Football Ferns

probably the same as why our men do so badly internationally given the quality we have abroad. Low game time, and actually playing/training together.

Would the Scottish Women's League be that strong? I seriously doubt it. W League is probably better quality

You have Erceg, Riley & Bowen in the USWL. Percival in the English Super League. Stott was there before her cancer. Moore plays for Liverpool but they are in the English Women's 2nd tier. And yes below this small core group of 'world class' Football Ferns (all defenders), there doesn't currently seem much depth. A Nix W League team will partly help fix that. Plus getting more girls into Weenix & Ole Academies - which after all is the path trod, by nearly all of this exciting generation of up & coming young Olywhites/AWs.

And Ferns on average play a hell a lot more often than the AWs. Think squad at the Olympics had like 7 centurions. Compared to the AWs they don't lack games together, these Covid times an exception with no lead up to the Olympics.

Lastly don't forget the Olympics for Womens football was only 12 teams, with 3 of the 4 semi finalists in the FFS pool. Bit like AWs having Brazil, Italy & Belgium as pool opponents. Was never going to be a great outcome for the Ferns, esp with virtual zero prep.

theprof

probably the same as why our men do so badly internationally given the quality we have abroad. Low game time, and actually playing/training together.

I reckon its lack of depth/quality more than anything. There are one or two playing at the highest level, but not the same as their opposition, take the Olympics for example Sweden, USA and Australia have more players at higher levels. 

Players of their quality are dime a dozen in Europe (men even more so), just you wouldn’t recognise someone playing in Iceland (Hassett) or a US University (Cleverly, Rennie) if they weren’t from NZ. Same as how you wouldn’t know Lillestrom’s (team above Joe Bell’s Viking) centre mid, or wingers for Fredericia (equal points as Helsingor) or a kid in Torino’s u19s if it wasn’t Matt Garbett. It’s why I don’t buy the expectations people had for the teams in Tokyo, both teams were odds on favourites to lose in all 7 games, the women were just more unlucky than the men

carlind

theprof

probably the same as why our men do so badly internationally given the quality we have abroad. Low game time, and actually playing/training together.

I reckon its lack of depth/quality more than anything. There are one or two playing at the highest level, but not the same as their opposition, take the Olympics for example Sweden, USA and Australia have more players at higher levels. 

Players of their quality are dime a dozen in Europe (men even more so), just you wouldn’t recognise someone playing in Iceland (Hassett) or a US University (Cleverly, Rennie) if they weren’t from NZ. Same as how you wouldn’t know Lillestrom’s (team above Joe Bell’s Viking) centre mid, or wingers for Fredericia (equal points as Helsingor) or a kid in Torino’s u19s if it wasn’t Matt Garbett. It’s why I don’t buy the expectations people had for the teams in Tokyo, both teams were odds on favourites to lose in all 7 games, the women were just more unlucky than the men

Mostly agree. 

Though think OlyWhites on paper were probable favourites to win the game they lost, being Honduras. That's after the Honduras senior team were playing in the CONCACAF Gold Cup at the same time as the Olympics with some of that country's best U23 talent, and the 5-0 thrashing dished out by our U20s in the 2019 WC. Woud/Stanger sadly had a mare, and Hay acknowleged he got it wrong by not making more changes to the team following a big effort in the sapping heat against Sth Korea in game 1.

But your overall point that there are many many other countries, with as much or more young talent (mens & womens) playing in Europe as us, stands for sure. No doubt the playing stocks of NZ's mens football are rising, but that's likely the same for many other 'developing' football countries, as they build their own new shiny academies, FIFA throws some cash around etc etc etc.

coochiee

carlind

theprof

probably the same as why our men do so badly internationally given the quality we have abroad. Low game time, and actually playing/training together.

I reckon its lack of depth/quality more than anything. There are one or two playing at the highest level, but not the same as their opposition, take the Olympics for example Sweden, USA and Australia have more players at higher levels. 

