New Zealand Men's U-20s

Must be your bandwidth.. my feed has been fine.

Mata gets red card after final whistle for throwing the ball into the defenders head...not the sharpest tack in the toolbox it seems...probably means suspension from under 20 World Cup.

Callan Elliott is who you're thinking of. Matt Conroy's Nix connection is playing for the reserves early last summer, before suffering an injury he's only just come back from.

Runs in family that Mata's dont have respect for game.

It was discraceful at the end

That's not necessary! Seriously, a kid  makes a mistake and you dive into the family. Shame on you

I'll remind people in this thread of both rule 4 and 7.

http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/categories/general-announcements/topics/forum-rules-and-regulations

4. No sl*gging players off (and I'd include their family).

7. Respect other posters. You may not agee with a view but a reply just insulting someone does not foster debate and makes you look foolish.

It was silly from Mata and he may pay for it with his spot in Poland if he sees more than one game ban but he is still a kid, have some respect.

Do friendlies count for suspensions?

No

I saw a twitter conversation that I thought worth discussing here. Essentially, does the squad who qualified go to Poland; or do the players who chose to make themselves unavailable to represent the shirt, due to club commitments (pre-season and Chatham Cup games) now come in over the top? Presuming of course that they make themselves available for a World Cup, as I'm sure there will be pre season and Chatham Cup next year too.

There's been some interesting discussion regarding senior players not making themselves available for some All Whites games. Is it any different for 18-19 year old kids and World Cup Qualification?

If this was a full international team for a tournament that Fritz was picking, would Wests say to their kids 'Chatham Cup is more important, stay here'? Its a massive middle finger from Declan and anyone that thinks anything otherwise is a little deluded.

Once you go past 20, you then have to back yourself to be good enough to get in the senior squad. Most of those players wont be able to do that. So why not take the U20 shirt which could potentially be the only time you play for your country? I accept that some people will feel that there may not be any 'football development' factor in it but you are talking 4 games plus a trip to Poland. Hardly career threatening and nothing to lose and possibly something to gain. Also those kids have not earnt the gravatus to be able to dictate when they play for their country. I think Nelsen, Reid, Thomas and Wood have.

If you've got a young kid that believes/is told Chatham Cup is more important than a one off cycle to play for your country, then I think you have made your bed, so lie in it because you made your choice long ago.

Someone is going to throw up Singh. He would be the only outlier but he is also a full international. The rest, no thanks.

I would hope that the players who made the effort to get to the training camps and the ones that eventually made the squad to Tahiti would be higher up the pecking order than those who chose to give qualification a miss. No disrespect to the players involved who chose (or had chosen for them) to bypass Tahiti - everyone has their reasons, but it'll be a good lesson for some that there are consequences for your actions (good life lesson chucked in there too for the kids). I mean If Trevor Zwetsloot can get here from Germany and commit to the cause, then players closer to home should probably be taking a long hard look at themselves and the opportunities they've passed up.

That may sound harsh but that's just reality. Conversely some players (Singh & Cacace) may still yet wriggle into the frame for selection to travel to Poland, but they'd probably be the only exceptions for mine. 

For best results, pick the best available team. Usually that will mean picking the best players, provided they don't disrupt the team.

'Teaching someone a lesson', 'serves them right', and 'fairness', shouldn't come in to it; these are poor and spiteful reasons to sacrifice results. NZF's job is to pick the best team - not to sit in judgement on players' morals.

In any case, "life is fair" is a harmful thing to teach a young person. So you went all the camps, all the trainings, and a better player who missed some took 'your' spot at the last moment - life *isn't* fair. Don't whine - get better.

Re Mata - Golden boot - yes - but most of those were penalties and easy goals set up by others. Lots and lots of missed chances. Needs to improve on finishing, touch especially, and passing. Moves broke down around him too often. Most significant touches of his were poor. Tried hard, but looks like there are good football reasons to look at other options for 2019 (Waine?), aside from the suspension and behaviour problems.

Apart from Mata, the other outstanding (for good reasons) player  was Conroy. Looks like he carried an injury in to the final but despite that was the most dangerous player on the team. His run created the goal, and another clear chance for Mata, just as he created goals and chances in the semi. He's slight, needs a bit of space to work in, and roamed all over the pitch looking for it. Unusual but effective tactic, and I hope that isn't coached out of him.

Hope the Nix offer him a scholarship position, as a longer term project, and he can recover from his recent injuries, work in the gym, and get bigger and stronger. Could be another Rojas in the making - potential matchwinner.

Elliot looked decent and Bell got better as the tournament went on - huge (if not perfect) game in the final; seemed to be everywhere.

Generally the team played much better in the final and controlled the game more, largely because of selection changes - better players, better play.

It’s a complicated issue - but I’d take to Poland the Nix two, plus those who were unavailable because they were trialling or about to trial with overseas clubs. The Nix face a critical 2 years, and having a successful pro team in NZ is so important for future of NZ football - so I’m okay with Rudan not releasing Singh & Carace.

Basically I would say no thanks to the five from Wests. To me Chatham Cup doesn’t take precedence over National age group WC qualifying. Plus NZF offered to reschedule West’s Chatham Cup tie.

If Edge/Wests/Ole are saying these Oceania tourneys actually harm a young players development, are they saying the same about age group World Cups? 

It’s a thorny issue for interim CEO to try sort out - but to me it’s Wests/Edge that need to change on this, not for NZF and specifically coach Buckingham to be effectively dictated to.

As Rudan said, if you guys (Singh and Cacace) go, I can't guarantee that the spots you had in the team will be there when you get back so you have to make a choice. A similar thing exists the other way. If you chose not to attend qualifying, there is are consequences and that may be that you miss out on Poland. For Singh, being a full international, that wont make a difference but he the only one that would probably come back into the team

Pick the best players at the time of the tournament.

