General Football Discussion

How to measure a "big" Football Club

68 replies · 19,204 views
almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oh EG, but even saying 2 Portuguese titles = 1 English title is very subjective in its own right 

You make a good point about European leagues pre Bosman and basically pre Sky and all the money that now engulfs the game. Croatian clubs were also competing in a stronger league (old Yugoslav league) back then too. Once Yugoslavia split and all the new countries founded their own league of course they would be weaker and far more saturated. It would be like the A-League disbanding and all the sides returning to their respective state leagues.

Three for me, and two for them.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
You make a good point about European leagues pre Bosman and basically pre Sky and all the money that now engulfs the game. Croatian clubs were also competing in a stronger league (old Yugoslav league) back then too. Once Yugoslavia split and all the new countries founded their own league of course they would be weaker and far more saturated. It would be like the A-League disbanding and all the sides returning to their respective state leagues.


That's true - but I also don't think that Dinamo now is, for example, weaker than in the 1980s. Sure the Croatian league is pretty poor now, but even into the 1990s we were competetive in Europe, and we're struggling now.

In 1999 Dinamo went to Old Trafford in the Champions League and had a 0-0 draw. Now we'd be lucky with a 3-goal loss. But guess this is an entirely different discussion, so I'll stop here.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Not sure how the CM or FM database is like now, but I am sure they have a point system on club reputation. Probably has a slight bias towards recent club status but would be interesting to see.

I am also interested if it is a worthy sign of how 'big' a football club is by how well it is known around the world, around Africa, Asia, N America, in NZ etc. by average joe blogs on the street. Some might say that is a bit simplistic and does not take into account past successes or clubs from less popular leagues, but that is the point that these clubs are able to permeate into peoples conciousness without these people having to be extremely involved in the game.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
there really is no end to this discussion, so hard to compare teams over such a long period of time. one could break it down eg; biggest clubs of 70s 80s 90s and today (like classic hits of course )

like comparing sports people from different eras.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
El-Ni�o wrote:
el grapadura wrote:
Michael wrote:
Anyway ranking United outside of the top two is bias.
To be honest, the numbering is a bit random - I'm no Real Madrid fan, but they're clearly number 1. After that, any of the next 5-6 clubs could easily be swapped around and there'd still be arguments. I had to rank them somehow, and that's how it turned out. On a different night I might have done it differently.

 

Rubbish. They won 5 European Cups purely because of Franco. And many other titles with the help of the Spanish Government. Surely they lose points for political influence on their results...


As much as I dislike them (mainly for all the things you've mentioned), you can't argue with their stature in the world game.

There simply isn't a bigger club in the world than Real Madrid.
 
I was speaking in jest. There is no way to argue with it. As you rightly say, the others can be swapped around, but they are the biggest club in the world. Arrogant, fascist scum.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Going by some of the logic im seeing here... Leeds must be one of the top 5 biggest clubs in the world. Of all time. Ever.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
AJ13 wrote:
Going by some of the logic im seeing here... Leeds must be one of the top 5 biggest clubs in the world. Of all time. Ever.


Hmm let's see. 3 League titles. 1 FA Cup. Never won the European Cup. Spent the last 6 years outside of the Premiership, 3 of those 6 years being in League 1.

So, in other words...Leeds
Buffon II2010-04-08 07:24:54

Three for me, and two for them.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Obvious sarcasm was obvious. I was told earlier by someone that Chelsea are not a big club because "they have no history"....  despite being very consistant at over powering 95% of teams they face.

'Big' is a broad term.
AJ132010-04-08 07:45:21
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yes me. And i stand by that. And they are not bigger than any of the clubs EG listed for a start. And he could list several more that are still bigger than Chelsea.

Three for me, and two for them.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
Yes me. And i stand by that. And they are not bigger than any of the clubs EG listed for a start. And he could list several more that are still bigger than Chelsea.
 
This.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Big in terms of what though? Big fan base? Big player base? Big threat to top teams? Big expenditure? Big names?
AJ132010-04-08 11:13:48
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Trophies.

Three for me, and two for them.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
AJ13 wrote:

Big in terms of what though? Big fan base? Big player base? Big threat to top teams? Big expenditure? Big names?


See the first few posts in the thread where we talked about some of the criteria as to what makes a club 'big' in world terms.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

While it is hard to compare leagues, some are definitley more competitive than others. While Porto might dominate Portugal, like Lyon does France, but there is hardly the competition. Even Spain is usually a toss-up between the big two. England has four "big" teams, so winning the Premier League is major feat.

As far as bigness goes, some teams over the past 10-15 years have sought to become global brands. At the forefront of this is ManU, Lpool, and Chelsea. I suppose a bigness indicator, as far as their bigness in New Zealand goes, is whose shirts can you buy in sports stores. Sure in NZ there is an English bias due to population, but you often see Barca, RM, AC, Inter, Bayen, and Juve stock. You also see LA Galaxy stock too, though. 

