A-league Expansion - Derbies

Some interesting comments by Pragnell. And nice to hear NZF want to see a 2nd NZ AL (men & women) team. Got a much better chance of success if NZF are backing it, and if it does happen (2026 seems ambitious) then yes football in NZ really will be in rude health. The WWC next year, should see some more commercial sponsorship interest in NZ football occur. More again if the AWs did make it to Qatar.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/128902077/world-cup-windfall-would-help-nz-football-plot-an-ambitious-course-but-it-isnt-win-or-bust

The most ambitious item on Pragnell's wish list might take a little while longer. He says he wants there to be a professional Auckland-based club playing alongside the Phoenix in Australia's men's and women A-Leagues by the time the next men's World Cup rolls around: "Auckland expansion has to happen. I'd like to see that in place by 2026”.

Professional football returning to New Zealand’s largest city – a market A-Leagues bosses want to tap into – would be as sure a sign as any that football is in a resoundingly healthy place. It would lead to a sustained increased in visibility for the game and while the failures of the Football Kingz and the New Zealand Knights earlier this century still sting, that the head of governing body has signalled it will get behind a fresh bid is a significant milestone.

Right now it stands as the height of NZ Football’s ambition under Pragnell, who initially didn’t want the job full-time. If an Auckland professional team comes to fruition, it will be a watershed moment, but the fact that it’s even being talked about says plenty.

What's the plan in terms of potential new additions? I guess everything was mothballed due to covid? 

newzealandpower

What's the plan in terms of potential new additions? I guess everything was mothballed due to covid? 

There's expected to be movement this off-season in terms of pathing the way/firing the starting gun in the search for four new entries to take both ALM and ALW to 16 teams, a long-stated goal (30-game H&A seasons).

Canberra getting a ALM team (and CCM and Macrthur ALW teams) would make it 13 clubs. A second Queensland team seems an obvious target. That would leave two slots to be filled.

andrewvoerman

newzealandpower

What's the plan in terms of potential new additions? I guess everything was mothballed due to covid? 

There's expected to be movement this off-season in terms of pathing the way/firing the starting gun in the search for four new entries to take both ALM and ALW to 16 teams, a long-stated goal (30-game H&A seasons).

Canberra getting a ALM team (and CCM and Macrthur ALW teams) would make it 13 clubs. A second Queensland team seems an obvious target. That would leave two slots to be filled.

If, and it’s a big if, Auckland gets an A League side it’d be massive for the national team and the game here. At the moment you have a surplus of players coming through with a very finite number of places at the Phoenix, so many players just get missed out. When you add in 5 visas, 6 or so Australian players, you’re left with maybe 10/11 spots in a squad for New Zealand players. Not to mention that the biggest city that produces the most footballers doesn’t really have a pathway, so it becomes either pay to move to Wellington or pay to trial overseas. Plus you’d get a decent rivalry, because the Phoenix really lack one, the Western one is pretty contrived, let alone the Perth ‘distance derby’, so there could be genuine entertainment from that given that everyone not from Auckland wants to beat Auckland.

Add in an Auckland team, and those numbers should at least double, if not more, and suddenly you open up a whole new market of players to sign. Just in the last couple seasons you’ve had Sail, Marinovic, Singh, Sutton, Paulsen, Old, TAHW, McCowatt, Payne, Mogg and (maybe pushing it, been in AKL for several years but grew up in Wellington) Lewis from Auckland. There must be more from where that came from, like how many kids like Alex Greive have there been that just didn’t get the shot he was given by a Scottish team? The more players playing professionally that can’t get into the national team is a sign of depth and strength.

The downside you could argue though is that it’d weaken the Phoenix. You’d imagine the theoretical Auckland team would roughly have a sphere of influence similar to that of the Northern League region, so adding in Waibop. Without those regions, the Phoenix would have to rely on a much smaller market to scout local players from, and go from the only fish in the bowl to the smaller fish. Could also raise the prices of NZ players, as they currently have no alternative other than ‘amateur’ National League, so the Phoenix hold all negotiating power, whereas they would have to compete with Auckland for the best talent which would slightly shift the balance of power.

