All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

Winston Reid and AW friendlies

73 replies · 6,004 views
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oceanic Expert wrote:
Frankie Mac wrote:
Building the bond with the kids of the country is all about the give and the take with the star players - the compromise of not making them fly back for meaningless games in NZ in October, is that they come down for 1 week at the end of the season and play a game or two then.  We could work with the Aussie federation and see if we can make the trans-tasman game a yearly fixture, or I am sure we could get something else organised.  During that week, they see their family, do lots of promotional work, play a couple more games, then they get their summer off for the holiday.  They are not forced into coming, but I am sure that they will be a lot more agreeable to the idea due to the fact they know the NZFA are working with them.  Kids will also look up to kiwi players they see playing week in, week out in the premier league.


Won't happen, they'ge got that Cup in January and their calender seems pretty busy these days.
 
I was talking about late May, early June. 
 
If not Aussie, I am sure that there are other countries who we could play against.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
martinb wrote:
Frankie Mac wrote:
why do we want the All Whites to have more games?  For me, the reasons in order of importance are:
 
* To become a better team
* To give young New Zealander's something to look up to
* Entertaining middle aged men who should know better
 
Personally, I think the way to satisfy all of these reasons (except the one about the middle aged men) is to bend over backwards to satisfy your stars - Nelsen, Reid, Fallon and Jones (with a little bit of luck).  If they don't want to fly to NZ, play games elsewhere where it does not inconvenience the other players (such as Europe) but is accessible for everyone, such as Asia or the States.  There is plenty of decent teams for us to play in these areas, so getting the top class fixtures we all crave will not be a problem.    That solves reason 1.
 
Building the bond with the kids of the country is all about the give and the take with the star players - the compromise of not making them fly back for meaningless games in NZ in October, is that they come down for 1 week at the end of the season and play a game or two then.  We could work with the Aussie federation and see if we can make the trans-tasman game a yearly fixture, or I am sure we could get something else organised.  During that week, they see their family, do lots of promotional work, play a couple more games, then they get their summer off for the holiday.  They are not forced into coming, but I am sure that they will be a lot more agreeable to the idea due to the fact they know the NZFA are working with them.  Kids will also look up to kiwi players they see playing week in, week out in the premier league.
 
The comment that Sammy made about how they have to realise that if they get selected for games they have to come is just not going to work.  In the UK players can cry off internationals very easily and that is with the "threat" of having to see the national team doctor for clearance.  NZ are not going to fly a doctor over here to examine Nelsen if he says his hamstring is tight, and he is sure as sh*t not going to fly back to have to prove it.


Here's the thing Frankie- the country is hungry to have a real taste of top level football and we won't get it without Reid and Nelsen. The games aren't meaningless for us.
 
and here lies the problem - we should be talking about what is best for the team and the players, not what is best for the fans. 

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
No, it's bigger than that.  It's what is best for the game in this country in the current climate.

We're close to making a permanent mark, not just a flash in the pan.  The full squad here for these games ?  Stamps the memory in the heads of all new Zealanders.

It's all well and good poncing around at the World Cup, but here the New Zealand public get to see these players in New Zealand showing that they're not just in it for the glory moments.  When you are competing with sports like League, Netball and Union where there are either so few nations or we have the biggest brand in the sport it is important that a presence and impact is made at home. 

The others sports get that by default, but Joe Sixpack won't see that.  He'll just write it off as a bunch of overpaid primadonnas that don't want to really be New Zealanders.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Napier Phoenix wrote:
1. I'm certain NZF could employ a doctor based in East London or Blackburn to carry out a physical if needed.
 
2.There is an equally possible scenario that: Nelson, Reid, Woods and Smith decide to stay in the UK and not travel back to NZ to play against Honduras and Paraguay. As a result the games attract low numbers, NZ is soundly beaten in both games resulting in a loss of FIFA ranking points and being unable to attract any decent opposition to play again in the foreseeable future. NZF lose a substantial amount of money on the games and has to severely cut back its investment in the grass roots of the game and the NZ game suffers. No future stars are developed through the youth system and NZ never qualifies for a World Cup again. True NZ fans that supported the AWs when the likes of Reid and Smith didn't play for them, become disillussioned and decide to spend more time and money on supporting somehting that they think shows them the respect they deserve. The new fans that got caught up in the euphoria of our World Cup success go along to the games and are put off forever because they didn't see our stars and we got a thrashing.
 
