All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

FIFA rankings are a joke

25 replies · 5,017 views
over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
FIFA rankings are a joke
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yeah that sux but we have not played a competitive match since the abysmal 04 world cup qualifiers. And becuase the world cup qualifiers and Ocian Nations Cup are now one, we play less competitive games then the island nations who have the South Pacific games every year or two.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
So, do friendlies count towards rankings or only competitive games?
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Friendlies count but ranking points are less. Full details of how it works are on the fifa web site.

A dog with a bone :)

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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Argentina beats Brazil in their section
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The key to NZ's drop in the rankings is the section "latest points scored". The NZ entry contains nothing more than the text "no matches played". You can't score points if you don't play matches.
The remainder of the zone have just been winning games in the SPG.
 
The early exit in the 2006 qualifiers mean NZ have not played a competitive match for three years. There have only been friendlies since then, which don't count as highly as real games.
 
The FIFA ranking takes into account games in the previous 4 years only. Explanation here:
 
 
 
For what it's worth, the rival ELO system has NZ 2nd to Australia in Oceania (they haven't moved the Aussies yet for some reason).
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What does ELO stand for? and, in the world, where do the All Whites rank on that?
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
yes...but the ranking fifa isn't really true...they count only the games played,and not the really potential of the team,looke it,there are fiji and seychelles over us.
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

The rankings only matter to the extent they affect our ability to get decent international friendly matches.  As to who ranks above us in Oceania - so what.  The overall FIFA rankings are always a good joke, Spain are often ranked quite well and never win anything....

Selhurst Park, 25 January 1995
What else could he have done?
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Spain are often ranked quite well and never win anything....


Are you England in disguise, are you England in disguise...
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I mean in the last year we beat Georgia (104) (who went on to draw with Ukraine (17th in world)), Beat  Turkey (21) and Uruguay (19)).
Drew with Wales (53) who went on to beat Bulgaria, Slovakia and San Marino. Draw with the Czechs.
Drew with Estonia (127) who went on to beat Andorra and Belarus.

Fiji beat no-one significant and lost to New Caledonia to earn their 119 ranking.
Bullsh*t rankings. Bullsh*t system
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yeah, rankings are a joke, but how do you propose to do them to make them more fair? It would be quite a task.
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Every ranking system has its flaws. Even the Americans, the undisputed kings of sporting statistics, cannot come up with a ranking system which everyone agrees on for college football. 
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

However, it's fair to conclude that the FIFA rankings are the biggest (and least humorous) joke of all. I mean, 6th in Oceania?loyalgunner2007-10-16 17:27:14
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What does ELO stand for? and, in the world, where do the All Whites rank on that?
 

The World Football Elo Ratings are based on the Elo rating system, developed by Dr. Arpad Elo. This system is used by FIDE, the international chess federation, to rate chess players. In 1997 Bob Runyan adapted the Elo rating system to international football and posted the results on the Internet. He was also the first maintainer of the World Football Elo Ratings web site. The system was adapted to football by adding a weighting for the kind of match, an adjustment for the home team advantage, and an adjustment for goal difference in the match result.

These ratings take into account all international "A" matches for which results could be found. Ratings tend to converge on a team's true strength relative to its competitors after about 30 matches. Ratings for teams with fewer than 30 matches should be considered provisional.

NZ are ranked 74th in the world in that system and are top in Oceania.

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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The big thing for NZ is that when FIFA recently upgraded the formula, they reduced the timescale of results.
 
The formula is reasonably sound with regard to its principles:
- All international "A" matches count
- Matches are rated according to importance scaled like 1 (friendly match) to 4 (World Cup)
- Opponent strength is taken in to account - Formula: [200 - Position] / 100
- The regional strength is taken in to account - with the region's strength being graded by using results of that region's teams in the last three world cups
- More recent results are weighted as more important - gradual decline in importance of results: 100%- 50% - 30% - 20%
- All matches within a year are considered
 
Previously, there was an 8 year period with complext calculations that picked the best 7 results in a year to use, with away teams given a bonus.
 
This is all fair enough and much of the criticism directed at FIFA comes from ignorance of how it is done - and ignorance of the revisions applied to the methodology in mid-2006.
 
The biggest single problem is where teams don't play many games. FIFA's formula encounters problems where teams play less than 5 games a year. There is no way to factor in potential without using subjective measures - and everyone's opinion differs!
 
Personally, I think the rankings work well for what they are intended for - an indication of comparative strength. FIFA do not solely use the rankings for any purpose. Recent World Cup seedings use a component of the rankings with the more important recent world cup appearances factored in.
 