Players of their quality are dime a dozen in Europe (men even more so), just you wouldn’t recognise someone playing in Iceland (Hassett) or a US University (Cleverly, Rennie) if they weren’t from NZ. Same as how you wouldn’t know Lillestrom’s (team above Joe Bell’s Viking) centre mid, or wingers for Fredericia (equal points as Helsingor) or a kid in Torino’s u19s if it wasn’t Matt Garbett. It’s why I don’t buy the expectations people had for the teams in Tokyo, both teams were odds on favourites to lose in all 7 games, the women were just more unlucky than the men

Mostly agree. 

Though think OlyWhites on paper were probable favourites to win the game they lost, being Honduras. That's after the Honduras senior team were playing in the CONCACAF Gold Cup at the same time as the Olympics with some of that country's best U23 talent, and the 5-0 thrashing dished out by our U20s in the 2019 WC. Woud/Stanger sadly had a mare, and Hay acknowleged he got it wrong by not making more changes to the team following a big effort in the sapping heat against Sth Korea in game 1.

But your overall point that there are many many other countries, with as much or more young talent (mens & womens) playing in Europe as us, stands for sure. No doubt the playing stocks of NZ's mens football are rising, but that's likely the same for many other 'developing' football countries, as they build their own new shiny academies, FIFA throws some cash around etc etc etc.

The Honduras Gold Cup team didn't contain a single U-23 player.

Apologies, right you are, they obviously proritised the Olympics over the Gold Cup. Did Honduras take their 3 best available over age players to Tokyo, or leave them all to go to the Gold Cup?
https://us.soccerway.com/matches/2021/07/25/nc-america/concacaf-gold-cup/mexico/honduras/3506350/

But basically unimportant semantics, and overall support Carlind's agrument that people yes are in danger of over estimating the Olympics/AWs talent pool, without keeping an eye on all the other countries having plenty of young players up in Europe as well. 

And a bit similar as Chance scoring a double in a likely weak Scottish Womens League, for a club Celtic that has a proud history in the men's game, doesn't mean the Ferns should be better than they are.

Going to be interesting to see this 22 player squad. As its going to be Euro and US based players. first 15 or 16 are pretty obvious, but after that ????.
Good chance for some more US based college players to be given an opportunity. Jenkins, Abbott,  Tawharu etc. 

NZ women playing overseas.
a few more than what I realised.
From. The Ultimate NZ soccer website 

England
| Anna Leat | West Ham United
| Laura Merrin | Fylde
| Rosie Missen | Haringey Borough
| Meikayla Moore | LIVERPOOL :-)
| Ria Percival | Tottenham Hotspur
| Katie Rood | Southampton
Germany
| Jana Radosavljevic | BV Cloppenburg
Iceland
| Betsy Hassett | UMF Stjarnan
Norway
| Catherine Bott | Valerenga IF
| Victoria Esson | Avaldsnes IL
| Emma Rolston | Arna-Bjornar
Scotland
| Olivia Chance | Celtic
Spain
| Tayla Christensen | Malaga City
Sweden
 | Monique Fischer | Mallbrackens IF
 | Juliana Los | Torslanda IK
Canada
| Gabrielle Jillings | Surrey United
USA (NWSL)
| Katie Bowen | Kansas City
| Abby Erceg | North Carolina Courage
| Ali Riley | Orlando Pride
| Rosie White | Seattle (OL) Reign
USA
 | Amelia Abbott | Texas University
 | Jenny Bindon | Loyola Marymount University (coach)
 | Hannah Blake | Michigan University
 | Lily Bray | Houston University
 | Liz Crowe | Fairmont State University, West Virginia
 | Blair Currie | Seton Hall University, New Jersey
 | Emma Clarke | Houston University
 | Daisy Cleverley | Georgetown University
 | Issy Coombes | St. Mary's College, Moraga, California
 | Hope Gilchrist | Canisius College, Buffalo, New York
 | Anya Gross | King University, Bristol, Tennessee
 | Johanna Hamblett | Colorado College
 | Jacqui Hand | Colorado College
 | Tahlia Herman-Watt | Arizona State University
 | Sophie Hoare | Gwinnett College, Georgia
 | Jayme-Lee Hunter | Evansville University, Illinois
 | Deven Jackson | Western Kentucky University
 | Maggie Jenkins | Central Florida University
 | Anna McPhie | Austin Peay State University, Tennessee
 | Nicole Mettam | Texas Tech University
 | Sammy Murrell | Harvard University
 | Siobhan Patterson | Tennessee Wesleyan College
 | Gabrielle Rennie | Indiana University
 | Ella Smalley | North Country Community College, New York
 | Sophie Stewart-Hobbs | North Carolina University, Greensboro
 | Sammi Tawharu | Iowa University
 | Kayla Thomas | Radford University, Virginia
 | Danielle Turton | Tiffin University, Ohio
 | Gorgi Van Lienen | Post University, Connecticut
 | Beth Weller | Concordia-St. Paul University, Minnesota
 | Ella Wilson | Fairmont State University, West Virginia