3. From what I've seen and heard so far is that Winston is quite happy to come home and play for us, he knows that his WC campaign had a lot to do with where he is now. I think he will do the right thing and come home. The Nelsen interview was a bit of a beat up and I think the emphasis has been put on the negative connotation rather than dismissing it as simply one of the things that would be going through Winston's mind as he makes the right decision. Ryan can afford to stay in the UK, he is near the end of his career, has now played in a World Cup and [perhaps] in the back of his mind knows that he did Nz a favour by playing for us and not the other way around.
 
4. Football is a team game and I am a firm believer that the best people make the decisions that are best for the bigger picture, not just what is best for themselves. Generational thing I guess.
 
1.  I am sure that they could, but it would not stop players pulling out of the games that they see no benefit in attending (much like the British players pull out of internationals despite having to have seen the national team doctor). Would only be a wasted expense.
 
2. This scenario can be avoided by playing games somewhere that is convenient for the majority of the squad - the states or Asia.  Travelling to NZ is not convenient for the small number of UK based players, but as it happens they are the stars that everything is dependent on.
 
3. Reid might be keen to come home now, but will he also be keen to do it again in the next FIFA window?  And the one after that?
 
4. meh

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
No, it's bigger than that.  It's what is best for the game in this country in the current climate.

We're close to making a permanent mark, not just a flash in the pan.  The full squad here for these games ?  Stamps the memory in the heads of all new Zealanders.

It's all well and good poncing around at the World Cup, but here the New Zealand public get to see these players in New Zealand showing that they're not just in it for the glory moments.  When you are competing with sports like League, Netball and Union where there are either so few nations or we have the biggest brand in the sport it is important that a presence and impact is made at home. 

The others sports get that by default, but Joe Sixpack won't see that.  He'll just write it off as a bunch of overpaid primadonnas that don't want to really be New Zealanders.
 
I went to school with Joe Sixpack, and he is a c**t, so I don't give a flying f**k what he sees or doesn't.
 
I don't really care about the significance of football with the average man in the street in NZ - I care about the success of the team.  I just cannot see how the idea of insisting that players spend about 60 hours in an airplane in a week to play a meaningless game ("but it is not meaningless because I want to go to it....") can be good for the team.  Having them play games with a full squad against quality opposition is what is good for the team - something that is a lot more likely to happen if games are scheduled in countries that make travel manageable for everyone.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
No, it's bigger than that.  It's what is best for the game in this country in the current climate.

We're close to making a permanent mark, not just a flash in the pan.  The full squad here for these games ?  Stamps the memory in the heads of all new Zealanders.

It's all well and good poncing around at the World Cup, but here the New Zealand public get to see these players in New Zealand showing that they're not just in it for the glory moments.  When you are competing with sports like League, Netball and Union where there are either so few nations or we have the biggest brand in the sport it is important that a presence and impact is made at home. 

The others sports get that by default, but Joe Sixpack won't see that.  He'll just write it off as a bunch of overpaid primadonnas that don't want to really be New Zealanders.


Sports teams live on heroes and villans and a sense of ownership and belonging to them.

If they come back to give us something real they are ours...agree it is great to have Winston in West Ham, but not an either or prospect...

Unless it doesn't matter to have any New Zealand fans of the NZ football team. I appreciate the sentiments Frankie...but you are coming close to makin some twat calls. I'm not saying the games have meaning cos I want them, but because New Zealanders want and deserve to see their country men who actually know how to play this game properly, and have attracted decent opposition this far south with their efforts.

and I haven't voted yet. go figure.
martinb2010-08-20 21:47:08


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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie Mac wrote:
Napier Phoenix wrote:
1. I'm certain NZF could employ a doctor based in East London or Blackburn to carry out a physical if needed.
 
2.There is an equally possible scenario that: Nelson, Reid, Woods and Smith decide to stay in the UK and not travel back to NZ to play against Honduras and Paraguay. As a result the games attract low numbers, NZ is soundly beaten in both games resulting in a loss of FIFA ranking points and being unable to attract any decent opposition to play again in the foreseeable future. NZF lose a substantial amount of money on the games and has to severely cut back its investment in the grass roots of the game and the NZ game suffers. No future stars are developed through the youth system and NZ never qualifies for a World Cup again. True NZ fans that supported the AWs when the likes of Reid and Smith didn't play for them, become disillussioned and decide to spend more time and money on supporting somehting that they think shows them the respect they deserve. The new fans that got caught up in the euphoria of our World Cup success go along to the games and are put off forever because they didn't see our stars and we got a thrashing.
 
