No one is saying Ole is blameless though?
Ian Wright doesn't know shark though lol, have you read/listened to him lately?
Manchester United (Part 2)
Ole has come in for criticism in the last few weeks from RVP,Gary Neville,Berbatov, Scholes,Roy Keane, Rio F to name a few. Plus of course people like Martin Keown and Ian Wright.
All these people know nothing about football.
As Nelfoos says, no one thinks Ole is blameless. But the intentions and direction is better than the last 3 managers and actually fits United. It's hard to measure his execution on those with such a dire squad while he's also succeeding with players like AWB, James, Williams, etc. Imagine if we could sprinkle them with a world class midfielder...
It also makes me laugh when the team plays well, it's not thanks to Ole it's "because the players stepped up". But when the team plays poorly, after a busy period with a stupidly thin squad, it's "because Ole is naive" lmao
Ole has come in for criticism in the last few weeks from RVP,Gary Neville,Berbatov, Scholes,Roy Keane, Rio F to name a few. Plus of course people like Martin Keown and Ian Wright.
All these people know nothing about football.
I can see you are taking differing opinions very well.
Most of the criticism has been about things that he is not responsible for, so is pretty narrow minded and isolates individual issues. But if you want to listen to what most of these people are saying, the main ideas are that he needs to be given a squad of players that he is happy with in order to perform and time to show that he can get them to perform. Most of those people are primarily criticising the club as a whole.
I know for the majority of the season he has been saying (as he needs to externally) say that he is happy with his squad and we are improving blah blah blah. But if you look at the actions of the club you will see that they are looking for a striker, they are looking for a CM or two, and they are looking for players that are young and who fit the direction he wants to go in. And they have slowly been getting rid of those that are not up to it.
If you think that changing a manager will help, then you only have the last 6 years to show you it doesn't help and that the clubs who have had consistent managers / club strategies are the ones that are doing the best.
On a slightly different note, Tranmere beat Watford 2-1 in the FA Cup this morning so we've got an away trip to an absolute paddock to play them on Monday morning.
Last thing a team already struggling with injury issues needs, their pitch looks in an absolute state from what I've seen. Hopefully a good runout for some of the kids.
On a slightly different note, Tranmere beat Watford 2-1 in the FA Cup this morning so we've got an away trip to an absolute paddock to play them on Monday morning.
Last thing a team already struggling with injury issues needs, their pitch looks in an absolute state from what I've seen. Hopefully a good runout for some of the kids.
That’s got upset written all over it.
And the same people that were moaning that Ole wasn’t rotating in the Cups will complain when the players don’t perform!
A club in disarray
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/01/23/manchester-united-club-knees-can-fix/
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/ed-woodward-glazers-were-sucked-21346755
Out of the other 3: one doesn't even have a name put to it so its 98% guaranteed to be completely made up, one is Paul Ince giving his reckons and one is the same idiot who reported this:
At least try and verify the shark you read on the internet before perpetuating it Leggy. Tabloid shark isn't an indicator of anything except what's gonna sell papers.
A club in disarray
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/01/23/manchester-united-club-knees-can-fix/
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/ed-woodward-glazers-were-sucked-21346755
Out of the other 3: one doesn't even have a name put to it so its 98% guaranteed to be completely made up, one is Paul Ince giving his reckons and one is the same idiot who reported this:
At least try and verify the shark you read on the internet before perpetuating it Leggy. Tabloid shark isn't an indicator of anything except what's gonna sell papers.
Ducker has two paragraphs directed at Ole. Quite ironically, in the middle of the two is a graphic which shows that Ducker thinks half the squad is questionable and/or should be gotten rid of.
Of his list of 10 "Keep" players, there's 1 centre midfielder (McTominay), the 3 Ole signings (Maguire, AWB, James), Brandon Williams, Mason Greenwood (both who Ole has so far introduced very well), 2 goal keepers, and Tuanzebe (who's been injured).
So basically everyone expects Ole to get top four results with 10 top four capable players. Nice!
Currently, I have 15 I would keep and lock up their contracts. The rest to go with any decent offer.