Yes alot of the  current NZ players are unavailable for various reasons. I suspect so they are asking younger players if they are interested in playing, sounds like a friendly game?. Great exposure for the uncapped  new players whom have been asked already.

Good news about Rosie White. It's been a long recovery.

OL Reign midfielder Rosie White has been removed from the 45-day disabled list. White has been added back to the active roster and has rejoined the team for full training activities.

Also looks like Jana Radosavljevic  was recovered from her injury and has joined  

Arminia Bielefeld in the 2 Bundesliga Women league from Werner Bremen.

Going to be an interesting squad. A lot of people have been calling for some fresh faces in the Ferns set-up. Here is a good article on some potential candidates.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/126649341/graduation-day-looming-for-football-ferns-hopefuls-playing-in-the-us-college-system

Squad announced.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/126676144/six-uncapped-players-in-football-ferns-squad-to-face-canada-no-abby-erceg

Going to be tough going against the Olympic champion. 
10 x US college players named. (although 2 were at the Olympics). Hopefully a few take there chances and step up.

tough indeed, 2-0 at half time, missed the first goal but the second was a horrible piece of communication between naylor and her defender.

3rd was pretty poor too, defenders left way too much room for the canadian attack to find an easy ball though.

Well beaten by Canada. Guilty of giving away possession far to easily, far to often. Lots of work to do for the new coach. No doubt.
In perspective. A full strength Canada against a makeshift NZ. We had 5 US college players on the pitch at one time. Multiple debuts.  But we need to be much stronger on the ball and more accurate with our passing.
Thought Cleverly was great for us. a rising talent. and Bott was tireless on the right.  

Played some good stuff in patches. Good combinations down the left. Canada were very accurate and they pressed us into errors. Hassett did well in midfield, as did Chance.

Rusty Dunks

coochiee

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/126361028/football-ferns-midfielder-olivia-chance-at-the-double-for-celtic

Our women footballers seem to be playing at a pretty good level club-wise - so why do they play so shark at the international level? 

Genuine question. Is it a lack of depth? Or over-estimation of abilities? Poor coaching? Something else?

There are a couple of things here. We had a period where we were genuinely in the worlds top 20. I think we even got as high on the FIFA rankings as 13th once? 
That period was just before the Woman's game in the more recognised football countries took off.  That growth of football in the more recognised football countries probably started about 6-7 years ago. The big problem has been not that our coaching abilities of girls and women got worse but the sheer battle of far bigger numbers playing overseas and the money thrown at the game. So like any pyramid, our base is not as wide as the other countries now and in turn the quality making it to the top of the Pyramid are of smaller numbers than the other countries. 
We benefited for a long time from the growth of girls football in schools, that advantage has now been overtaken by what we see going on in bigger football countries growth in numbers and money spent.
I dont know what the answer is but right now its a tricky period for us. I think as our older National team players are phased out we might see a difficult period results wise where the newer players lack of experience will appear to slow any progress down. The new players will need some time to add experience to ability. Coaching wise at grass roots Im not sure what more can be done, essentially the quality of coaching for girls is pretty decent and the pressure goes on for some NZ centric innovative way to take it up another level.
I guess its easy for people to criticise based on results etc but context matters and looking for solutions will do more good than pointing fingers because a lot of the difficulty in results is in some ways mostly out of our hands.

