the Pacific Games. 

These large population countries (Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines) would back themselves at home against us, if they made it uncomfortable like how the islands do, so there’s probably better chances to qualify for World Cups. In a 48 team World Cup it goes to 1.5 spots, and we’ve seen youth tournaments now give two OFC spots and how NZ youth teams have gone from losing 13-0 and conceding 22 in 3 games, to qualifying for knockout stages, so there’s a carrot there too.

Could also use China to get the teams from Taiwan, Macau and Hong Kong on board, and we’ve seen they can be competitive with OFC teams, given we laboured past them in India in 2018, and they have played the Solomons recently too. 

It’s all pretty unlikely, but it’s a good shout and more viable and likely to happen than New Zealand (then all OFC) going into AFC.

Some interesting ideas. The carrot of a much easier path for age-group World Cups plus Womens World Cup (2 spots Oceania WWC 2023), could certainly be attractive to likes of Indonesia.

But as an AWs fan, the prospect of playing the Indonesians, Malaysia, Philippines etc is not much more attractive than playing the Island nations. That's just me.

A combined AFC/OFC Nations League in the first 2 years of any World Cup cycle, say split West Asia - East Asia/OFC, with AWs put in a home away pool with Japan, China, Sth Korea & Socceroos, now that would be exciting. With some meaningful AWs games actually played at home, showcasing this current talented group in NZ. 

The Nations League games, doubling up as Asian Cup qualifiers for the AFC teams. Much the same as UEFA now runs it's Nations League games as qualifiers for the Euros also.

Then AWs & Island teams move into OFC WC qualifying for the last 2 years of the cycle. The Island teams also participating in an AFC/OFC Nations League, playing lower ranked AFC teams, with pro/rel between different divisions.

Even better of course would be a complete split off, of West & East Asia, and OFC chucked in with East Asia. Thought of playing the Japans, Australia, Koreas etc home & away would be exciting. Malaysia & Guam much less so.

But pressure needs to be put on NZF to do something. Sure they have very limited power with likes of AFC/FIFA, but current setup of virtually no games apart from the odd friendly with very much 2nd string selections in first 2 years of a WC cycle, followed by OFC qualifying in last 2 years is just shark house, when trying to promote football in NZ.  The 2 big intercontinental playoff games briefly for about 2 weeks put the AWs up as the no 1 sports news story. Then for 3 years they are barely talked about again, unless of course they actually qualify for the big dance like 2010.

So NZF need to try their damnest to find a format that brings big quality meaningful AWs games to NZ, regularly.

And that AWs team that played in India 2018, was very much an AWs 'B' selection.

You make your bed, you lay in it. NZ can move to Asia it’s not impossible, however can they afford it?. The cost of being in the AFC had almost crippled Football Australia let alone the ACL and A-League clubs. And I can’t see any AFC country wanting to join Oceania no matter what. Best you could hope for is expansion in OFC with more island nations joining.

I wonder if there are financial benefits in AFC that would not be available to them in OFC?

Napier Phoenix

I wonder if there are financial benefits in AFC that would not be available to them in OFC?

TV deal, all WCQ games each team gets US $1m from the AFC each game. NZF could not on sell games like they did vs Mexico but $1m a game is pretty good even when your playing some one like Taiwan. AFC owns the TV rights to its own Qualifiers. 
 

I like the idea and can see how it would be beneficial for OFC - I can also see why the AFC teams might not want to bother, as well as why the NZF heads would be like Coochie and be unimpressed about playing lower rankled Asian teams - thinking we deserve better. No harm in trying to make it work and getting FIFA's attention with a novel idea. Who knows maybe it will result in some benefits. It has to be better than just crying from the same old song sheet.

I get how games against Indonesia/Malaysia etc might not be that more appealing than PNG, NCL or the Solomons, but if anything it’d add variety to OFC, which currently has only 11 full member teams, but four of those are Tonga, Samoa, American Samoa and CookIslands who battle out for last in the world rankings. 

