are you counting the competing club in the 9? as don't think Nix are in the mix?
WeeNix - NZ National League
CWC money is $USD500k for each game
It's split 50% to competing club
10% to NZF
the remaining 40% goes to the other 9 clubs (or Franchises if you prefer)
So each club gets about $30k (NZD) each
$30k wouldn't get you that far away would it? Some of these professional players coaches are on a lot more than that allegedly.
Which brings me to the original point in this conversation - what are expectations for the league and, if we disregard the idea of a development league, how much can we expect from a bunch of 'amateurs'?
I don't have the answer, but I think this is good debate as we're talking about the national league and the more we can do to make it sustainable/popular/competitive, the better for all of us!
are you counting the competing club in the 9? as don't think Nix are in the mix?
I did but think you may be right but am not sure on how the Nix deal works but even if they don't get any CWC money thats only another $5k or so for the clubs
CWC money is $USD500k for each game
It's split 50% to competing club
10% to NZF
the remaining 40% goes to the other 9 clubs (or Franchises if you prefer)
So each club gets about $30k (NZD) each
$30k wouldn't get you that far away would it? Some of these professional players coaches are on a lot more than that allegedly.
Which brings me to the original point in this conversation - what are expectations for the league and, if we disregard the idea of a development league, how much can we expect from a bunch of 'amateurs'?
I don't have the answer, but I think this is good debate as we're talking about the national league and the more we can do to make it sustainable/popular/competitive, the better for all of us!
If you consider that some clubs get significant money from gaming trusts, plus have generally been able to rely on 50% of CWC money, then paying some of their players decent coin isn't exactly shocking.
For others though, $50k goes a long way to making them compete in the league; take that away, and it gets a lot tougher for a number of them.
And on the WeeNix thing, yeah I'm pretty sure they don't get a slice of the CWC money.
CWC money is $USD500k for each game
It's split 50% to competing club
10% to NZF
the remaining 40% goes to the other 9 clubs (or Franchises if you prefer)
So each club gets about $30k (NZD) each
$30k wouldn't get you that far away would it? Some of these professional players coaches are on a lot more than that allegedly.
Which brings me to the original point in this conversation - what are expectations for the league and, if we disregard the idea of a development league, how much can we expect from a bunch of 'amateurs'?
I don't have the answer, but I think this is good debate as we're talking about the national league and the more we can do to make it sustainable/popular/competitive, the better for all of us!
If you consider that some clubs get significant money from gaming trusts, plus have generally been able to rely on 50% of CWC money, then paying some of their players decent coin isn't exactly shocking.
For others though, $50k goes a long way to making them compete in the league; take that away, and it gets a lot tougher for a number of them.
[b]And on the WeeNix thing, yeah I'm pretty sure they don't get a slice of the CWC money.[/b]
It can’t and won’t ever be a pinnacle league without a pyramid and pro/rel.
Problem is creating that structure would see (even more than now) stoopid and pokie money thrown at never-going-to-make-it-anywhere-else-players.
If it’s a development league, why play so many journeymen; it’s already one of the oldest leagues in the world.
So don’t really see how “where all whites are made” fits with all the ineligible and/or old players still kicking around in it.
But that would take someone with a Vision for the national league at NZF and the Feds.
I’m not holding my breath.
Some stats from last season that seem relevant. I have some thoughts as to what they tell us about the usefulness of WeeNix and what kind of league we have, but I'll see what others think first.
There were 46 players born in 1999, 2000 or 2001 - ie eligible for 2018 U-20 World Cup (though not all are NZers).
12 players played more than half a season's worth of minutes (810).
Eight played for Phoenix reserves - Ollie Whyte, Sam Philip, Willem Ebbinge, Liberato Cacace, Sam Sutton, Liam Moore, Ben Waine, Jake Williams.
The other four were Callum McCowatt (AC), Max Mata (ES), Kelvin Kalua (ES), Callan Elliot (TU).
Six players played more than a quarter a season's worth of minutes (405).