There is another year before the tournament proper - a lot can happen between now and then. Out of all the main players missing (Just, McCowatt etc) they all had good reason for saying no.

The players who went were given a chance to impress that they might not have otherwise got - they don't deserve to simply hold on to it because we want to set an example of the others... where's the incentive for them to improve otherwise.

Fixed.

Some could argue that these kids missing or being kept from the U19/U20 setup is also spiteful and poor form...

If these kids would rather play a Chatham Cup match than represent their country - regardless of reasoning, background politics, meddling & mud slinging from different parties, then I'm sorry, but they've missed the boat. 

Let's teach them all a lesson by punishing them... makes a lot of sense... works so well in all other facets of life, why not in football?

I'm interested to know why people think representing you country is such a no-brainer, especially at youth level. I would rather our talented young players prioritise their development so they are the best they can be when they reach the All Whites. The qualifying tournaments are nowhere near the quality of the Central League or a Chatham Cup quarter-final.

EDIT: Just to preempt the argument that we should send our best possible team to help make sure we qualify, I also don't think the World Cups are that much use. They're a great experience for the kids, but the teams we send prioritise squeaking through the group and never look like the team NZFs own documents say youth teams should strive to look like. I'd be more sympathetic if we went out, played three games where we tried to play and gave our kid a chance to actually go toe to toe with other countries and treated getting through like a bonus. Youth World Cups generally have little relationship to how good a full national team becomes so we shouldn't worry so much about their results.

decisions have consequences.

These young adults made theirs and need to learn by their decisions

As I've previously said they may need to tell their grandchildren I didn't represent my country because I chose to play for wests in a quarter final 

If their grandchildren are four plus they may question their decision

If they think their reasoning was sound, they can explain it to them. I think it's far more mature to look at what you want to get out of your football career and decide not to play for your country if you think you're better off not doing it. Playing for NZ is reaching for the shiny object, giving it up because you think it will be better for your chances of an actual career in the game takes guts. Those Ole boys are far more likely to become All Whites than most of that squad, and it's partly because they've spent years working under the best youth coach in the country. Declan might piss people off, but his record is unparalleled and they trust him for a reason.

Sounds simple when you remove all context from the equation... which means everything.

A good point, perhaps we should be congratulating these players for putting their development first, not some tournament in the hope they will be better players as a result and represent their country more successfully later.

The context is a quarterfinal playing for wests verses playing for their country

After watching both, the first would have been far more enjoyable.

It's always interesting when people tell others how they should think and behave, especially without knowing all the facts. It's certainly a very tricky situation and reflective of NZ Football as a whole, ie lots of people all doing their own thing and refusing to acknowledge that collaboration and compromise might be a way forward.

Also worth noting the likes of Thomas and Rojas played little or no age group football for NZ and it's not harmed their careers or development 

not in all cases - context around McCowatt was that he got a 3 month contract with Sparta Rotterdam, now should he say no I've got to go and play a tournament in Tahiti or try and take my chance to make it as a pro?

Rojas played in both 2011 OFC U20 Championship and 2011 FIFA U20 World Cup.

Ryan Thomas played in both 2013 OFC U20 Championship and 2013 FIFA U20 World Cup. Was signed by Zwolle 2 months later.

Nope, playing age group football didn't seem to harm his career.

Well worth noting.

kids these days are totally lacking the moral fiber that i know i also didn't have at the same age

It's a really tough question. I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer but I think you have to take each individual case on it's merits.

People are still making assumptions on why some players pulled out without knowing any of the facts. You have to be a little naive to think the Wests boys decision was solely around the Chatham Cup games.

I'm pretty sure commitments to US colleges and European clubs would have been made weeks or even months before the U20's had their camps, trials and teams picked for Tahiti.

If your aim is to win games, at any level, you have to select your best team. But you can't make players go if they (or those advising them) believe it would be detrimental to their goal of gaining a scholarship or professional contract somewhere which would allow them to push higher than an U20 call up.

The players in the USA college system that went to the camp and Tahiti all had to sacrifice their pre season games and preparation to play for NZ. That would have been a risk for sure for those trying to get game time in very competitive rosters. this effected Bell, Schnell, Spragg. 

I agree on your point about no right or wrong answer. My inherent feeling is the pro players like Woud in Holland made wise decisions, but the local club players I see a little differently. but we all have opinions and in the fullness of time we will see how the NZ coaches and system saw these decisions.

Anyone know which players were selected to replace the Wests and Nix players who didn't go?

BTW, the Nix two were fully unavailable, and the Wests' ones, unavailable until August 4th. Player decision (and not club, Edge etc) in all cases.

The two Centre backs ,Tipelu and Botica came in the day before the camp, and performed very well playing all the games. 

Akers, Conroy, Elliott, Zwetsloot were reserves for the camp, and were called in when the others left.

Just noting for the record that while this would have been a very good reason not to go to Tahiti, this wasn't the reason given.

#wrongtypeoffootball ?

thats hardly surprising, given it was likely contract talks would have been going on at the time, can't announce anything before its signed

I ranked Conroy 1, Elliot 2, Tipelu 5 and Zweetsloot 7 out of the 16 outfielders. Selectors ranked them 11 to 16, looks like.

Thought Botica was sound but too many long balls, losing possession. Fixable.

Wonder why Curry got so little game time, if he was an initial selection. Played well when he got the chance. 

Conroy looked good, especially considering he is coming back from injury. His pace could be a real assett.

I also like Zweetsloot - seemd to have an edge about him the others did not, the benefit of being in a professional environment perhaps. So when is the tournament a proper?

23 May to 15 June next year in Poland.