Having more teams would make it more interesting in the qualifiers, and might add more meaning to the Nations Cup. It’s easy to say they wouldn’t add anything, given they’re ranked in the mid 100s in the world, but New Zealand is only ranked 119th at the moment, and were of course 161st five years ago when Hudson was calling out NZF, so there could be some delusions of grandeur of how good the team is. We have only 4 wins out of the last 30 against non-OFC opposition, going back to 2012, conceding 49 and scoring only 20, and of the opposition only Portugal and maybe Mexico were truly top class teams and we aggregate 17 against and just 5 for in the 5 games. 

Trouble is, as mentioned by others, is that there are too few competitive games and too many friendlies. Friendly losses you can justify until the cows come home given they don’t count for anything but pride, and talk about work in progress etc but they’ll never truly replicate the pressure of needing a result. I’d take a qualifier against Fiji over a friendly vs China, and we’d get more out of a Fiji game, not to mention they force NZF to host the game as opposed to having a 3am kick off time and no mainstream media coverage. 

Some of the close results against island teams have been with weakened teams, but how many times have we seen players pull out/be injured when push comes to shove. It’s all well and good saying when we drew against PNG/Solomons/NCL we had none of the big three of Reid, Wood or Thomas, but if that comes in a must win game suddenly there’s a big issue. Honiara 2012 the epitome of that, and almost also NCL in Dunedin 2012 when we needed a 90+3 winner or we could’ve been out

My opinion only here, but as someone who follows the ASEAN football matches, I have to say teams like Vietnam, Thailand and the Philippines are of decent quality and are far better than any OFC pacific island opposition. 

It’s the next tier up of China, South Korea, Japan that obviously AFC would need to keep. 

But the less competitive nations like Timor-Leste, Indonesia, Laos & Mongolia are the ones realistically that would shift across from AFC to OFC if that were to ever happen. 

The following countries are pretty similar to Nz in the way they play and their level of football:

- Hong Kong
- Singapore
- Philippines
- Vietnam 
- India 
- Thailand 
- Malaysia 

I wouldn’t mind if our NT played all these nations for a whole year to test the waters and if these nations came across to play to OFC, there would definitely be far better competitive matches for NZ. 

I was having a long think on the toilet seat before and I thought about the Middle East creating their own confederation and expanding that to 8. 

Thought that would be a decent shout, but I can’t see any of that happening. 

Taiwan was in OFC and left.  What would bring them back in?

While the idea seems nice on paper, I think culturally those countries have more in common with China, Korea and Japan then us.

The only change I could ever forsee happening is the Middle East breaking away but given that Armenia, Azerbaijan, Israel, Turkey and Kazakhstan* are all in Europe and Egypt in Africa means a lot of nations would have to change Association. Compounding this Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Yemen are all toast domestically with civil war and Iran is the pariah of West Asia politically.

I can't ever see that happening.

*Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Meant Kazakhstan not Uzbekistan.

Marto

Taiwan was in OFC and left.  What would bring them back in?

While the idea seems nice on paper, I think culturally those countries have more in common with China, Korea and Japan then us.

The only change I could ever forsee happening is the Middle East breaking away but given that Armenia, Azerbaijan, Israel, Turkey and Uzbekistan are all in Europe and Egypt in Africa means a lot of nations would have to change Association. Compounding this Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Yemen are all toast domestically with civil war and Iran is the pariah of West Asia politically.

I can't ever see that happening.

Uzbekistan are part of AFC ain't they. And as Khalil has mentioned the carrot of easier age group WC/WWC cup qualification, could be attractive to some of the smaller East Asian AFC nations. Personally though I find idea of playing bigger East Asia AFC teams in a AFC/OFC Nations League more attractive. 

Infantino is a strong promoter of a Global Nations League, so who knows what may happen beyond 2022 World Cup.