3. From what I've seen and heard so far is that Winston is quite happy to come home and play for us, he knows that his WC campaign had a lot to do with where he is now. I think he will do the right thing and come home. The Nelsen interview was a bit of a beat up and I think the emphasis has been put on the negative connotation rather than dismissing it as simply one of the things that would be going through Winston's mind as he makes the right decision. Ryan can afford to stay in the UK, he is near the end of his career, has now played in a World Cup and [perhaps] in the back of his mind knows that he did Nz a favour by playing for us and not the other way around.
 
4. Football is a team game and I am a firm believer that the best people make the decisions that are best for the bigger picture, not just what is best for themselves. Generational thing I guess.
 
1.  I am sure that they could, but it would not stop players pulling out of the games that they see no benefit in attending (much like the British players pull out of internationals despite having to have seen the national team doctor). Would only be a wasted expense.
 
2. This scenario can be avoided by playing games somewhere that is convenient for the majority of the squad - the states or Asia.  Travelling to NZ is not convenient for the small number of UK based players, but as it happens they are the stars that everything is dependent on.
 
3. Reid might be keen to come home now, but will he also be keen to do it again in the next FIFA window?  And the one after that?
 
4. meh
 
Let's stick to the facts - NZF have said they intend to schedule 1 home friendly match (or set of matches) a year.  Other friendlies will be held in more convenient places

Normo's coming home

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I have used no facts up to now, so I don't see why I should start.
 
If the NZFA have said that, good on them.  One game at home a year, with plenty of other fixtures in more convenient places is what I have been talking about all along.  I still have a problem with the fixture at home being this one, as it is such a bad time of the year to make players travel that kind of distance - the end of the season would be the ideal time to do it.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
Let's stick to the facts - NZF have said they intend to schedule 1 home friendly match (or set of matches) a year.� Other friendlies will be held in more convenient places


Thats the key thing for me. NZF seem to be quite aware of the difficulties for the players of getting back here. Glading appears to have committed to no more than one trip back here a year, with the rest of the games to be played in more convenient locations for the european players. I don't think that one trip a year is to much to ask.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I guess games in the States and Asia seem geographically the best for future games then? Aside from the one in NZ. That's another debate though.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Its always an inconvenient time.
 
But i think this time was chosen as a way of generating interest after the world cup,if it were to be early next year,the average NZer would have forgotten about the WC and you wouldn't see the kind of attendances you will see with these upcoming games.
 
It is important that football is imprinted on peoples minds. They can come see the stars from the WC,and hopefully that will lead to more juniors taking up the sport seriously,and will lead to more football fans and an expansion of the sport here.
 
You wont have that same imprint in peoples minds come the beginning to middle of next year.

Allegedly

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
i got upgraded to business class for the first leg of my flight last time i came back to NZ - 60 hours on a plane within the space of a week aint that bad!!
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Did you also have to play 2 games of top flight football either side of those flights (4 games total)?

Allegedly

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Well, was kind of joking, but fair point - i did have a kick about with my mate in Vic park, and handled it OK, got a bit puffed, but i might have anyway, or it could've been the beer....
 
 
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie Mac wrote:
I just cannot see how the idea of insisting that players spend about 60 hours in an airplane in a week to play a meaningless game ("but it is not meaningless because I want to go to it....") can be good for the team.


Frankie - you keep using the word "meaningless" in regard to these games.

By what measure are these games any more or less meaningful that Wolves vs West Ham on 16 October? Because I gotta be honest with you man, I couldn't give a flying f**k about the outcome of that clash of the titans. Let's face it, next season that's a Championship fixture.

At the end of the day it's all just bread and circuses. It's just entertainment and, if anything, the EPL is the most extreme manifestation of that in professional football. Players change clubs and clubs change players, there's no loyalty, it's just business.

So actually, if you are looking for any real "meaning" left in football maybe it's only left in the international scene where you play for one country and it does actually mean something. Winston, if he's to be believed about his reasons for choosing to play for NZ, is a perfect example of that.