theprof

tough indeed, 2-0 at half time, missed the first goal but the second was a horrible piece of communication between naylor and her defender.

I think it's quite clear to all now that Naylor is out of her depth.  She might think she's all that but she's been poor for a long time.  

Hopefully the young ladies that the Nix have signed can take her place and that of many other centurion's who just aren't good enough.

AlfStamp

Rusty Dunks

coochiee

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/126361028/football-ferns-midfielder-olivia-chance-at-the-double-for-celtic

Our women footballers seem to be playing at a pretty good level club-wise - so why do they play so shark at the international level? 

Genuine question. Is it a lack of depth? Or over-estimation of abilities? Poor coaching? Something else?

There are a couple of things here. We had a period where we were genuinely in the worlds top 20. I think we even got as high on the FIFA rankings as 13th once? 
That period was just before the Woman's game in the more recognised football countries took off.  That growth of football in the more recognised football countries probably started about 6-7 years ago. The big problem has been not that our coaching abilities of girls and women got worse but the sheer battle of far bigger numbers playing overseas and the money thrown at the game. So like any pyramid, our base is not as wide as the other countries now and in turn the quality making it to the top of the Pyramid are of smaller numbers than the other countries. 
We benefited for a long time from the growth of girls football in schools, that advantage has now been overtaken by what we see going on in bigger football countries growth in numbers and money spent.
I dont know what the answer is but right now its a tricky period for us. I think as our older National team players are phased out we might see a difficult period results wise where the newer players lack of experience will appear to slow any progress down. The new players will need some time to add experience to ability. Coaching wise at grass roots Im not sure what more can be done, essentially the quality of coaching for girls is pretty decent and the pressure goes on for some NZ centric innovative way to take it up another level.
I guess its easy for people to criticise based on results etc but context matters and looking for solutions will do more good than pointing fingers because a lot of the difficulty in results is in some ways mostly out of our hands.

 
I think for too long the centurion's have dominated the roost at the expense of others who with more exposure might well be better players then them.  

As we have all just witnessed, the player power of that group is now highlighting how inexperienced our second XI is.  I genuinely think NZ have the players to be successful but some of them have not been given their chance to shine.  Hopefully the FeNix sorts that.  🤞

Marto

AlfStamp

Rusty Dunks

coochiee

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/126361028/football-ferns-midfielder-olivia-chance-at-the-double-for-celtic

Our women footballers seem to be playing at a pretty good level club-wise - so why do they play so shark at the international level? 

Genuine question. Is it a lack of depth? Or over-estimation of abilities? Poor coaching? Something else?

There are a couple of things here. We had a period where we were genuinely in the worlds top 20. I think we even got as high on the FIFA rankings as 13th once? 
That period was just before the Woman's game in the more recognised football countries took off.  That growth of football in the more recognised football countries probably started about 6-7 years ago. The big problem has been not that our coaching abilities of girls and women got worse but the sheer battle of far bigger numbers playing overseas and the money thrown at the game. So like any pyramid, our base is not as wide as the other countries now and in turn the quality making it to the top of the Pyramid are of smaller numbers than the other countries. 
We benefited for a long time from the growth of girls football in schools, that advantage has now been overtaken by what we see going on in bigger football countries growth in numbers and money spent.
I dont know what the answer is but right now its a tricky period for us. I think as our older National team players are phased out we might see a difficult period results wise where the newer players lack of experience will appear to slow any progress down. The new players will need some time to add experience to ability. Coaching wise at grass roots Im not sure what more can be done, essentially the quality of coaching for girls is pretty decent and the pressure goes on for some NZ centric innovative way to take it up another level.
I guess its easy for people to criticise based on results etc but context matters and looking for solutions will do more good than pointing fingers because a lot of the difficulty in results is in some ways mostly out of our hands.