I track the seeding calculations for the World Cup (sad, me) and was surprised to find that the rankings component altered what would have been the 8 seeds by only two teams. And this might surprise some people, but the rankings component allowed France and Argentina to be seeded instead of Korea and the USA. 2006 used the prior 2 world cups, whereas the 2002 used the prior 3. Using the prior 3 instead, and losing the rankings component would have allowed Argentina in as 8th seed instead of USA (who would slip to 9th).
 
In other words it was the rankings being partially factored in to the seedings that caused the seedings to seem more accurate to most people!
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Thanks for that info SiNZ.

74th in the world sounds a lot more like the All Whites than 150 whatever ridiculously high number it is now.
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What does ELO stand for? and, in the world, where do the All Whites rank on that?
 
Electric Light Orchestra.
 
They rank the AW's between India and Latvia, but they know nothing about football, as they are a band
 

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Thanks for that info SiNZ.

74th in the world sounds a lot more like the All Whites than 150 whatever ridiculously high number it is now.
 
The ELO rating formula is really quite complex. Part of the problem with it however is that it tends to keep teams around the same sort of ranking. Developed for measuring chess, it used the basis that your value changes slowly over time. It uses all results ever. That is hard to defend. FIFA reduced their period of selection to just 4 years due to the justifiable criticism that after 8 years a nation tends to have quite a different team. ELO, because it is chess-originated and measuring  an individual, uses like I said the all-time list of results. It's kind of hard to justify the relevance of including the 1872 0-0 draw between England and Scotland (the first ever international) in calculating either team's 2007 ranking.
 
Interestingly it retains other elements that the FIFA ranking has abandoned due to the distorting effect i.e. home/away and goal difference, plus it weights friendlies as more important than FIFA (ratio of 1:3 instead of 1:3). Beyond that, it requires careful study.... more effort than even I'm willing to give.
 
Overall, I find the ELO system interesting but I think the FIFA system is the best I've seen - if a team isn't playing many games though, it will fall in the ratings (a la NZ) whereas the ELO system makes it harder to change position.
 
 
 
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oh and I should be writing it as Elo not ELO. It is named after Arpad Elo, the physics professor who devised it.
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Xcellent wrote:
I mean in the last year we beat Georgia (104) (who went on to draw with Ukraine (17th in world)), Beat� Turkey (21) and Uruguay (19)).Drew with Wales (53) who went on to beat Bulgaria, Slovakia and San Marino. Draw with the Czechs.Drew with Estonia (127) who went on to beat Andorra and Belarus.Fiji beat no-one significant and lost to New Caledonia to earn their 119 ranking.Bullsh*t rankings. Bullsh*t system


Yet all those teams (Wales, Georgia, Estonia) are whipping boys in their respective groups for EURO qualifying. So FIFA rankings maybe aren't as inaccurate as some people would have you believe.
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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

The rankings only matter to the extent they affect our ability to get decent international friendly matches.  As to who ranks above us in Oceania - so what.  The overall FIFA rankings are always a good joke, Spain are often ranked quite well and never win anything....

 
They are also key for Kiwis (and Aussies etc) in getting playing contracts in Europe when you don't have access to an EU passport.  If NZ's ranking was in top 50 it would be far easier for plays such as Hikey to play in the EU (he repeatedly had his work permits turned down after being offered contracts at clubs like Hull due to not having an EU passport and NZ's bad FIFA ranking).
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Xcellent wrote:
I mean in the last year we beat Georgia (104) (who went on to draw with Ukraine (17th in world)), Beat  Turkey (21) and Uruguay (19)).Drew with Wales (53) who went on to beat Bulgaria, Slovakia and San Marino. Draw with the Czechs.Drew with Estonia (127) who went on to beat Andorra and Belarus.Fiji beat no-one significant and lost to New Caledonia to earn their 119 ranking.Bullsh*t rankings. Bullsh*t system


Yet all those teams (Wales, Georgia, Estonia) are whipping boys in their respective groups for EURO qualifying. So FIFA rankings maybe aren't as inaccurate as some people would have you believe.
 
Back to what I said earlier.  Regular competitive matches and not dickings at the hands of Brazil, Costa Rica etc.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Besides. The All whites are only going to be ranked 6th in Oceania until about December. If we win all our games we should be closer to the 115th mark. If we don't win all our games then maybe 130-135 is a fair place for us.

If we build it, they will come...

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over 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Besides. The All whites are only going to be ranked 6th in Oceania until about December. If we win all our games we should be closer to the 115th mark. If we don't win all our games then maybe 130-135 is a fair place for us.
but Fiji or New Caledonia may win matches in Nov, they may reach top 100 in rankings
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