New Zealand U-23s - Quali Whites
Let's hope that NZF move quickly and give Des the contract he deserves. His record speaks for itself, and it would be a real shame to lose him after the progress he made with this squad.
Let's hope that NZF move quickly and give Des the contract he deserves. His record speaks for itself, and it would be a real shame to lose him after the progress he made with this squad.
Danny and the National staff will fill these positions. Danny won't want to miss out on an opportunity to go to the Olympic games!!
What will it mean?
More Eastern Suburbs staff,
More Sacred Heart / Suburbs players and Less Onehunga Sports players,
Hopefully some of the twenty or so American University players back here now that have been overlooked.
Hopefully some of the twenty or so American University players back here now that have been overlooked.
Who are you thinking of?
I recall Des looked at many from the College system, had players like Alex Grieve in camp, Billy Jones who made it, Dylan de Jong , Dane Schnell, Hunter Ashworth and of course Joe Bell. Troy Tapsel was due in camp but got injured. These are off the top of my head. Boyd Currie too I think I recall and Jackson Brady, Seth Clarke and of course Noah Billingsley.
I think the logistics made it hard and some came back from the USA to play national league to get a better chance, de Jong and Schnell were two of those and Woolridge maybe too.
I think the 20s and 23s did themselves and the coaching staff proud, and were a delight to watch IMHO .
Boom...Enough said. Danny working his egotistical magic!!
Fudge NZF, just fudge them. That Buckingham coached side played the best football i have seen from any age group AW team in my nearly 60 years of watching Kiwi football. Not only that they were clearly encouraged to play positive on the front foot football based around technique and skill. They played the sort of football I had been waiting literally decades to see.
Now they switch out the coach who had produced that quality? Replaced him with Danny Hay?
Fudge NZ Football, they can go get fudgeed. Hope you cods at NZF read this. Fudgeing morons.
Fudge NZF, just fudge them. That Buckingham coached side played the best football i have seen from any age group AW team in my nearly 60 years of watching Kiwi football. Not only that they were clearly encouraged to play positive on the front foot football based around technique and skill. They played the sort of football I had been waiting literally decades to see.
Now they switch out the coach who had produced that quality? Replaced him with Danny Hay?
Fudge NZ Football, they can go get fudgeed. Hope you cods at NZF read this. Fudgeing morons.
don't usually fully agree with AlfStamp but came on here to post somthing about the whole Buckingham situation and this pretty much sums up how I feel about it. Yet again NZF screwing it up, just like they did after 82, 90's employing Joe McGrath, Picking Anfony ahead of Ramon, looking after the old boys. And for those that have been saying its a financial thing - remember Buckingham spent his own money to scout and contact NZ U20 players around the world, pretty sure he would have been amiable to a deferred payment plan for wages.
When Newshub broke the story (Friday 3rd April) we were told the reason was financial. However now it’s down to being in Hay’s contract that he takes over on the 1st September. Why wasn’t this the reason given from the start? Is it being pulled out now because the financial excuse fell flat when FIFA and the NZOC through the Government were given money to help with COViD staff salaries etc. Plus from what I hear the coaching staff said they would continue to do their roles for free. So in that case did they need another excuse, hence Hays contract? Considering that the next U23 cycle won’t start until 2023 for Paris 2024 and Hay’s AW contract is till 2022 seems weird that that start date is there but if it is and all legit why didn’t NZF just say that from the start. Would have been transparent and pretty clear cut if that was the case. Doesn’t look good hence the strong anti-feeling on social media towards NZF and the decision.
Maybe SKY can replay those games from the U20s on a continuous loop on one of their channels - so that fans can feel good again about watching a NZ team, and NZF can have a constant reminder of exactly what this action means for them, us, and our football future...
Can someone remind me of Danny's senior coaching pedigree - Sacred Heart NOT included? Seems the football community got caught up on the Name Danny Hay as ' football player' NZF CEO included. When, IMO, to be employed as a senior Men's team Head Coach you definitely need some miles under your belt...Something Danny hasn't got!! and it is showing!!!
He was alway going to take over the Olywhites 'Covid or not'.
Coaching career seems pretty limited..
from Sacred Heart he took the U-19 secondary schools team to the UK for a 5 match tour - april-may 2013
then moved to Eastern suburbs in IPS Handa which the won in 2019.
in between that he was named NZ U-17coach and took them to the 2015 U-17 World Cup where they qualified for the round of 16.
then he gets the main NZ job.
for mine - that's not exactly a great C.V.
He's had limited success with a couple of local teams and a couple of school-boy teams.
As per a post above, if this is true should have been communicated when the Olympics postponement was first announced. Why wait 5 extra weeks.
NZF know that Buckingham is popular with the both players and the football public. A PR fudge up waiting this long.