Keep:
De Gea (though now not as critical as Henderson will be there when he leaves)
Romero
AWB
Maguire
Lindelof
Williams
Tuanzebe
McTominay
Fred
James
Rashford
Martial
Greenwood
Pogba and Shaw should be good enough to stay, but they just keep being disappointing more frequently than not - in both attitude and ability. Most others have had their chances, or not had enough yet.
I just feel like too many people are blaming Ole (or Jose or LVG before) for things that he does not have control of or just has to deal with the bad consequences. I think people are quick to forget that the same issues have been there pretty much since 2009 and only the fact that SAF was pretty much running the club himself was minimising the impact of these issues.
Some short fun facts of since then:
- In 2006, the Glazers related loan was $660m pounds. Since then interest, fees, dividends and other loan costs of more than $1.3billion has been paid. The 2019 loan balance is still over $450m.
- In 09-10 we sold Ronaldo. We bought Valencia, Obertan, Owen and Diouf, followed by Smalling and Chicharito the next season.
- In 11-12 Scholes, Hargreaves, Brown and O'Shea left and we signed Young and Jones.
- In 14-15 Rio, Vidic, Evra, Fletcher, Nani and Chicharito left, we spent huge money on Di Maria and Falcao (plus some others that lasted a bit longer). Next season we signed Depay, Darmian, Schweiinsteiger and Schneiderlin, who are again are no longer here.
- In 18-19, after coming 2nd in the league, we bought Fred, Dalot and Grant.
As people have rightly pointed out, none of the issues are in isolation but with the hand that these owners deal to the managers, you are unlikely to do much better than a 6/10
OGS is not the cause of the problems, and neither is he the solution. Recruitment is very poor, there is literally no investment in the club (the roof at OT leaks, for instance), and the only long term plan is Ed saying there is so he can keep his job.
But.......OGS hasn't done well with the cards he has been dealt. His injury and in-game management is, at best, suspect. No one could turn Man U into a force with the conditions that we find ourselves in, but OGS also has to be accountable for his failings.
On the positive side, it does look like he has improved both Rashford and Fred.
Currently, I have 15 I would keep and lock up their contracts. The rest to go with any decent offer.
Keep:
De Gea (though now not as critical as Henderson will be there when he leaves)
Romero
AWB
Maguire
Lindelof
Williams
Tuanzebe
McTominay
Fred
James
Rashford
Martial
Greenwood
Pogba and Shaw should be good enough to stay, but they just keep being disappointing more frequently than not - in both attitude and ability. Most others have had their chances, or not had enough yet.
That post just highlights how light our midfield is, but unfortunately I can't disagree with too much there though.
Would possibly add Bailly to that squad, even with all his injuries and the fact he's held together by a band-aid. But I do think he's good enough, although if he suffers another serious injury he'll probably be jettisoned from the club too...
Add Gomes and Garner from the youth squad to bolster that midfield and then start work on reshaping the rest of the team and plugging all the gaps. Huge job ahead, and will be another tough couple of years ahead of us but unfortunately we're going to need to live with it as it's not a 1-2 season fix.
Currently, I have 15 I would keep and lock up their contracts. The rest to go with any decent offer.
Keep:
De Gea (though now not as critical as Henderson will be there when he leaves)
Romero
AWB
Maguire
Lindelof
Williams
Tuanzebe
McTominay
Fred
James
Rashford
Martial
Greenwood
Pogba and Shaw should be good enough to stay, but they just keep being disappointing more frequently than not - in both attitude and ability. Most others have had their chances, or not had enough yet.
That post just highlights how light our midfield is, but unfortunately I can't disagree with too much there though.
Would possibly add Bailly to that squad, even with all his injuries and the fact he's held together by a band-aid. But I do think he's good enough, although if he suffers another serious injury he'll probably be jettisoned from the club too...
Add Gomes and Garner from the youth squad to bolster that midfield and then start work on reshaping the rest of the team and plugging all the gaps. Huge job ahead, and will be another tough couple of years ahead of us but unfortunately we're going to need to live with it as it's not a 1-2 season fix.
More like a 4/5 season fix.