Taiwan were in OFC because China would not recognise their independenc and refused to play them. FIFA moved them to Oceania along with Israel who UEFA and Asia would not house.

Why don't FIFA make it "Asia East" and "Asia West"? put the middle eastern countries and India, Pakistan as well as the countries in and around Russia etc into the eastern one and China, japan, Aussie, Us and whoever into the Western one. Might mean we play 16 games for example for qualification but that's better than playing none.

Lonegunmen

Why don't FIFA make it "Asia East" and "Asia West"? put the middle eastern countries and India, Pakistan as well as the countries in and around Russia etc into the eastern one and China, japan, Aussie, Us and whoever into the Western one. Might mean we play 16 games for example for qualification but that's better than playing none.

money!
Pretty sure those nations wont want to leave the the Asian Confed cos they get loads of cash when playing the bigger teams to play the likes of us, Fiji, Tahiti etc

Lonegunmen

Why don't FIFA make it "Asia East" and "Asia West"? put the middle eastern countries and India, Pakistan as well as the countries in and around Russia etc into the eastern one and China, japan, Aussie, Us and whoever into the Western one. Might mean we play 16 games for example for qualification but that's better than playing none.

Asia is already split into 5 sub-federations so the logical split is for the 3 western most sub-federations (West Asia (12), Central Asia (6), Southern Asia(7)) to go one way, and the 2 eastern most sub-federations (ASEAN (12), East Asia (10)) to partner up with Oceania (13) (who would effectively become a sub-federation)  go the other.

Reasons I can think of it not happening already is a) there must be a flow of cash west to east b) religious ties c) current headquarters of Asia is in Malaysia: all combine that sees the ASEAN countries in particular look west rather than upto China/Japan/Korea d) one country one vote.

I think it would have to be FIFA directive to make it happen and that can only happen if non-Asia countries gang up within FIFA on Asia for some reason to make it happen.

Funnily enough, the catalyst for something like this to happen would have to be one of the island teams getting the automatic World Cup spot instead of us, and put up a historically bad World Cup (double digits bad) to get FIFA to either disband OFC or make it 0.5 as is now. 

2026 World cup could see some changes with the proposed expansions to either 40 or 48 teams.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_FIFA_World_Cup
OFC get a guaranteed spot.

carlind

Funnily enough, the catalyst for something like this to happen would have to be one of the island teams getting the automatic World Cup spot instead of us, and put up a historically bad World Cup (double digits bad) to get FIFA to either disband OFC or make it 0.5 as is now. 

2026 WC is planned for 48 teams and OFC with 1.5 spots. So a WC playoff route will stay alive, just not likely to involve the AWs (probable OFC winners). Actually planned to be a 6 team tourney with a team from every confederation bar UEFA, and 2 teams from WC host confederation, ie 2 teams from CONCACAF WC 2026. 

So yes is possible one of the Island teams could get past the likes of Oman and El Salvador, and make it to North America 2026.

Tony Smith rehashes it.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/world-cup/130776344/should-the-all-whites-future-be-in-asia-instead-of-direct-oceania-entry-to-world-cup

Another option is for Oceania to join one of the America's confederations, CONCACAF has better connections (with Hawaii in the pacific) but there was that rumor that CONMEBOL wanted NZ to join a few years back. 

Perhaps NZF could ask the NZ Govt in invade say Fiji, to get us into the AFC.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/world-game/300774108/russia-mulling-asia-switch-amid-european-football-ban

coochiee

Perhaps NZF could ask the NZ Govt in invade say Fiji, to get us into the AFC.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/world-game/300774108/russia-mulling-asia-switch-amid-european-football-ban

Don't give them any ideas, certain hotheads really were suggesting an ANZAC invasion of the Solomon Islands to teach them for playing footsie with Beijing (which, yes, IMHO, would have been just as reprehensible as Russia/Ukraine)

You must play in some interesting circles, first I have heard of that possible invasion. Thanks for the heads up

First I've heard of any invasion suggestions as well. Pretty extreme solution. But would definitely be saving the Solomons from themselves. 