The other main issue is where does pro/rel come in. FFA seem to be pretty keen to do it at some point, and a fully connected structure wouldn’t work with an Auckland team (or any NZ team really). What would happen if they got relegated, would they play in NPL? Surely not, so it raises a massive issue with that, because pro/rel and NZ teams in Australian leagues can’t really coexist, and if the Australians are desperate to bring it in, then I’m sure the NZ teams wouldn’t be on firm ground. Pro/rel might just be a pipe dream though, which might mean an Auckland team could happen and it’d be cool to see, but I wouldn’t bet a lot on it happening.

I think the only way to do pro/rel would be a two franchise league. I can’t see the current national clubs league having franchises relegated to it or clubs promoted from it. 

Unless the franchises were guaranteed their places and only clubs could go up or down…but then that’s getting weird and has a two class ownership model which is surely awkward and undesirable. MLS don’t do it right? Is there any comparable model which does pro/rel? 

carlind

andrewvoerman

newzealandpower

What's the plan in terms of potential new additions? I guess everything was mothballed due to covid? 

There's expected to be movement this off-season in terms of pathing the way/firing the starting gun in the search for four new entries to take both ALM and ALW to 16 teams, a long-stated goal (30-game H&A seasons).

Canberra getting a ALM team (and CCM and Macrthur ALW teams) would make it 13 clubs. A second Queensland team seems an obvious target. That would leave two slots to be filled.

If, and it’s a big if, Auckland gets an A League side it’d be massive for the national team and the game here. At the moment you have a surplus of players coming through with a very finite number of places at the Phoenix, so many players just get missed out. When you add in 5 visas, 6 or so Australian players, you’re left with maybe 10/11 spots in a squad for New Zealand players. Not to mention that the biggest city that produces the most footballers doesn’t really have a pathway, so it becomes either pay to move to Wellington or pay to trial overseas. Plus you’d get a decent rivalry, because the Phoenix really lack one, the Western one is pretty contrived, let alone the Perth ‘distance derby’, so there could be genuine entertainment from that given that everyone not from Auckland wants to beat Auckland.

Add in an Auckland team, and those numbers should at least double, if not more, and suddenly you open up a whole new market of players to sign. Just in the last couple seasons you’ve had Sail, Marinovic, Singh, Sutton, Paulsen, Old, TAHW, McCowatt, Payne, Mogg and (maybe pushing it, been in AKL for several years but grew up in Wellington) Lewis from Auckland. There must be more from where that came from, like how many kids like Alex Greive have there been that just didn’t get the shot he was given by a Scottish team? The more players playing professionally that can’t get into the national team is a sign of depth and strength.

The downside you could argue though is that it’d weaken the Phoenix. You’d imagine the theoretical Auckland team would roughly have a sphere of influence similar to that of the Northern League region, so adding in Waibop. Without those regions, the Phoenix would have to rely on a much smaller market to scout local players from, and go from the only fish in the bowl to the smaller fish. Could also raise the prices of NZ players, as they currently have no alternative other than ‘amateur’ National League, so the Phoenix hold all negotiating power, whereas they would have to compete with Auckland for the best talent which would slightly shift the balance of power.

The other main issue is where does pro/rel come in. FFA seem to be pretty keen to do it at some point, and a fully connected structure wouldn’t work with an Auckland team (or any NZ team really). What would happen if they got relegated, would they play in NPL? Surely not, so it raises a massive issue with that, because pro/rel and NZ teams in Australian leagues can’t really coexist, and if the Australians are desperate to bring it in, then I’m sure the NZ teams wouldn’t be on firm ground. Pro/rel might just be a pipe dream though, which might mean an Auckland team could happen and it’d be cool to see, but I wouldn’t bet a lot on it happening.