Two played for Phoenix reserves - Luke Tongue (also Canterbury United) and Kurtis Mogg.
The others were Leon van den Hoven (ES), Jorge Akers (HBU), Steffano Riley (HW) and Karan Mandair (HBU).
28 players played less than a quarter a season's worth of minutes.
Nine played for Phoenix reserves.
There were 32 players born in 1997 and 1998 - ie eligible for the Tokyo Olympics, along with those born after them (though not all are NZers).
Eight players played more than half a season's worth of minutes (810).
One played for Phoenix reserves - Liam Wood (also Team Wellington)
The other seven were Moses Dyer (ES), Sean Liddicoat (CU), Hayden McHenery (HBU), Liam Hayes (HBU/HW), Tinashe Marowa (TU/HBU) and Jack-Henry Sinclair (TW).
Seven players played more than quarter a season's worth of minutes (405).
They were Hamish Cotter (SU), Raheem Hunter (HW), Matt Tod-Smith (TU), Ben Wade (SU), Yousif Ali (TU), Mackenzie Waite (HBU), Reese Cox (ES), Jordan Hearn (WU).
17 players played less than a quarter a season's worth of minutes.
One played for Phoenix reserves.
Of the 33 players across both groups who played more than a quarter a season's worth of minutes, 10 aren't with a team this year. (Liberato Cacace and Callan Elliot are now Phoenix pros; Ollie Whyte, Leon van den Hoven and Moses Dyer are pros elsewhere; Sam Philip has gone to college in the US; Jake Williams is with Team Wellington's NYL squad; Max Mata, Jordan Hearn and Raheem Hunter just aren't with anyone - though I believe Max is eyeing Europe in January).
I'd suggest only Liberato Cacace is in an improved situation, and even then, only just, depending whether his omission from the first team last time out becomes a regular thing.
Bonus - there was one player apiece born in 2002 and 2003 (ie eligible for the 2018 U-17 World Cup).
Sunday 25th November 3 pm they take on Auckland City at Wgtn's best little Stadium ground.
David Farrington Park will welcome Both Teams
Come along and look how they compete for yourself
I think the rest of the ISPS teams see a easy 3 points.
Already for 3 pm ko at David Farmington Park
so Singh is playing - seems to have got on Rudans bad side..
Lost 3-0 to Auckland City today. Singh, Cacace, and Fenton all played.
Like Canterbury the other week they were the better team for the first 45. Even the goal came from a clear foul ignored by the officials.
Second half Auckland settled more and were the better side.
Like Canterbury the other week they were the better team for the first 45. Even the goal came from a clear foul ignored by the officials.
Second half Auckland settled more and were the better side.
what foul?
Don't agree that the Weenix were better in the first 45, Auckland had more possession and the game was played in the Weenix's half. Given the pros that were in the team I thought it was a disappointing performance from the Weenix
Arguably more pros in the acfc side
so Singh is playing - seems to have got on Rudans bad side..
Here’s Mark Rudan on why Sarpreet Singh wasn’t in the @WgtnPhoenixFC A-League squad last night. Worth remembering that he had the only shot on target in their previous game. Baffled as to where this has come from based on in-game efforts.
— Andrew Voerman (@andrewvoerman) November 25, 2018
Arguably more pros in the acfc side
Yawn
sponsored by VUW?
Honestly, there seems to be an increasing mood in NZ football fandom that the Nix are a lost cause and we should be concentrating on making the HandyPrem a Propah Nawty Club-Based Pro/Rel National League.
Australia had one of those, it was called the NSL, it failed. The half-baked franchise-based "amateur" league we have now is barely financially sustainable. Honestly I think a lot of people who say this are expat Brits (or people whose footballing hearts are in Britain, anyway) who have not fully incorporated that Aotearoa is a very different country.
yet we are the same as Australia? Righto
In fact, the problem is stronger in NZ than in Australia, because the market is even smaller, and (with very few exceptions) we don't have the fanatical following of "effnick" clubs.