You invite the pure evil that is the CCP into your home, there is only 1 winner in the long term. 

Anyway the Fijian invasion idea was a joke. Be interesting to see if the AFC do incorporate Russia.

coochiee

First I've heard of any invasion suggestions as well. Pretty extreme solution. But would definitely be saving the Solomons from themselves. 

You invite the pure evil that is the CCP into your home, there is only 1 winner in the long term. 

Anyway the Fijian invasion idea was a joke. Be interesting to see if the AFC do incorporate Russia.

It's easier in New Zealand to look down on the Solomons for accepting China, but it's a similar outlook to what China have been doing in Africa for decades. These countries are heavily impoverished, and China comes in and 'gifts' them plenty at low interest rates. There's been over 30 stadiums built by the Chinese across sub-Saharan Africa since 2000 (every sub-Saharan-hosted AFCON since then has had Chinese built stadiums), and some in Togo and CAR are just free, not to mention other facilities. China knows it can ever build its soft power empire this way, and there is a quote from a Sierra Leone ambassador saying 'If a G8 country had wanted to rebuild our stadium, we'd still be holding meetings.'

As for Russia-AFC, I reckon its not unlikely, given they'd provide a bit for the confederation. They obviously have a lot of potential for sponsorship revenue and would straight away be one of the better teams at the top of AFC. Gazprom have been UEFA and FIFA sponsors for a while, and those won't have come cheap, and if the AFC were able to get a portion of that then it would make them an attractive proposition. Having better teams increases the standard of competition, and Russia would do that, at club level also. They are possibly in a lull at the moment after their Uzbekistan and Tajikistan results, but have promising young players, as well as a large population that have a large interest in the sport. There are arguments that that quality would count against their potential admittance, as teams would be voting for a team to take their spot, but the increase in World Cup spots, as well as 24 team Asian Cups, could dispel those fears.

Geographically, it does stretch the confederation from Kaliningrad to SE Australia, but Russia does obviously stretch right over to the Pacific in the east. Any change could encourage use of cities like Vladivostok on the Korean border, but likely Moscow would still be the chief city used, and flight times from Japan/Korea are the same if not less to Moscow than to Melbourne. Australia will always be an outlier given where they are, but given the confederation stretches all the way to the Med, then it's not much difference. The mention in several places of how it could lead to Zenit/Spartak/CSKA vs A League clubs in AFC CL is also a bit disingenuous, as the competition is already split geographically all the way to the final, so it wouldn't affect them.

Geopolitically, its also a bit awkward. Some countries are closely aligned, such as some of the former Soviet states and Iran, some are indifferent or hold some business, and then some are US-aligned and strongly against them. There is probably more sympathy to the Russian players in AFC countries, especially as many will view their suspension as hypocritical in regards to other countries that have been 'active' in the region and not been banned. Ultimately, I'd think that the nations vehemently against them would probably be outnumbered.

Switching to the theme of this thread, unfounded hope, the admittance of Russia could be the first catalyst towards a total geographical east/west split and then the possible dissolution of OFC. It's more than unlikely, but, under the guise of logistical difficulties due to the size, the Japans/Australias/South Koreas could try to encourage FIFA to reconsider the confederation's make-up. The status quo won't help the All Whites at all, so any miniscule chance that change might happen should be appreciated.

carlind

coochiee

First I've heard of any invasion suggestions as well. Pretty extreme solution. But would definitely be saving the Solomons from themselves. 

You invite the pure evil that is the CCP into your home, there is only 1 winner in the long term. 

Anyway the Fijian invasion idea was a joke. Be interesting to see if the AFC do incorporate Russia.