You'd probably get the odd guy like maybe Howieson who'd play for an Auckland ALM team, but not the Nix because his life is in Auckland. There has probably been the other odd Auckland domestic player turn down a Nix trial/contract. Vicelich was another in the early Nix days. Riera may have stayed longer in the A League, if he played for a side in the City of Sails.

Likely a few Kiwis overseas (some of the USL crew?) who would consider a return to NZ to play for an Akld team, but not the Nix. That's not dishing Welly, it is just like anyone in the job market. Some cities you would consider moving to, and others no, for a myriad of different reasons.

What would really help the Nix or a new Akld team is a relationship with Ole. There is talent pool in Porirua that just all seem set, on moving overseas if they are half decent. I can only think of McCowatt (1 season at that) from there who's signed for the Nix. Why is that?

But at the end of the day 2 NZ ALM teams in a country of 5M, is very equivalent player pool wise, to 14 Australian teams (if AL did expand to 16 clubs) in a country of 26M.

Rough maths but NZ should have enough talent to support 2 AL clubs, again would help if you could tap into some of those Ole alumini

RR

Or should I say preferred options.

— Ray Gatt (@Gatty54) December 12, 2022

Canberra - Yeah maybe. 
Auckland - Pass

Maybe I'm still bitter and deflated from today's announcements. Let me sleep on this one...

If a well run Auckland club can establish itself with a strong team and create a passionate fan base the derby would be mouth watering. I think a lot of non aleague watching NZers would tune in for that game alone.

Nommag

If a well run Auckland club can establish itself with a strong team and create a passionate fan base the derby would be mouth watering. I think a lot of non aleague watching NZers would tune in for that game alone.

An Auckland club would be great for the Nix and NZ Football as whole. A real proper derby with travelling fans at last!

Pragnell has said he wants it done before the 2026 WC, ie NZF are throwing their support behind it big time. Who knows if the AWs had made Qatar, some of that $US10M FIFA windfill (rightly or wrongly) could have been diverted to setting up an Auckland team

RR

WE’RE BACK!

Pleased to announce that with @aleaguemen expansion back on the cards, we have re-opened discussions with the ALP Group to make Canberra home to Australia’s next professional football club.

A true community team for the people of the region.https://t.co/uUh1R8WS2y

— Canberra Region ALeague (@CBRRegionHAL) December 23, 2022

Should have got a licence ahead of MacArthur last time.

From memory Canberra's bid was going with a part fan owned club setup or similar, and several thousand folks had signed up.

Them & an Auckland club as new teams seems to make the most sense.

There was an article (https://www.news.com.au/sport/football/tasmania-gets-another-chance-to-impress-in-the-battle-to-secure-an-aleague-team/news-story/65aa7ff2d4e558bf7a274f34e1a7e136) about how the league wants to expand to 16 teams over the next four years. Apparently, the next two teams are Canberra and Auckland. I'd like to know how credible this. Surely if within the next 1-2 years Auckland was going to be announced we would be hearing about it through the media or anecdotally at like a rumour mill level through Auckland clubs.

Has anyone heard anything about this other than speculation?

Also, an Auckland team would be great but as a resident of Hamilton would make it very difficult to decide which is my main team. On one hand I have the nix loyalty, on the other Auckland home games are an hour away.

Nommag

There was an article (https://www.news.com.au/sport/football/tasmania-gets-another-chance-to-impress-in-the-battle-to-secure-an-aleague-team/news-story/65aa7ff2d4e558bf7a274f34e1a7e136) about how the league wants to expand to 16 teams over the next four years. Apparently, the next two teams are Canberra and Auckland. I'd like to know how credible this. Surely if within the next 1-2 years Auckland was going to be announced we would be hearing about it through the media or anecdotally at like a rumour mill level through Auckland clubs.

Has anyone heard anything about this other than speculation?

Also, an Auckland team would be great but as a resident of Hamilton would make it very difficult to decide which is my main team. On one hand I have the nix loyalty, on the other Auckland home games are an hour away.