I don't know of a single person who thinks a pro league in NZ is feasible. Clearly you hang in different circles
Maybe I'm hallucinating but I'm pretty sure I saw several of them upthread from here
A pro-league would only exist on pokie money (not guaranteed), and large junior systems supporting big clubs... the latter being a complete waste of money and a case of terribly prioritised cash.
Football in NZ would do far better investing in competent youth coaches and youth systems than paying relative crap players and foreigners to be pro.
Wasn't the whole argument of the "ACFC Knitting Circle" based on the idea that people like WelNix should be pouring money into making a local semi-pro league sustainable rather than putting a team in an "Aussie league"? Here - as in the debate of whether the Nix should have "bigger-spending owners" - the belief that there are such deep-pocketed football-tragic millionaires out there and we just need to invite them seems like a curious urban legend.
I of course hold the opposite belief - that there should be a much lower cap on player payments which should help an amateur national league become more sustainable.
I should also add that the top-level (NPL) state leagues in Australia also include the reserve teams of A-League sides.
A pro-league would only exist on pokie money (not guaranteed), and large junior systems supporting big clubs... the latter being a complete waste of money and a case of terribly prioritised cash.
Football in NZ would do far better investing in competent youth coaches and youth systems than paying relative crap players and foreigners to be pro.
I don't think you can use pokie money on a pro league.
There's certainly enough cash sloshing around in NZ football if you include the tournaments and under the table stuff that goes on, to sustain a semi-pro league. The problem is that a lot of these structures are outside of NZF jurisdiction and they've got very little interest in it at all.
There's certainly enough cash sloshing around in NZ football if you include the tournaments and under the table stuff that goes on, to sustain a semi-pro league. The problem is that a lot of these structures are outside of NZF jurisdiction and they've got very little interest in it at all.
You mean if everyone worked together rather than protecting their own little patch things might be better? Unfortunately too many self-important, egotistical clowns out there spending money to inflate their own egos
This is the basis of most competitive sport worldwide
Usually done with more purpose than to pay some 3rd rate footballers to play in an amateur league with no prizemoney, with pretty much zero ROI
There's certainly enough cash sloshing around in NZ football if you include the tournaments and under the table stuff that goes on, to sustain a semi-pro league. The problem is that a lot of these structures are outside of NZF jurisdiction and they've got very little interest in it at all.
You mean if everyone worked together rather than protecting their own little patch things might be better? Unfortunately too many self-important, egotistical clowns out there spending money to inflate their own egos
We've got the seventh oldest national association in the world, but some of the better attended games I've been to in this country haven't been NZF tournaments or leagues - and a lot of those people don't go to National League games etc
There's certainly enough cash sloshing around in NZ football if you include the tournaments and under the table stuff that goes on, to sustain a semi-pro league. The problem is that a lot of these structures are outside of NZF jurisdiction and they've got very little interest in it at all.
You mean if everyone worked together rather than protecting their own little patch things might be better? Unfortunately too many self-important, egotistical clowns out there spending money to inflate their own egos
We've got the seventh oldest national association in the world, but some of the better attended games I've been to in this country haven't been NZF tournaments or leagues - and a lot of those people don't go to National League games etc
Gisborne City's Eddie Simpson tackles Christchurch United's midfielder Brian Hardman during a national league match at Childers Road in Gisborne in August 1973. The national league existed between 1970 and 1992, and Gisborne City was a surprisingly successful team. Although Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch teams tended to dominate, Gisborne City put together a very creditable side which won the league in 1983. As this image shows, crowds of over 3,000 were regularly attracted to watch the team which, under the leadership of player and coach Steve Sumner, also won the 1987 Chatham Cup.
There's certainly enough cash sloshing around in NZ football if you include the tournaments and under the table stuff that goes on, to sustain a semi-pro league. The problem is that a lot of these structures are outside of NZF jurisdiction and they've got very little interest in it at all.