It's easier in New Zealand to look down on the Solomons for accepting China, but it's a similar outlook to what China have been doing in Africa for decades. These countries are heavily impoverished, and China comes in and 'gifts' them plenty at low interest rates. There's been over 30 stadiums built by the Chinese across sub-Saharan Africa since 2000 (every sub-Saharan-hosted AFCON since then has had Chinese built stadiums), and some in Togo and CAR are just free, not to mention other facilities. China knows it can ever build its soft power empire this way, and there is a quote from a Sierra Leone ambassador saying 'If a G8 country had wanted to rebuild our stadium, we'd still be holding meetings.'

As for Russia-AFC, I reckon its not unlikely, given they'd provide a bit for the confederation. They obviously have a lot of potential for sponsorship revenue and would straight away be one of the better teams at the top of AFC. Gazprom have been UEFA and FIFA sponsors for a while, and those won't have come cheap, and if the AFC were able to get a portion of that then it would make them an attractive proposition. Having better teams increases the standard of competition, and Russia would do that, at club level also. They are possibly in a lull at the moment after their Uzbekistan and Tajikistan results, but have promising young players, as well as a large population that have a large interest in the sport. There are arguments that that quality would count against their potential admittance, as teams would be voting for a team to take their spot, but the increase in World Cup spots, as well as 24 team Asian Cups, could dispel those fears.

Geographically, it does stretch the confederation from Kaliningrad to SE Australia, but Russia does obviously stretch right over to the Pacific in the east. Any change could encourage use of cities like Vladivostok on the Korean border, but likely Moscow would still be the chief city used, and flight times from Japan/Korea are the same if not less to Moscow than to Melbourne. Australia will always be an outlier given where they are, but given the confederation stretches all the way to the Med, then it's not much difference. The mention in several places of how it could lead to Zenit/Spartak/CSKA vs A League clubs in AFC CL is also a bit disingenuous, as the competition is already split geographically all the way to the final, so it wouldn't affect them.

Geopolitically, its also a bit awkward. Some countries are closely aligned, such as some of the former Soviet states and Iran, some are indifferent or hold some business, and then some are US-aligned and strongly against them. There is probably more sympathy to the Russian players in AFC countries, especially as many will view their suspension as hypocritical in regards to other countries that have been 'active' in the region and not been banned. Ultimately, I'd think that the nations vehemently against them would probably be outnumbered.

Switching to the theme of this thread, unfounded hope, the admittance of Russia could be the first catalyst towards a total geographical east/west split and then the possible dissolution of OFC. It's more than unlikely, but, under the guise of logistical difficulties due to the size, the Japans/Australias/South Koreas could try to encourage FIFA to reconsider the confederation's make-up. The status quo won't help the All Whites at all, so any miniscule chance that change might happen should be appreciated.

You're right, Russia does stretch right to the Pacific - I really hope that doesn't give OFC officials any bright ideas...

I don't know what the answer is to this but something needs to change, and soon! The South East Asian nations (Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines) merging into OFC would be interesting and open up new sponsorship opportunities and income for FIFA, as well as providing NZ with more competitive fixtures.

The other 10 OFC nations rarely play outside of WC qualifying or the Pacific Games, and between them they have played a total of just 29 fixtures against teams from outside the OFC in the last 20 years (4 of those were against Guam).

Full internationals against non-OFC teams with full FIFA membership since 2000 (Excluding fixtures against Australia when they were OFC members. Excluding fixtures against non-FIFA members such as Guadeloupe, Martinique etc in the Coupe de L'Outre-Mer).