When will they learn.
Fudge NZ Football, fudge Danny Hay. Don't see how they can do this then say with a straight face that they have the best interests of football in NZ at heart. So, in other words, doing what they do best.
Hope the players refuse to play for Danny and make NZF look bloody stupid, its about time they saw some actual consequences.
Really feel for Des, Miyazawa and the others caught up in this sharkshow.
Wanted Bucko to stay, but can see some of the reasoning from NZF.
It will be interesting to see where he goes to now, surely he has had enough of NZF.
I can't help but feel this was always going to happen! Danny was always threatened by Des, and NZF were blinded by the thought of bringing in an ex all white as head coach! Danny has gone about systematically undermining Des's roles at NZF to force him out... got rid of him as assistant and brought in a bunch of mates, now he gets to go to another showpiece event which he didn't do the hard yards to qualify for!
Has any of the journos managed to get Des's take on things yet or are they going to let Danny and Pragnell dominate the conversation. I see that apparently Danny feels sorry for Des... what's he going to say... "I was desperate to get rid of him, felt threatened by him and really fancied an olympics".
As for the financial excuse... there's no chance it stacks up... All coaches (including Des) offered to work for free/ go on furlough for a period of time to get to go to an olympics that they helped qualify for!
Jeez.. just when I thought Tiger King Joe Exotic would be the biggest f'*k up I saw this year NZF manage to raise the stakes again
So Danny is going to be all good using those players who put their name to the letter about Des staying. Yeah right. Just don't get the love for Hay NZF shooting its self in the foot again.
Really don't see Hay being able to produce a team that plays the way Des had those guys going. Hope im wrong but just cant see it.
Would much rather it been the other way got rid of Hay and given Des the All Whites as well.
by the sounds of it almost the entire olywhites squad put their names to the letter that NZF completely ignored. No doubt Hay has a copy of it and is plotting the demise of players' careers.
So Danny is going to be all good using those players who put their name to the letter about Des staying. Yeah right. Just don't get the love for Hay NZF shooting its self in the foot again.
Really don't see Hay being able to produce a team that plays the way Des had those guys going. Hope im wrong but just cant see it.
Would much rather it been the other way got rid of Hay and given Des the All Whites as well.
What did he add when coaching Declan's (Western) Eastern Subs team?
I guess that is why they did not make their names public on it, as they had that inherent fear that this would happen. they have all been around local football long enough to know the personalities involved and they would all have aspirations no doubt that could be damaged as you say if known. How sad that a letter supporting a great coach can then be used to say we don't support his replacement, when it was a ringing endorsement for a man who had gained such respect and loyalty.
A number of things for me
1. "In that regard, on a personal level, I’m gutted for Des, so I understand that reaction on a personal level, but I think most people will appreciate the strategic opportunity and that this is something that needed to happen." - well If Pragnell read what NZF stakeholders are saying across social media, I don’t think they do appreciate the strategic opportunity. You might want to make it clearer for them because they don’t get it (unless that’s the strategy to undo all the good work and set us backwards again)
2. "But we have to put the organisation, the team and the players first and make sure they get the best outcome” - hmmm by totally ignoring and making no mention of the players letter ?
3. There will be a cross over of players between the All Whites and 23’s. Well there were 9 for the games against Ireland B & Lithuania and they were not great games to watch no matter how they tried to sell them.
You can give me all the ingredients for a Michelin Star meal but there is no chance that’s how it’s going to come out. Give it to an expert chef on the other hand.....
4. I would be worried if one of the strong Island nations got a hold of Des. The natural athletic ability, technical quality and unpredictability within a structured in and out of possession structure, that scares me no end. I certainly would not be wanting to go to Honiara or Port Villa and facing that. Anyone remember the last 17’s v Solomon’s group game.?
Another dark day in the history of NZF.
NZF - fudgeing things up since before being formed.
Really feel for Des. He's done tremendously well in every environment he's found himself in both at club and NT level.
Really thought of him as someone who was being groomed for the future and who would do nz proud in the times to come (notwithstanding all the good work he has already accomplished) but I can't see him wanting to stick around this ungrateful bunch of morons much longer
Y'all need to relax
Y'all need to relax
Y'all need to relax
Fatherhood has really mellowed you.