An Auckland team would be great for the game here. giving kids here, two chances at carving out a career starting move. Also, 'Derby" games would be warmly attended by both sets of fans. Not sure if many would travel down to Wellies but there are heaps from here that travel to the games in Auckland. Add a touch of competitiveness to the competition. bring it on, I say!!

Nommag

There was an article (https://www.news.com.au/sport/football/tasmania-gets-another-chance-to-impress-in-the-battle-to-secure-an-aleague-team/news-story/65aa7ff2d4e558bf7a274f34e1a7e136) about how the league wants to expand to 16 teams over the next four years. Apparently, the next two teams are Canberra and Auckland. I'd like to know how credible this. Surely if within the next 1-2 years Auckland was going to be announced we would be hearing about it through the media or anecdotally at like a rumour mill level through Auckland clubs.

Has anyone heard anything about this other than speculation?

Also, an Auckland team would be great but as a resident of Hamilton would make it very difficult to decide which is my main team. On one hand I have the nix loyalty, on the other Auckland home games are an hour away.

Had read that too, but doesn't make sense to me yet based solely on the fact that the movement for the NSD seems to be gaining traction. 

I know we're not talking about the brightest sparks running the show currently, but to my end, if the NSD gets off the ground in the next few years, then surely you promote organically from clubs that are established in that division do you not? After a couple of seasons you're up to 16 teams in the A-League, and then those couple of years provide the buffer before promotion/relegation.

That'd be the dream anyway... 

It could be years before there is pro/rel between any NSD & the ALM.

Looks like that Canberra consortium want to go straight into the ALM. Pragnell has said he wants an Auckland ALM side before WC 2026. But yes there has been no rumours at all of any Auckland group looking to make a bid. And surely without some deep pocketed, football tragic(s) there will be no bid.

Wasn't the OFC also looking to set up a professional league (2025 season) before the next WC too? 

You'd think a team from Auckland would be a lock for that. So I'm not exactly sure where this would leave a respective A-League bid. As big a city as it is, somehow I don't think Auckland could support two professional football teams - although perhaps this is just the pessimist in me.

YoungHeartHM

Wasn't the OFC also looking to set up a professional league (2025 season) before the next WC too? 

You'd think a team from Auckland would be a lock for that. So I'm not exactly sure where this would leave a respective A-League bid. As big a city as it is, somehow I don't think Auckland could support two professional football teams - although perhaps this is just the pessimist in me.

Yes a new OFC pro league is mooted for 2005. I imagine legally OFC would have to invite NZ clubs to enter, ie not keep as just a closed Island team shop.

Be interesting to see if OFC then canned the OFC Champions League, and just gave OFC's CWC spot to the winner of the new pro league. I'm sure the likes of Auckland City and Olympic will be watching closely. With yes some ramifications re any Auckland ALM bid - though previously Auckland City have ruled themselves out, of being directly part of any Auckland bid. The Trillian Trust has financial limits!

Auckland v Nandi or Auckland v Sydney City, Which would be a bigger test?

I did see speculation that the a-league wants an Auckland side because it will make pro/rel slower and harder to implement which ultimate benefits the existing a-league clubs.

YoungHeartHM

Nommag

There was an article (https://www.news.com.au/sport/football/tasmania-gets-another-chance-to-impress-in-the-battle-to-secure-an-aleague-team/news-story/65aa7ff2d4e558bf7a274f34e1a7e136) about how the league wants to expand to 16 teams over the next four years. Apparently, the next two teams are Canberra and Auckland. I'd like to know how credible this. Surely if within the next 1-2 years Auckland was going to be announced we would be hearing about it through the media or anecdotally at like a rumour mill level through Auckland clubs.

Has anyone heard anything about this other than speculation?

Also, an Auckland team would be great but as a resident of Hamilton would make it very difficult to decide which is my main team. On one hand I have the nix loyalty, on the other Auckland home games are an hour away.

Had read that too, but doesn't make sense to me yet based solely on the fact that the movement for the NSD seems to be gaining traction. 

