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Posted September 01, 2016 21:50 · last edited September 01, 2016 21:52

paulm wrote:

ConanTroutman wrote:

paulm wrote:

ConanTroutman wrote:

 Any utopian ideology which people kill for(fascism, communism, extreme religious or nationalist movements etc) is as bad as the others.

People kill for almost all ideologies

Capitalist democracies included

True, although there's a danger of making a false equivalence there. Our way of government has its flaws but I can't think of an example of a modern capitalist democracy committing widespread and systemic murder of its citizens on ideological grounds. Liberal democracy as an ideology includes the concepts of rule of law and the primacy of individual rights over collective whims, even if in practice those concepts may sometimes get chucked out the window.

Anyway, getting way off topic as always. I just think that Steaua owner is a massive fudgewit.

In concept, fascism and communism shouldn't involve killing either, but the actual practice over history has been another matter. 

Same goes with capitalist democracy. Plenty of killing done in the name of that. 

Ironically many fascist and communist governments over history, and now, are heavily supported by capitalist democracies simply because it's in their best financial interests. 

Bottom line is that whatever system you're bought up in, you're going to say that's the best one, and all others are terrible. Human nature I guess. 

I don't agree that last bit - if that was the case Russia would still have a Tsar and France would still have a king and South Africa would still have white minority rule and liberal democracy wouldn't have spread so much in the first place.

I do agree largely with your first bit, but I do think that the reason that liberal democracy is the best political system we've tried so far is because domestically at least it has mechanisms to allow for dissent and minority rights. Those mechanisms are weak or non-existent between states at an international level so the actions of liberal democracies outside their own borders is a different thing altogether. Power corrupts, especially when it's wielded by someone acting ideologically rather than pragmatically,and the liberal democracy model puts checks and balances on that power in a way that other systems haven't been able to do. 

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ConanTroutman edited September 01, 2016 21:52
paulm wrote:
ConanTroutman wrote:
paulm wrote:
ConanTroutman wrote:

 Any utopian ideology which people kill for(fascism, communism, extreme religious or nationalist movements etc) is as bad as the others.

People kill for almost all ideologies

Capitalist democracies included

True, although there's a danger of making a false equivalence there. Our way of government has its flaws but I can't think of an example of a modern capitalist democracy committing widespread and systemic murder of its citizens on ideological grounds. Liberal democracy as an ideology includes the concepts of rule of law and the primacy of individual rights over collective whims, even if in practice those concepts may sometimes get chucked out the window.

Anyway, getting way off topic as always. I just think that Steaua owner is a massive fudgewit.

In concept, fascism and communism shouldn't involve killing either, but the actual practice over history has been another matter. 

Same goes with capitalist democracy. Plenty of killing done in the name of that. 

Ironically many fascist and communist governments over history, and now, are heavily supported by capitalist democracies simply because it's in their best financial interests. 

Bottom line is that whatever system you're bought up in, you're going to say that's the best one, and all others are terrible. Human nature I guess. 

I don't agree that last bit - if that was the case Russia would still have a Tsar and France would still have a king and South Africa would still have white minority rule and liberal democracy wouldn't have spread so much in the first place.

I do agree largely with your first bit, but I do think that the reason that liberal democracy is the best political system we've tried so far is because domestically at least it has mechanisms to allow for dissent and minority rights. Those mechanisms are weak or non-existent between states at an international level so the actions of liberal democracies outside their own borders is a different thing altogether. Power corrupts and the liberal democracy model puts checks and balances on that power in a way that other systems haven't been able to do.