Y'all need to relax
Fatherhood has really mellowed you.
take that back! :)
So much respect that 14 players who failed to make the final U20 World Cup squad came back into camp from around the country for 5 days, taking time away from their jobs, study and families to help prepare the 10 New Zealand based players who were flying out at the end of the week (Phoenix boys were’t in camp or overseas pros). Players I know would have said f**k Des, f**k NZF, f**k the player who has my position. 14 players who had only 2 weeks earlier been given the news they weren’t going to Poland came back into the environment to continue the journey they had been apart of. That is testament to the level of respect, coaching, environment and feeling of whanau Des had created
this is beyond depressing - we have chances and we blow them as if we're making an effort to have absolutely zero conventional wisdom
Just wondering... Who do we expect to ask probing questions of NZF in situations like this? When the journalists interview pragnell, boyens, hay etc do they ask questions or do they just let them talk and give their messages
Reason I ask is surely there's some things that both spoke about today that deserve greater scrutiny? Hay mentioned that he hasn't spoken to Des in the last five weeks but will reach out in the coming days? So they've cancelled Des contract already but haven't organised any handing over of data, notes, IP?
Hay mentioned that the letter was just players being scared about being dropped by him moving forward... Does he not believe that it's due to the environment Des created and how does he think players will react that their support is viewed as self interest?
Do they think strategic alignment would have been better served allowing Des to stay on as assistant allwhites coach and head of the olywhotes similar to the herbert/ emblem arrangement?
What has happened to the other roles Des was employed in? He has been travelling the country working with the feds looking at coach education, youth development etc?
With the loss of Des, who is qualified to run the a licence course in NZ now?
Did they claim a wage subsidy for Des and why did they initially say the move was financial when it clearly never was according to pragnell?
Be interested to know if any of these were asked!
The one excuse NZF/Hay have to make a coaching change for the Olympics, is that next year there is no Confeds Cup. Always a useful comp for the AWs (when they qualify), given they so seldom get to play top drawer teams.
I presume Hay will now be looking to use the Olympics, as a some sort of AWs prep for the anticipated March 2022 Intercontinental Playoffs (providing yes AWs finish top dog in OFC). That's based on his Nov 2019 AWs squad having a large number of players eligible for the Olympics (9 of the 23?), plus being able to pick 3 over age players. So potentially a good basis of his first choice squad come March 2022, can get quality games together as a unit at the Olympics.
This would have been part of the rationale to ditch Buckingham. At least in NZF's eyes.
Still there is no guarantee, all those 9 U23 (effectively U24 now) age grade players will be available for Toyko. Postponed Olympics are now scheduled for July 23 – August 8 next year. That's very close to the start of the 2021/2022 European season, and typically about mid point of the MLS. The big Euro clubs I understand pay scant regard to the Olympics football tournament. Also the dates are not in a FIFA window?? Will Bayern release Singh? Ditto Viking FC and Bell? Cacace is likely to be in Europe by then. And yeah will be mid season stateside.
Could be a whole host of players unavailable. So any thinking of a useful de facto AWs side, going to the Olympics, may just blow up in smoke.
Really I have no strong view on whether Buckingham is a better coach than Hay, or heaven forbid vice versa.
Des did a great job with U20s, but he did have a lot of contact time/camps with the core of that group (who at the time were primarily NZ based), going back to U19 qualifying in the Islands, plus visiting the Phoenix and Eastern Suburbs regularly in the leadup to Poland - so touching base constantly with Waine, Singh, Cacace, Stensness, Elliott, McCowatt, Just, Pijnaker, Wilkins etc. Reinforcing how he was looking to play, and their roles in the U20 team etc etc. Only Woud, Stanger and Bell were based overseas back then - of the side that started against Colombia in the round of 16.
Also from memory they had a few weeks together pre the U20 WC starting, and some warmup games. Lastly the core of the side, were from two clubs (Nix and ES) only, so combinations were well bedded in.
So feel you can't really fairly compare the performance of that side (fantastic as it was), verus what Hay's AWs put out late last year. Against Lithuania they were esp awful, but better in glimpses against Ireland. But they had what, a few days together prior each game. A couple of training sessions at best. Many of them would have been complete strangers to each other. Came from all parts of the world, with a new coach, and the top players had't worn an AWs strip since Peru in 2017 - 2 years prior. Comparing those games to U20s is a definitely a green apple and red tomato scenario.
So at this juncture as yet it's very early days on Hay.
However there are things about Danny, going way back that just make him a trifle unlikable. And the sniff that he's done some dirty deeds here to get rid of Des, doesn't help at all. Hay has a big PR problem, and NZF have fudgeed up again by waiting 5 extra weeks post news of the Olympic postponement, to reveal Buckingham has been dropped.
On the other hand Des seems a hell of a nice guy. The stories of him spending his own money to scout players overseas. The one that he cancelled short his trip back home to the UK, to hurriedly return to NZ to coach the U23s once Schmid left. The fact that 10 odd players who weren't selected for the U20 WC in Poland (so presumably were massively disappointed/down), still came in to provide opposed training sessions prior to the team leaving for Europe. The fact that it appears he was possibly willing to work for free in the leadup to Tokyo. These stories can only make you admire the man. He appears to have mana, in buckets.