I know we're not talking about the brightest sparks running the show currently, but to my end, if the NSD gets off the ground in the next few years, then surely you promote organically from clubs that are established in that division do you not? After a couple of seasons you're up to 16 teams in the A-League, and then those couple of years provide the buffer before promotion/relegation.

That'd be the dream anyway... 

Rumour: Canberra and Auckland to be added to league by  2024-25
Posting reddit link because article behind paywall 
https://www.reddit.com/r/Aleague/comments/11r6p6r/its_on_canberra_and_auckland_in_the_aleague_by/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

As long as whatever the Auckland team ends up being isn’t based at North Harbour Stadium, I’m all for it 

Nommag

Rumour: Canberra and Auckland to be added to league by  2024-25
Posting reddit link because article behind paywall https://www.reddit.com/r/Aleague/comments/11r6p6r/its_on_canberra_and_auckland_in_the_aleague_by/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

stuff article here
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/a-league/131498777/aleague-to-confirm-mens-expansion-teams-in-auckland-and-canberra
gives us some genuine derby matches - obviously the NZ Derby but also the Capital City Derby too, can forget the long distance derby ever existed.

Great news if it comes to pass. Just the small problem of the would be Auckland team paying the $25M expansion fee!! Watch this space for who the owners will be. Some Govt and NZF cash as well??

Handy cashflow for the APL to keep the ALM alive. Not sure that business model can last forever 

Big news! A derby would be amazing!

I am however somewhat doubtful re the support an Auckland team would get. Yes, over 10k show up for Nix games at Eden Park but there are so many questions... and concerns:

- I thought the crowd was low considering the team is playing well
- Most Aucklanders who follow ALM are already Nix fans. Would they even adopt their own team?
- The league can't afford another Western United. And I somehow can't see bigger crowds than 5k. But hope I'm wrong 

Maybe it would be a good idea to somehow work with the Warriors as is the case with other clubs overseas? Fir example a lot of European football clubs have also got basketball clubs under the same name.

Anyway, exciting news for sure. I still think the thing the AL needs the MOST, is small/rectangular stadiums. Imo it's the empty seats, lack of atmosphere that plagues the league the most. Adding more teams might be trying to run before you can walk

Working with the Warriors in Auckland is a great idea, share the training faacilities, even the home ground, at least its rectangular and smaller than Eden Park.

ESPN source: https://www.espn.com.au/football/australian-a-league-men/story/4900314/a-league-targeting-canberra-auckland-for-expansion-in-2024

If it is the "Auckland FC" / Vuksich crew, then does this mean ACFC ascending to a higher plane of existence? If so, good riddance to the Trillian rort, but I wonder where they think their support base is coming from. Unless someone's heard something about other clubs in the 09 being behind this?

Fair play to Auckland if they end up getting a team, fun for us to have a rival, and it's a good thing for NZ football holistically. But honestly as a Nix fan, the biggest thing is not having to have two home games every year in front of a black hole of atmosphere and passion. Maybe if they get their own team they'll liven up a bit but god it's a kick in the nuts every time I have to watch the nix play in Auckland in view of the world's worst crowd

Sooo keen for an Auckland team. Just more opportunities to grow football in this country. Mt Smart, while a fairly average stadium, is a smarter option than the north shore. Bring it on!! 

Good luck to whoever it is who's taking the chance on this one. I still remain apprehensive, but if it means football is growing and players/coaches are developing in a professional environment in this country - Be it the Nix, or this Auckland entity, then I'm all for it.

Third times a charm!

Being from Chch, if we ever got an A-League Team (2030?), then I'd 100% back a team I can watch at home every second week, rather than the nix who I only see once a year at a push.

InsulinMachine

Big news! A derby would be amazing!