FIJI
4-1 v Malaysia (h) 2001
2-0 v Malaysia (h) 2001
1-2 v Malaysia (h) 2001
1-0 v India (h) 2005
2-1 v India (h) 2005
1-1 v Malaysia (h) 2016
0-0 v Indonesia (a) 2017
0-2 v Estonia (h) 2017
2-3 v Philippines (a) 2018
0-1 v Malaysia (a) 2018
0-2 v Singapore (a) 2018
1-0 v Mauritius (h) 2019

PAPUA NEW GUINEA
1-2 v Singapore (a) 2014
0-5 v Philippines (a) 2014
2-0 v Malaysia (h) 2016
1-8 v Iran (n) 2016
1-2 v Malaysia (a) 2016

SOLOMON ISLANDS
7-0 v Guam (n) 2011
4-1 v Macau (a) 2018
1-0 v Chinese Taipei (a) 2019
3-4 v Singapore (a) 2019

NEW CALEDONIA
9-0 v Guam (n) 2011
1-2 v Malaysia (h) 2016
1-1 v Estonia (h) 2017
1-3 v Mauritius (n) 2019

VANUATU
4-1 v Guam (n) 2011
0-1 v Estonia (h) 2017
0-6 v Indonesia (a) 2019

TAHITI
1-6 v Nigeria (n) 2013
0-10 v Spain (n) 2013
0-8 v Uruguay (n) 2013

AMERICAN SAMOA
0-2 v Guam (n) 2011

No fixtures for Cook Islands, Samoa or Tonga.

Firstly, where was our invite from Estonia in 2017 lol? Secondly, and more importantly, the OFC nations have more or less held their own against the South East Asian sides this Millennium, with some interesting results. 

NZ have played SE Asian teams 7 times in the same time period...
Malaysia (Pd 4, Won 3)
Singapore (Pd 1, Won 0)
Thailand (Pd 2, Won 0)

Maybe OFC could test the waters and invite some of the ASEAN teams to the next OFC Nations Cup, or gain invites to the AFF Cup (a 10 team tournament taking place right now). An ASEAN/OFC merge could be really appealing, especially if FIFA throw another WC qualifying spot that way for future WCs.

I do love the idea of OFC inviting other nations to our confederations cup. We've seen other confederations do it before. Why not us? I hate how as an All Whites fan it still feels kind of novel whenever we do come up against a side from outside our confederation. It must be that feeling tripled for fans of other OFC sides. If the mountain won't come to Mohammed....

Also I remember being pretty amused at Estonia's wild tour of the pacific at the time. No idea how it came into fruition, seems like a costly jaunt for not too much benefit from Estonia's point of view. But if I do recall correctly our pacific Island brothers made a fairly reasonable account for themselves even if it was essentially a glorified Under 23's side Estonia sent over.

Khalil Media

carlind

coochiee

First I've heard of any invasion suggestions as well. Pretty extreme solution. But would definitely be saving the Solomons from themselves. 

You invite the pure evil that is the CCP into your home, there is only 1 winner in the long term. 

Anyway the Fijian invasion idea was a joke. Be interesting to see if the AFC do incorporate Russia.

It's easier in New Zealand to look down on the Solomons for accepting China, but it's a similar outlook to what China have been doing in Africa for decades. These countries are heavily impoverished, and China comes in and 'gifts' them plenty at low interest rates. There's been over 30 stadiums built by the Chinese across sub-Saharan Africa since 2000 (every sub-Saharan-hosted AFCON since then has had Chinese built stadiums), and some in Togo and CAR are just free, not to mention other facilities. China knows it can ever build its soft power empire this way, and there is a quote from a Sierra Leone ambassador saying 'If a G8 country had wanted to rebuild our stadium, we'd still be holding meetings.'

As for Russia-AFC, I reckon its not unlikely, given they'd provide a bit for the confederation. They obviously have a lot of potential for sponsorship revenue and would straight away be one of the better teams at the top of AFC. Gazprom have been UEFA and FIFA sponsors for a while, and those won't have come cheap, and if the AFC were able to get a portion of that then it would make them an attractive proposition. Having better teams increases the standard of competition, and Russia would do that, at club level also. They are possibly in a lull at the moment after their Uzbekistan and Tajikistan results, but have promising young players, as well as a large population that have a large interest in the sport. There are arguments that that quality would count against their potential admittance, as teams would be voting for a team to take their spot, but the increase in World Cup spots, as well as 24 team Asian Cups, could dispel those fears.