I don't know where I'm going with this, but yeah.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Footpaul wrote:

While it is hard to compare leagues, some are definitley more competitive than others. While Porto might dominate Portugal, like Lyon does France, but there is hardly the competition. Even Spain is usually a toss-up between the big two. England has four "big" teams, so winning the Premier League is major feat.




Like I said in an earlier post, things weren't always the way they are now.

And the team that's been most dominant in Portugal historically is Benfica. And historically, there's really been no dominant club in France - different clubs enjoyed success at different times. Lyon is just the latest club to join that trend.

And as for the comparison of Spain and England - more Spanish clubs have won La Liga this decade (4) than English clubs the Premiership (3).
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
And as for the comparison of Spain and England - more Spanish clubs have won La Liga this decade (4) than English clubs the Premiership (3).[/QUOTE]
Getting a little off topic, but I see that changing in this next decade of 2 Spanish clubs winning La Liga as they dont negotiate TV deals as a collective (as the premier league does) so Real and Barca can negotiate TV deals that far eclipse probably any team in the world (as shown by their rankings in the football money league) and are going to monopolise the league (and possibly Europe) like never seen before.

Slightly back on topic, given that Real and Barca are probably the biggest clubs in Latin America and the Iberian peninsula and these areas currently produce the worlds best players, these players will be drawn to playing for these clubs rather than a Man Utd or Chelsea, like CR9 leaving Man Utd to play for Real.

I think there should also be a distinction between a prestigious club and a big club. I just asked a work-mate who he thought was the biggest in the world - Man Utd - obvious as British history in this country and therefore increased exposure of British teams, but I asked him if had heard of Boca Juniors, never heard of them...as I said in an earlier post, a big team should be recognisable. [quote=Bullion]I am also interested if it is a worthy sign of how 'big' a football club is by how well it is known around the world, around Africa, Asia, N America, in NZ etc. by average joe blogs on the street. Some might say that is a bit simplistic and does not take into account past successes or clubs from less popular leagues, but that is the point that these clubs are able to permeate into peoples conciousness without these people having to be extremely involved in the game.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Feverish wrote:
Im trying to find Frankie Mac's comical formula to determine 'big clubness' from a thread a couple of years ago - but I can't.
 
found it
 

Big Clubness

Leeds manager Dennis Wise recently responded to transfer speculation about star striker Jermaine Beckworth by stating that he would not be going to Derby County, as they are a smaller club than Leeds United.  So let me get this straight � Leeds (League 1 and playing Doncaster Rovers at home this weekend) are a bigger club than Derby County (Premiership and playing Portsmouth.......damn it � why couldn�t they get Manchester United this weekend?).

So what constitutes a �big club�?  Is Newcastle a big club because of their large home and away support, despite not winning anything in half a century?  Can Middlesbrough be considered a big club due to their established premiership status and (somewhat) recent European forays, despite never coming close to filling the Riverside Stadium?  Can West Ham be considered a big club when you look at all the players they developed plying their trade elsewhere?  Can Perennial strugglers Liverpool be considered a big club when Dirk Kuyt makes regular appearances in their first team?

To help settle this argument for once and for all, I have devised a points system to calculate the Big Clubness of a club.  This system will consider the following components � fan base, history (sorry Chelsea), current position, money and sex appeal.  So let�s use this system to see if Mr Wise lives up to his name...

Leeds United

Derby County

7 major domestic trophies and 2 European trophies.

3 points

3 major domestic honours.

1 point

40,204 capacity stadium, and season average attendance of 27,198 (67.6% of capacity).

2 points

33,597 capacity stadium, and season average attendance of 32,136 (95.6% of capacity).

3 points

Currently placed 47th out of 92 league clubs.  Average 1.8 goals scored and 0.8 goals conceded per game.

2 points

Currently placed 20th out of 92 league clubs.  Average 0.4 goals scored and 2.1 goals conceded per game.

1 point

Record transfer fee paid �18 million for Rio Ferdinand in 2000.

4 points

Record transfer fee paid �3.5 million for Robert Earnshaw in 2007.

2 points

Leeds United has no sex appeal as it is based in a northern town.

0 points

Derby County has no sex appeal as it moved from a stadium named after a completely different sport (Baseball Ground) to Pride Park.  I mean, what is that all about?  A pride of Rams?????

0 points

Total Leeds United points

11

Total Derby County points

7

 

Well, there you have it � according to the patented Frankie Mac big clubness ranking system based on 5 key factors (name still to be confirmed) Leeds United is a bigger club than Derby County.  I guess that means we won�t be seeing Jermaine Beckworth in a Derby County shirt anytime soon.

Note: If anyone wants to see the exact formula which determines the points allocated for each component, I suggest that you get out more.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Can you use the system on actual clubs?

Ta.

Three for me, and two for them.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Not "biggest" but richest as per Deloittes:
 

Richest Clubs In The World 2009/2010

The Deloitte Football Money League gets updated every February and here is the most recent richest football clubs in the world list according to their figures. Surprisingly Newcastle United, the now Championship club, are in 20th position, just a place behind Manchester City. Tottenham Hotspur find themselves in 15th place, another quite surprising position for them.