I am however somewhat doubtful re the support an Auckland team would get. Yes, over 10k show up for Nix games at Eden Park but there are so many questions... and concerns:

- I thought the crowd was low considering the team is playing well
- Most Aucklanders who follow ALM are already Nix fans. Would they even adopt their own team?
- The league can't afford another Western United. And I somehow can't see bigger crowds than 5k. But hope I'm wrong 

Maybe it would be a good idea to somehow work with the Warriors as is the case with other clubs overseas? Fir example a lot of European football clubs have also got basketball clubs under the same name.

Anyway, exciting news for sure. I still think the thing the AL needs the MOST, is small/rectangular stadiums. Imo it's the empty seats, lack of atmosphere that plagues the league the most. Adding more teams might be trying to run before you can walk

I imagine the first game for this Auckland team would be in Auckland vs the Nix, would make a wicked fun away weekend to start the season!

If the Breakers manage to grab the NBL finals tonight and a concrete announcement and Auckland expansion team gets made would this be the greatest day in NZ sports teams piggybacking in Aussie leagues history?

10K at the last Eden Park game was the lowest turn out for a while, maybe an indication of poor marketing, to maybe people thinking these games are no longer special as we get them every year... who knows.

But the A League and NZF really do need this. The marketing alone on 1 and 3 news would be worth it prior to derbies. They might actually interview players in prep for games etc.

Would definately support an Auckland team as a Hamiltonian, because I love the game. Would probably look to come a season holder too, I just don't know what shirt I'd wear at the derbies.

Jazzy Jeff

Fair play to Auckland if they end up getting a team, fun for us to have a rival, and it's a good thing for NZ football holistically. But honestly as a Nix fan, the biggest thing is not having to have two home games every year in front of a black hole of atmosphere and passion. Maybe if they get their own team they'll liven up a bit but god it's a kick in the nuts every time I have to watch the nix play in Auckland in view of the world's worst crowd

lol hyperbole much 

YouCanCallMeAl

Jazzy Jeff

Fair play to Auckland if they end up getting a team, fun for us to have a rival, and it's a good thing for NZ football holistically. But honestly as a Nix fan, the biggest thing is not having to have two home games every year in front of a black hole of atmosphere and passion. Maybe if they get their own team they'll liven up a bit but god it's a kick in the nuts every time I have to watch the nix play in Auckland in view of the world's worst crowd

lol hyperbole much 

Yes, I was being hyperbolic but I've been up to watch the Nix and the All Whites last year and both were hands down the worst football experiences I've ever had. I'm genuinely hoping an Auckland team gets a good following though, don't get me wrong. There's lots on here who are passionate footy fans from Akl and I hope they can form a proper fan group to help the atmosphere. Maybe at Mt Smart it would be better too, Eden Park is just too massive

Assume it would have to be shorts off at 80 minutes? 

Will the A-League stop forcing Kiwi players to be considered as imports for the Australian teams? Might be time to consider all Australasian players as locals, here and in Oz. Not sure if that would be a good thing or not. 

Jazzy Jeff

YouCanCallMeAl

Jazzy Jeff

Fair play to Auckland if they end up getting a team, fun for us to have a rival, and it's a good thing for NZ football holistically. But honestly as a Nix fan, the biggest thing is not having to have two home games every year in front of a black hole of atmosphere and passion. Maybe if they get their own team they'll liven up a bit but god it's a kick in the nuts every time I have to watch the nix play in Auckland in view of the world's worst crowd

lol hyperbole much 

Yes, I was being hyperbolic but I've been up to watch the Nix and the All Whites last year and both were hands down the worst football experiences I've ever had. I'm genuinely hoping an Auckland team gets a good following though, don't get me wrong. There's lots on here who are passionate footy fans from Akl and I hope they can form a proper fan group to help the atmosphere. Maybe at Mt Smart it would be better too, Eden Park is just too massive

Hit the nail on the head - "bad football experience" is what many ALM games are. There are tons of football fans in Australia and NZ but won't follow the AL. Only the die hards stick with it and they are few and far between sadly.

While expansion is great, they really need to improve the game day experience

Breaking news: Trillian Trust gives ACFC a $25 million grant for "distributing T-shirts to needy kids"