Geographically, it does stretch the confederation from Kaliningrad to SE Australia, but Russia does obviously stretch right over to the Pacific in the east. Any change could encourage use of cities like Vladivostok on the Korean border, but likely Moscow would still be the chief city used, and flight times from Japan/Korea are the same if not less to Moscow than to Melbourne. Australia will always be an outlier given where they are, but given the confederation stretches all the way to the Med, then it's not much difference. The mention in several places of how it could lead to Zenit/Spartak/CSKA vs A League clubs in AFC CL is also a bit disingenuous, as the competition is already split geographically all the way to the final, so it wouldn't affect them.

Geopolitically, its also a bit awkward. Some countries are closely aligned, such as some of the former Soviet states and Iran, some are indifferent or hold some business, and then some are US-aligned and strongly against them. There is probably more sympathy to the Russian players in AFC countries, especially as many will view their suspension as hypocritical in regards to other countries that have been 'active' in the region and not been banned. Ultimately, I'd think that the nations vehemently against them would probably be outnumbered.

Switching to the theme of this thread, unfounded hope, the admittance of Russia could be the first catalyst towards a total geographical east/west split and then the possible dissolution of OFC. It's more than unlikely, but, under the guise of logistical difficulties due to the size, the Japans/Australias/South Koreas could try to encourage FIFA to reconsider the confederation's make-up. The status quo won't help the All Whites at all, so any miniscule chance that change might happen should be appreciated.

You're right, Russia does stretch right to the Pacific - I really hope that doesn't give OFC officials any bright ideas...

Well, given we had Chinese Taipei and Israel in OFC when no-one else would take them, there must be a chance we'll be heading to Moscow for a 2026 World Cup qualifier at some point!

image.png 17.51 KB

image.png 14.08 KB

image.png 18.82 KB

image.png 48.15 KB

All of these scores have been this year at various OFC youth tournaments.... we need to get the heck out and fast. These games don't help anyone and only serve to hurt football in NZ and Oceania. 

Baby & bath water. 

You don't throw away all the benefits of being in easy (very easy in female football) OFC WC qualifying, just over blowout scores for various womens/girls teams - that are basically forgotten about in 2 weeks.

Moving to AFC has been debated a million times & they don't want us. 

SE Asian AFC countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand etc could be interested in joining OFC age group WC qualifying. That would give NZ teams genuine tough games, but seriously put at risk going to WCs. And how does FIFA allow that to happen over 2 different Confederations. As always it's complicated.

coochiee

Baby & bath water. 

You don't throw away all the benefits of being in easy (very easy in female football) OFC WC qualifying, just over blowout scores for various womens/girls teams - that are basically forgotten about in 2 weeks.

Moving to AFC has been debated a million times & they don't want us. 

SE Asian AFC countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand etc could be interested in joining OFC age group WC qualifying. That would give NZ teams genuine tough games, but seriously put at risk going to WCs. And how does FIFA allow that to happen over 2 different Confederations. As always it's complicated.

If some of those Asian teams joined Oceania, they might find it an easier route to get to the WC Finals.

LG

coochiee

Baby & bath water. 

You don't throw away all the benefits of being in easy (very easy in female football) OFC WC qualifying, just over blowout scores for various womens/girls teams - that are basically forgotten about in 2 weeks.

Moving to AFC has been debated a million times & they don't want us. 

SE Asian AFC countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand etc could be interested in joining OFC age group WC qualifying. That would give NZ teams genuine tough games, but seriously put at risk going to WCs. And how does FIFA allow that to happen over 2 different Confederations. As always it's complicated.

If some of those Asian teams joined Oceania, they might find it an easier route to get to the WC Finals.

I second this. 

Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and maybe the Philippines geographically would benefit along with the current OFC nations. They likely have zero chance of making the men’s WC through Asia but would rate their chances against NZ.

LG

coochiee

Baby & bath water. 