If Hay wanted to badly go to the Olympics. He should have gone as an observer/assistant coach.
Des deserved a shark load better. Shame on you NZF.
The fact that it appears he was possibly willing to work for free in the leadup to Tokyo. These stories can only make you admire the man
Excellent analysis Andrew! I would add that Des personally phoned every player who was involved in the lead up which if I recall was a large number to tell them they were in and those who were not, and reason for this. This was quite unusual as previously emails/txts seemed the order of the day. Perhaps this personal touch added to his mana and those 10 who came back had such respect for that?
I would also agree with your views on the 20s being together more etc, but what he achieved with the 23s was remarkable given they were thrown together at very short notice, and were a much wider group and many uncapped at age group level. This in itself speaks to his coaching ability, and Miya who assisted him. That win in the senior pacific games was right up there as previous All White sides had struggled in the islands before to achieve results,
Yipe the stuff he achieved with the U23s including going toe to toe with the Olyroos (which seemed to really surprise the Aus football fraternity) - in some ways is more impressive than what he did with the U20s.
I see someone suggested him for the vacant job at Adelaide. Who knows! Good luck to him, where ever he ends up.
I think there is going to a little more on this during the week. One question I would like the media to ask Andrew Pragnell is why on the 3rd April did he say that the reason was financial and not that it was in Danny’s contract. Would have been transparent and clear cut and although disappointing for Des would have been a clear decision. Instead there are a lot of holes and questions in the timeline from then to now.
Pragnell says that Des knew from the start of the covid crisis. The only thing we have heard from Des was that this is false and he learned of it on the 20th April. It it happened at the start (I think a date of 26 March was given in one of the interviews on Friday) why was the reason given as financial almost a week and a half into lockdown. We then hear nothing from NZF between the interview on the 3rd April and the press release on Thursday 30th April.
During this time a number of things we do know have happened.
1. Financial support from FIFA, Govt to NZOC and it being said that staff said they would work for free. This then nullifies any issue around finances.
2. A letter from 24 of the U23 Olympic players is sent to NZF to reconsider and try and find a solution. No real acknowledgement of this in the media from NZF. Technically Pragnell is in a job because 12 players presented NZF an ultimatum of either them or Andreas Heraf. I have been told by a player that the letter on Thursday evening that was sent to the players about the decision made no mention of their letter and their concerns.
Was the change in reason given by Pragnell on the 30th to the one given on the 3rd due to:
1. Forgetting what he had already said 3 weeks earlier?
2. Forgetting the actual reason when asked on the 3rd April and just throwing out finance as being the reason?
3. Was the response on the 3rd an attempt by him at SARCASIM?
4. Due to the original reason given appearing now null and void, an alternative reason needed to be found? Is the Ink dry yet?
Too many things don’t sit right about this whole situation and looking at the feelings across social media most football people are not happy with what has happened and some serious question and answers are needed so we can move on.
I think there is going to a little more on this during the week. One question I would the media to ask Andrew Pragnell is why on the 3rd April did he say that the reason was financial and not that it was in Danny’s contract. Would have been transparent and clear cut and although disappointing for Des would have been a clear decision. Instead there are a lot of holes and questions in the timeline from then to now.
Pragnell says that Des knew from the start of the covid crisis. The only thing we have heard from Des was that this is false and he learned of it on the 20th April. It it happened at the start (I think a date of 26 March was given in one of the interviews on Friday) why was the reason given as financial almost a week and a half into lockdown. We then hear nothing from NZF between the interview on the 3rd April and the press release on Thursday 30th April.
During this time a number of things we do know have happened.
1. Financial support from FIFA, Govt to NZOC and it being said that staff said they would work for free. This then nullifies any issue around finances.
2. A letter from 24 of the U23 Olympic players is sent to NZF to reconsider and try and find a solution. No real acknowledgement of this in the media from NZF. Technically Pragnell is in a job because 12 players presented NZF an ultimatum of either them or Andreas Heraf. I have been told by a player that the letter on Thursday evening that was sent to the players about the decision made no mention of their letter and their concerns.
Was the change in reason given by Pragnell on the 30th to the one given on the 3rd due to:
1. Forgetting what he had already said 3 weeks earlier?
2. Forgetting the actual reason when asked on the 3rd April and just throwing out finance as being the reason?
3. Was the response on the 3rd an attempt by him at SARCASIM?
4. Due to the original reason given appearing now null and void, an alternative reason needed to be found? Is the Ink dry yet?
Too many things don’t sit right about this whole situation and looking at the feelings across social media most football people are not happy with what has happened and some serious question and answers are needed so we can move on.
All valid questions, but you seem to not understand how this works.
There will be no further comment on this matter from NZF.
They're conducting another review; and "looking forward" to the resumption of football at all levels.
This is how it will play out.