You mean if everyone worked together rather than protecting their own little patch things might be better? Unfortunately too many self-important, egotistical clowns out there spending money to inflate their own egos
We've got the seventh oldest national association in the world, but some of the better attended games I've been to in this country haven't been NZF tournaments or leagues - and a lot of those people don't go to National League games etc
Gisborne City's Eddie Simpson tackles Christchurch United's midfielder Brian Hardman during a national league match at Childers Road in Gisborne in August 1973. The national league existed between 1970 and 1992, and Gisborne City was a surprisingly successful team. Although Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch teams tended to dominate, Gisborne City put together a very creditable side which won the league in 1983. As this image shows, crowds of over 3,000 were regularly attracted to watch the team which, under the leadership of player and coach Steve Sumner, also won the 1987 Chatham Cup.
would be fantastic to get crowds like that again but pretty sure Balbi was talking about today not 45 years ago!
Usually done with more purpose than to pay some 3rd rate footballers to play in an amateur league with no prizemoney, with pretty much zero ROI
One of the brilliant things about the English Premier League is that it has grown elite football in England by using the money of others; i.e.those that have a whole lot of spare cash to throw around.
In New Zealand, we have the opposite. The Federations have too much control and it is very difficult for rich individuals to invest in a vanity project and thus expand the pool of money that circulates through the sport.
If someone wants to invest their hard earned excess cash in propelling a small seaside club to the brink of the national league and chatham cup, then that's fine by me.
Sometimes the notion of competition, achievement and superiority matter more than ROI. Competition drove our old national league to a really high standard
As a side note, it's not all about player payments, the present structure also prevents organizations who want to invest in facilities, management and infrastructure from reaching the elite level as well.
I have to keep going back to the point that as far as I can see, backing the Nix as a project and aiming for a competitive, semi-pro NZ National League are mutually exclusive. The whole reason why we were allowed the Nix (and before them the Kingz/Knights) was because we didn't have our own pro league.
And I should also point out that comparing local football crowds today with those in an era where there was no Internet, hardly any weekend shopping, and bugger-all on TV and virtually nothing else to do with weekend leisure times is completely misleading.
There's certainly enough cash sloshing around in NZ football if you include the tournaments and under the table stuff that goes on, to sustain a semi-pro league. The problem is that a lot of these structures are outside of NZF jurisdiction and they've got very little interest in it at all.
You mean if everyone worked together rather than protecting their own little patch things might be better? Unfortunately too many self-important, egotistical clowns out there spending money to inflate their own egos
We've got the seventh oldest national association in the world, but some of the better attended games I've been to in this country haven't been NZF tournaments or leagues - and a lot of those people don't go to National League ISPS Handa Premiership games etc
Gisborne City's Eddie Simpson tackles Christchurch United's midfielder Brian Hardman during a national league match at Childers Road in Gisborne in August 1973. The national league existed between 1970 and 1992, and Gisborne City was a surprisingly successful team. Although Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch teams tended to dominate, Gisborne City put together a very creditable side which won the league in 1983. As this image shows, crowds of over 3,000 were regularly attracted to watch the team which, under the leadership of player and coach Steve Sumner, also won the 1987 Chatham Cup.
would be fantastic to get crowds like that again but pretty sure Balbi was talking about today not 45 years ago!
I have to keep going back to the point that as far as I can see, backing the Nix as a project and aiming for a competitive, semi-pro NZ National League are mutually exclusive. The whole reason why we were allowed the Nix (and before them the Kingz/Knights) was because we didn't have our own pro league.
And I should also point out that comparing local football crowds today with those in an era where there was no Internet, hardly any weekend shopping, and bugger-all on TV and virtually nothing else to do with weekend leisure times is completely misleading.
Who's being misleading? We're just talking about crowds
Something wrong with the links on this forum.
Could have sworn I clicked on the link that should have taken me to discussion about the Weenix ISPS Handa premiership side, but there's only one post in the past 20 that even hints at them in passing.
why are the in league ASB team should be in the NYL ..
Just makes a joke of the league
why are the in league ASB team should be in the NYL ..
Just makes a joke of the league
jesus not this again.
How does it make a joke of the league? cuz there is a weak team? What does that make any other competition where there is a weak team - what about last year when they didn't even finish bottom?