You don't throw away all the benefits of being in easy (very easy in female football) OFC WC qualifying, just over blowout scores for various womens/girls teams - that are basically forgotten about in 2 weeks.

Moving to AFC has been debated a million times & they don't want us. 

SE Asian AFC countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand etc could be interested in joining OFC age group WC qualifying. That would give NZ teams genuine tough games, but seriously put at risk going to WCs. And how does FIFA allow that to happen over 2 different Confederations. As always it's complicated.

If some of those Asian teams joined Oceania, they might find it an easier route to get to the WC Finals.

So maybe it's worth pondering why those nations aren't clamouring to join the OFC. Perhaps making the World Cup is not the be-all and end-all?

Games like 27-0 are yes just pointless. As I put in the U17 OFC tourney thread, OFC should restructure it to two Divisions A & B. Far from perfect but an improvement.

We 'only' beat Fiji 4-1. Tahiti look like they maybe not far off Fiji level. PNG ain't at this tourney (why?) but their senior Womens team won the last OFC Nations Cup (sans Ferns) and played in that WWC qualifying tourney earlier this year. PNG is the biggest nation in OFC with 7M people, they should have some potential for improvement in the women's game.

So Division A - NZ, Fiji, Tahiti & PNG.
The others in Division B. Less chance of 20 goal plus blowouts.

Vanuatu, Solomons & New Caledonia all look pretty useless in the women's space. No better than minnows Samoa, Tonga & Cooks. Put them on notice to raise their standards, or withdraw some OFC/FIFA funding or similar penalty. Their boys/mens ain't as bad, so why so terrible in the female space. Get their shark together. Today's U16 Vanuatu girls really had no clue. But they did a nicely choreographed post game dance.

" PNG ain't at this tourney (why?) "

Considering what happened at the men's U23, probably someone stuffed up the visas

New Zealand national sides in OFC tournaments post-COVID

Played 31, Won 30, Drew 1 (Vanuatu in Futsal), Lost 0
Won 7/7 tournaments we entered
Goals for - 212
Goals against - 12 (6 were in Futsal)

Thanks heaps, couldn't remember where on the Forum I'd posted this idea, completely forgot it was its own thread. Gracias :)

coochiee

Games like 27-0 are yes just pointless. As I put in the U17 OFC tourney thread, OFC should restructure it to two Divisions A & B. Far from perfect but an improvement.

We 'only' beat Fiji 4-1. Tahiti look like they maybe not far off Fiji level. PNG ain't at this tourney (why?) but their senior Womens team won the last OFC Nations Cup (sans Ferns) and played in that WWC qualifying tourney earlier this year. PNG is the biggest nation in OFC with 7M people, they should have some potential for improvement in the women's game.

So Division A - NZ, Fiji, Tahiti & PNG.
The others in Division B. Less chance of 20 goal plus blowouts.

Vanuatu, Solomons & New Caledonia all look pretty useless in the women's space. No better than minnows Samoa, Tonga & Cooks. Put them on notice to raise their standards, or withdraw some OFC/FIFA funding or similar penalty. Their boys/mens ain't as bad, so why so terrible in the female space. Get their shark together. Today's U16 Vanuatu girls really had no clue. But they did a nicely choreographed post game dance.

I'm not a fan of a Division A, Division B as it means teams in Division B have no chance at the beginning of the cycle, unless it is a case of playing Division B first  and the top 2 then also get to play in Division A.

For Oceania  my preferred format would be
Polynesia/East Group: Tahiti, Cook Is, American Samoa, Samoa, Tonga
Melanesia/West Group: Fiji, New Caledonia, Vanuatu, Solomon Is, Papua New Guinea.
Both groups (5 teams) play round-robin (5 rounds, 4 games)

Top 2 from each group + NZ + (host or 3rd in group containing host if host qualified or best 3rd from a group)) (6 teams) play round-robin, (5 rounds, 5 games).