 
I think for too long the centurion's have dominated the roost at the expense of others who with more exposure might well be better players then them.  

As we have all just witnessed, the player power of that group is now highlighting how inexperienced our second XI is.  I genuinely think NZ have the players to be successful but some of them have not been given their chance to shine.  Hopefully the FeNix sorts that.  🤞

All the coach changes and then lack of games due to covid hasn't helped. Seramani did the best he could but had no opportunity to bring in youth. Although Satchell and Cleverly both got reasonable game time under him.

AlfStamp

Rusty Dunks

coochiee

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/126361028/football-ferns-midfielder-olivia-chance-at-the-double-for-celtic

Our women footballers seem to be playing at a pretty good level club-wise - so why do they play so shark at the international level? 

Genuine question. Is it a lack of depth? Or over-estimation of abilities? Poor coaching? Something else?

There are a couple of things here. We had a period where we were genuinely in the worlds top 20. I think we even got as high on the FIFA rankings as 13th once? 
That period was just before the Woman's game in the more recognised football countries took off.  That growth of football in the more recognised football countries probably started about 6-7 years ago. The big problem has been not that our coaching abilities of girls and women got worse but the sheer battle of far bigger numbers playing overseas and the money thrown at the game. So like any pyramid, our base is not as wide as the other countries now and in turn the quality making it to the top of the Pyramid are of smaller numbers than the other countries. 
We benefited for a long time from the growth of girls football in schools, that advantage has now been overtaken by what we see going on in bigger football countries growth in numbers and money spent.
I dont know what the answer is but right now its a tricky period for us. I think as our older National team players are phased out we might see a difficult period results wise where the newer players lack of experience will appear to slow any progress down. The new players will need some time to add experience to ability. Coaching wise at grass roots Im not sure what more can be done, essentially the quality of coaching for girls is pretty decent and the pressure goes on for some NZ centric innovative way to take it up another level.
I guess its easy for people to criticise based on results etc but context matters and looking for solutions will do more good than pointing fingers because a lot of the difficulty in results is in some ways mostly out of our hands.

If you look at the talented young group now coming through with the mens U20s/Olywhites/AWs, nearly all of them are either grounded in the Weenix Academy or Ole. The high technical ability of these players is self evident. The technical ability of most of the Ferns is poor, so it's route one football.

So surely getting more girls to take the Weenix/Ole path can only be a good thing. The new Nix Womens team being a huge part of that. Maybe it's time to consign the FFDP to the bin, and make greater Wgtn the hub for NZ women's football, not Auckland??

Sounds positive,glad leat got a chance.

coochiee

AlfStamp

Rusty Dunks

coochiee

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/126361028/football-ferns-midfielder-olivia-chance-at-the-double-for-celtic

Our women footballers seem to be playing at a pretty good level club-wise - so why do they play so shark at the international level? 

Genuine question. Is it a lack of depth? Or over-estimation of abilities? Poor coaching? Something else?

There are a couple of things here. We had a period where we were genuinely in the worlds top 20. I think we even got as high on the FIFA rankings as 13th once? 
That period was just before the Woman's game in the more recognised football countries took off.  That growth of football in the more recognised football countries probably started about 6-7 years ago. The big problem has been not that our coaching abilities of girls and women got worse but the sheer battle of far bigger numbers playing overseas and the money thrown at the game. So like any pyramid, our base is not as wide as the other countries now and in turn the quality making it to the top of the Pyramid are of smaller numbers than the other countries. 
We benefited for a long time from the growth of girls football in schools, that advantage has now been overtaken by what we see going on in bigger football countries growth in numbers and money spent.
I dont know what the answer is but right now its a tricky period for us. I think as our older National team players are phased out we might see a difficult period results wise where the newer players lack of experience will appear to slow any progress down. The new players will need some time to add experience to ability. Coaching wise at grass roots Im not sure what more can be done, essentially the quality of coaching for girls is pretty decent and the pressure goes on for some NZ centric innovative way to take it up another level.
I guess its easy for people to criticise based on results etc but context matters and looking for solutions will do more good than pointing fingers because a lot of the difficulty in results is in some ways mostly out of our hands.