Maybe it just means more to him to play his first international(s) at home, in front of his family and friends and maybe 40-50 thousand people who f**king love him, than to stay behind and worry about whether he's in the match day squad for an away trip to Wolverhampton.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
umm....no club is important!! and damn meaningful...but think NZ is too...we want his club fans to love him too...

a 3am game is great, but we want to bring the atmosphere and the excitement home...make it solid and tangible...make us believe we are real football fans with a real football team....

and considering what Scotland wanted to come here before!! Paraguay and Honduras coming here is great news...


can Cosimo or someone summarise this thread and tell me how I should vote on this one?

martinb2010-08-21 11:10:54


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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Gourdietv3 wrote:
Sorry guys, I haven't read this thread but i've just blogged and thought i'd share my thoughts


Considering you haven't read this thread you are still in agreement with just about everybody here except Frankie Mac, and he's just cacking himself already that West Ham are going doooooown.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
this has nothing to do with West Ham and everything to do with what is best for the national team.  The fact that I am a West Ham fan is a red herring, as I have been making the same arguements for Nelsen not to go home for internationals for years, and personally I couldn't give a flying f**k about Blackburn Rovers.
 
I have stated my ideal situation would be of NZ playing regular games in more convenient locations with 2 games in NZ at the end of the European season, and it appears that most people on here think that is a reasonable idea.  Having our strongest squad play together in NZ for the adoring fans is far less important than having our strongest squad playing together, and that should be the priority.  The idea of losing our best player (by a country mile) due to backing him into a corner so he says "f**k the hassle, I retire from international football" is too great to mess around with.
 
Term-X - you mention that you do not care about West Ham vs Wolves, and that is fine.  No one is asking you to.  You have to admit though, that having young players like Reid and Smith playing in the premier league and championship is great for NZ football, as they will only become better players from it. 
 
 

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I say bring back and play our top XI. These are good games. if successful and win they will improve there ranking. Its professional football. Get on with it I  say

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie Mac wrote:
this has nothing to do with West Ham and everything to do with what is best for the national team.  The fact that I am a West Ham fan is a red herring, as I have been making the same arguements for Nelsen not to go home for internationals for years, and personally I couldn't give a flying f**k about Blackburn Rovers.
 
I have stated my ideal situation would be of NZ playing regular games in more convenient locations with 2 games in NZ at the end of the European season, and it appears that most people on here think that is a reasonable idea.  Having our strongest squad play together in NZ for the adoring fans is far less important than having our strongest squad playing together, and that should be the priority.  The idea of losing our best player (by a country mile) due to backing him into a corner so he says "f**k the hassle, I retire from international football" is too great to mess around with.
 
Term-X - you mention that you do not care about West Ham vs Wolves, and that is fine.  No one is asking you to.  You have to admit though, that having young players like Reid and Smith playing in the premier league and championship is great for NZ football, as they will only become better players from it.


I agree with just about everything you say there. It's you who seems to be making a mountain out of the issue of these two friendlies, which by almost all accounts will be a one-off situation designed purely to keep the World Cup momentum going a little while longer. And Winston himself appears keen to come, so where's the problem?

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie Mac wrote:
[this has nothing to do with West Ham and everything to do with what is best for the national team.  The fact that I am a West Ham fan is a maroon herring]

Fixed

[ I have been making the same arguements for Nelsen not to go home for internationals for years.]

I dont see the necessity generally for him to be here when we play Fiji, or Vanuatu, being here for the games in the build up to qualifying depend on who the opposition is for me, and we have seen that he has the experience to slot in any time if he is needed. However I would like to see him back for this window. For the good of the game and the adoring fans here. Next year we are going to be swamped by rugby, lets make the most of it now.
 
[I have stated my ideal situation would be of NZ playing regular games in more convenient locations with 2 games in NZ at the end of the European season, and it appears that most people on here think that is a reasonable idea.]

That would work for me after this.
 
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

NZF only wants the AW players to make one trip home per year. Compare that with the number of home games you see other countries play and I don't think its too much to expect Reid etc to come and play here.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The obvious difference being that European and Americas as well as Asian and African nations are so much closer to Europe where most players are playing. If we New Zealand plonked itself in Europe instead of the middle of nowhere it would be much easier.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
The others sports get that by default, but Joe Sixpack won't see that.  He'll just write it off as a bunch of overpaid primadonnas that don't want to really be New Zealanders.