Position Club Turnover in � Millions Country 1. Real Madrid 401.4 Spain 2. Barcelona 365.9 Spain 3. Manchester United 327.0 England 4. Bayern Munich 289.5 Germany 5. Arsenal 0 England 6. Chelsea 242.3 England 7. Perennial strugglers Liverpool 217.0 England 8. Juventus 203.2 Italy 9. Internazionale 196.5 Italy 10. Milan 196.5 Italy 11. Hamburg 146.7 Germany 12. Roma 146.4 Italy 13. Lyon 139.6 France 14. Marseille 133.2 France 15. Tottenham Hotspur 132.7 England 16. Schalke 04 124.5 Germany 17. Werder Bremen 114.7 Germany 18. Borrusia Dortmund 103.5 Germany 19. Manchester City 101.2 England 20. Newcastle United 101.0 England
http://footyblog.net/football-news/news/richest-clubs-in-the-world-top-20-list/
 
Forbes seemingly has Toon at 20th and Spurs at 12th:
 

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
A few remarks from Aon's, new sponsor of Man Utd, CEO

http://www.aon.com/unitedin2010/about/announcement.htm

Some selected quotes:
As the #1 brand in the world�s #1 sport, Manchester United gives the Aon brand a truly global platform with exposure to the world�s largest fan base of over one billion soccer fans and the over 330 million Manchester United fans... more than 6 million Manchester United shirts are sold in a year...90 million people watch their weekly matches. Approximately 1.15 billion households have access to Manchester United�s games, and their web site receives approximately 60 million impressions per month, of which 70 percent are outside of the United Kingdom. And Manchester United has no match in sports when it comes to their global brand awareness: 100 percent in the U.K. and Korea, 98 percent in Germany, 90 percent in China, and 80 percent in Japan.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
90% in China is a fairly major feat.
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about 13 years ago

Deloitte measures 

Newcastle will no doubt go down next season as it's share from TV revenue will probably plummet.



"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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about 13 years ago

Anyone else get as frustrated and angry with La Liga as much as I do? Such a farce and disgrace of a league.

We will never fully decide who has won the football.

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about 13 years ago

Azevo wrote:

Anyone else get as frustrated and angry with La Liga as much as I do? Such a farce and disgrace of a league.

Personally I don't let it bother me. 

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about 13 years ago

Azevo wrote:

Anyone else get as frustrated and angry with La Liga as much as I do? Such a farce and disgrace of a league.

Care to elaborate?
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about 13 years ago

The whole collective bargaining of La Liga T.V. deals tops my list, very unfairly spread. You have their two top teams claiming half of the 500 million odd Euros and then the rest is left for the other 18 teams to absorb. (I think Valencia gets 50 million Euros..) I know that the deal is done on viewership and popularity of the teams, but a lot of clubs really need that money to be evenly gifted to them as much as possible.


Secondly is the that leading figures over there seem to think that exporting as much La Liga as possible to Asia is the way to solvethe impending debt crisis of a bulk of clubs in La Liga. It seems to be almost destined to become a "third world" league, where even more so than now there will be only 2 clubs in the competition.


Clubs are even resorting to fielding reserve teams against Madrid and Barcelona because they know they can't win. Is it Barcelona and Madrid's fault? Yes and No,no more or less than any other clubs in the league or the league itself.


I could bang on for hours about the economic doo-dah and what not's happening in Spain, but this is something which for some reason or another gets me fired up.



To put this on topic.. When measuring clubs finances against one and other from around the world, it seems a large part to rely on the actual conditions which a club is operating in. 


We will never fully decide who has won the football.

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about 13 years ago

How about this for a "big" club:


"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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about 13 years ago

Azevo wrote:

The whole collective bargaining of La Liga T.V. deals tops my list, very unfairly spread. You have their two top teams claiming half of the 500 million odd Euros and then the rest is left for the other 18 teams to absorb. (I think Valencia gets 50 million Euros..) I know that the deal is done on viewership and popularity of the teams, but a lot of clubs really need that money to be evenly gifted to them as much as possible.


Secondly is the that leading figures over there seem to think that exporting as much La Liga as possible to Asia is the way to solvethe impending debt crisis of a bulk of clubs in La Liga. It seems to be almost destined to become a "third world" league, where even more so than now there will be only 2 clubs in the competition.


Clubs are even resorting to fielding reserve teams against Madrid and Barcelona because they know they can't win. Is it Barcelona and Madrid's fault? Yes and No,no more or less than any other clubs in the league or the league itself.


I could bang on for hours about the economic doo-dah and what not's happening in Spain, but this is something which for some reason or another gets me fired up.



To put this on topic.. When measuring clubs finances against one and other from around the world, it seems a large part to rely on the actual conditions which a club is operating in. 



You talking la liga or ASBP?


Allegedly

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