If you look at the talented young group now coming through with the mens U20s/Olywhites/AWs, nearly all of them are either grounded in the Weenix Academy or Ole. The high technical ability of these players is self evident. The technical ability of most of the Ferns is poor, so it's route one football.

So surely getting more girls to take the Weenix/Ole path can only be a good thing. The new Nix Womens team being a huge part of that. Maybe it's time to consign the FFDP to the bin, and make greater Wgtn the hub for NZ women's football, not Auckland??

We are supposed to be broadening the base not making it more narrow... You 100% need to keep the FFDP in the most populous city in New Zealand...

interesting to see where to from here for the top end/development level programs

coochiee

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/126866498/football-fern-puts-hand-up-for-future-selection-after-seizing-her-opportunity

I was lucky enough to have Jacqui in one of my teams a few years ago. (BTW just want to make the point I had little to do with her development, she had a bunch of great coaches do great work with her before and after me.)
She was incredibly focussed and worked really hard. She really hated losing. Also a really lovely person. So glad to see her doing so well in the US, her brother went to the US as well. Hopefully more chances coming for some of the other younger players.

Welp we currently have the luxury of what seems to be two very competent coaches at the helm of both national sides. The one thing they are both crying our for is games and it's fantastic that NZF are delivering despite the current covid difficulties. The Phoenix are about to have a season where we are gonna see a lot of academy talent get a breakout display, the men's side have a challenging world cup qualifying campaign ahead of them next year and then we have the privilege of hosting the women's world cup not long after that. I for one can't contain my excitement for what the next couple of years have in store for New Zealand football. It's small and there's still a lot of road to be traveled but there's an unmistakable energy. It really feels like something big is about to happen!

Be great if we could get a few of the ALW girls released to play the first game against  South Korea. Similar time zone and not that far from Aus.
and then play the rest for the 2nd game which is pretty close to ALW start date.

Ranix

Be great if we could get a few of the ALW girls released to play the first game against  South Korea. Similar time zone and not that far from Aus.
and then play the rest for the 2nd game which is pretty close to ALW start date.

Non Australian citizens I understand still need to quarantine when flying into NSW from overseas? 

Is why only Sail (is an Australian citizen) of the Nix crew was considered by Hay for the Nov AWs games.

Something like that I understand. 

Plus not really fair on Gemma Lewis, given already limited buildup and only 18 players, to take out a couple so close to season kick off.

The AWs are in a rush to prepare for June 2022. The Ferns have more time, with their next big assignment (home WWC) not until mid 2023. 

Thanks for the clarification. 
Wasn't actually thinking any of the Nix players. More like Wilkinson, Satchell and Bunge would have been handy additions to the squad.
But not to be by the sounds of it. Just wishful thinking be me.

Ranix

Thanks for the clarification. 
Wasn't actually thinking any of the Nix players. More like Wilkinson, Satchell and Bunge would have been handy additions to the squad.
But not to be by the sounds of it. Just wishful thinking be me.

Stott (Melb City) could be a contender. Think is a dual NZ/Aus citizen, and would be a handy experienced addition to the Ferns, esp if Erceg is again unavailable. But VIC may still require all overseas arrivals to do MIQ, Aus citizen or not.

No quarantine now required for vaccinated returnees into VIC & NSW.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/126978271/aleague-women-players-back-in-the-frame-for-football-ferns-games