Isn't Joe Sixpack an American?
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie Mac wrote:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/4048033/Under-hammer-Reid-doesn-t-need-jet-lag
 
So what happens when we have 7 or 8 players in the top European leagues? They will all have a short turnaround to be back in action for their clubs. Do we excuse them all from international duty because of the jet lag? Sets some kind of a precedent to use jetlag as an excuse I'm afraid.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
just highlighting the fact that I am not the only person who once had an association with Wharfies that believes that there is no merit in bringing Reid or Nelsen back for the games (although BH never says that Nelsen should not come back).

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I see it this way. They are professional football players, they have an obligation to play for their Country and club. Its not just a friendly game. Its building from the WC and making sure this country is exposed to its AW stars. These friendly games also count for world rankings.

Reid excepted to play for his country of origin.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
darkhorse wrote:

I see it this way. They are professional football players, they have an obligation to play for their Country and club. Its not just a friendly game. Its building from the WC and making sure this country is exposed to its AW stars. These friendly games also count for world rankings.

Reid excepted to play for his country of origin.
 
Well, it is though, isn't it.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Sorry comes down to this:

If it is a friendly game is it meaningless? No it f**kingwell isn't Frankie! There are another bloody 40-50 odd games this season for West Ham and there hasn't been a proper international of high quality in New Zealand for donkey's years, let alone with the possiblity of real crowds, real interest, real passion, real media attention, and a really good f**king game.

The boy wants to come. It is his passionate display for his country at the WC that has helped to propel him this far. Is it really in your honest opinion going to monumentallyl damage his career or is it just a case of cultural cringe and a disconnect of how starved of football we are down here?

Or is any game out of a tournament or the EPL meaningless? The confeds cup was damn well meaningless. We played f**kn Mulligan and he shoulder tackled a Spaniards ankle (no offense David, but), the Wales game was not! It was a friendly but fuk me was it important in getting us to this point. These games are just as important.

discuss. Or be a patronising twat. word. refute for preference...


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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
martinb wrote:
Sorry comes down to this:

If it is a friendly game is it meaningless? No it f**kingwell isn't Frankie! There are another bloody 40-50 odd games this season for West Ham and there hasn't been a proper international of high quality in New Zealand for donkey's years, let alone with the possiblity of real crowds, real interest, real passion, real media attention, and a really good f**king game.[/QUOTE]
 
Again, the problem of mixing up what is best for the national team and what is best for the supporters.  Having a bigger crowd, media attention and passion in NZ is completely by-the-by.  Getting games for the team against quality opposition is what is important, and you are less likely to do that if games are scheduled in NZ.

martinb wrote:
The boy wants to come. It is his passionate display for his country at the WC that has helped to propel him this far. Is it really in your honest opinion going to monumentallyl damage his career or is it just a case of cultural cringe and a disconnect of how starved of football we are down here?[/QUOTE]
 
I have not seen anything to suggest that "the boy wants to come", and even if I did I would take it with a pinch of salt - he is hardly going to tell a journo that he doesn't want to come and play for NZ.  I don't know if taking the trip will cause monumental damage to his career, but I honestly don't see it being worth the risk.

[QUOTE=martinb]Or is any game out of a tournament or the EPL meaningless? The confeds cup was damn well meaningless. We played f**kn Mulligan and he shoulder tackled a Spaniards ankle (no offense David, but), the Wales game was not! It was a friendly but fuk me was it important in getting us to this point. These games are just as important.
 
Games for NZ are essential, so every concession should be made to ensure that when we have the chance to play them we have the strongest squad there.

[QUOTE=martinb]discuss. Or be a patronising twat. word. refute for preference...
 
I have tried to discuss and be a patronising twat.  Word back at ya.
 
At the end of the day, I don't really give a f**k if Reid comes back/decides not to come back/is persuaded against coming back by the club/packs in the game to become a monk.  Whatever happens, happens.  In the process of posting in this thread I have discovered that the NZFA are planning on getting players back to NZ for one game a year which I think it a fair compromise (although personally I believe it would be better to have the game at the end of the European season). 
 
I am sure that you would all love to see the full squad play frequently in NZ, and I don't blame you.  The problem is that I do not see how it benefits the the team more than playing fixtures elsewhere, and by trying to force the issue you are running the risk of backing players in corners with horrible repercussions.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
suceeding admirably. still haven't decided if I want him to stay in the Uk or come back for the games.

We have got quality opposition and in NZ why shouldn't we have as good a squad as possible on thsi occasion.

I don't think you can make a clear distinction between supporters/game/team here...in NZ terms...


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