United actually aren't a five season fix. It isn't that hard to fix this squad. For instance, next season we could realistically field this starting XI:
-------De Gea---------
AWB--Maguire--Lindelof--Williams
-----McTominay---Fernandes
Rashford---Pogba---Martial
-------Jimenez------
That's a really good starting XI and should easily be top 4 if they all stay fit throughout the season.If you want to compete with Liverpool/City you will probably need a better centre back than Lindelof and better depth (you can't have Lingard coming off the bench). We can get that starting XI by signing just two players. The problem is that the club cannot identify how to properly improve the squad. Our midfield was weak last season. Then we lose Herera (our best midfielder in 18/19) and we don't even bother replacing him!
Our defence has been 4th best in the league this season. We have conceded some late goals and De Gea has had some shockers mixed in with that. Our defence is good enough. Our attack, however, is complete shark. The problem compared with Liverpool is we don't have enough goal contributions. Fred has no goals or assists this season. Our defence has only two goals this season. Lingard has no goals/assists. Periera has one goal, three assists. Mata just has a couple of assists. Our front three does okay but the rest of them just don't contribute at all. TAA has 12 assists for god's sake! I knew we would lose against Burnley because only James and Martial can score or assist. Burnley's attack was more dangerous than ours.
United actually aren't a five season fix. It isn't that hard to fix this squad. For instance, next season we could realistically field this starting XI:
-------De Gea---------
AWB--Maguire--Lindelof--Williams
-----McTominay---Fernandes
Rashford---Pogba---Martial
-------Jimenez------
That's a really good starting XI and should easily be top 4 if they all stay fit throughout the season.If you want to compete with Liverpool/City you will probably need a better centre back than Lindelof and better depth (you can't have Lingard coming off the bench). We can get that starting XI by signing just two players. The problem is that the club cannot identify how to properly improve the squad. Our midfield was weak last season. Then we lose Herera (our best midfielder in 18/19) and we don't even bother replacing him!
Our defence has been 4th best in the league this season. We have conceded some late goals and De Gea has had some shockers mixed in with that. Our defence is good enough. Our attack, however, is complete shark. The problem compared with Liverpool is we don't have enough goal contributions. Fred has no goals or assists this season. Our defence has only two goals this season. Lingard has no goals/assists. Periera has one goal, three assists. Mata just has a couple of assists. Our front three does okay but the rest of them just don't contribute at all. TAA has 12 assists for god's sake! I knew we would lose against Burnley because only James and Martial can score or assist. Burnley's attack was more dangerous than ours.
I like this - and, like you, I don't believe it has to be a multi-year fix.
Questions for you - De Gea or Dean Henderson? (also: why isn't Sergio Romero getting a run at the moment, with de Gea chucking them in?)
Your lineup has no wingers, and we only have Dan James at the moment......is there more benefit, for the current (and your projected team) to play a 3-5-2 system? With perhaps Dalot and Williams as the wingbacks, and AWB as the right side centre back.
Do you really think Pogba will be here next season?
United actually aren't a five season fix. It isn't that hard to fix this squad. For instance, next season we could realistically field this starting XI:
-------De Gea---------
AWB--Maguire--Lindelof--Williams
-----McTominay---Fernandes
Rashford---Pogba---Martial
-------Jimenez------
That's a really good starting XI and should easily be top 4 if they all stay fit throughout the season.If you want to compete with Liverpool/City you will probably need a better centre back than Lindelof and better depth (you can't have Lingard coming off the bench). We can get that starting XI by signing just two players. The problem is that the club cannot identify how to properly improve the squad. Our midfield was weak last season. Then we lose Herera (our best midfielder in 18/19) and we don't even bother replacing him!
Our defence has been 4th best in the league this season. We have conceded some late goals and De Gea has had some shockers mixed in with that. Our defence is good enough. Our attack, however, is complete shark. The problem compared with Liverpool is we don't have enough goal contributions. Fred has no goals or assists this season. Our defence has only two goals this season. Lingard has no goals/assists. Periera has one goal, three assists. Mata just has a couple of assists. Our front three does okay but the rest of them just don't contribute at all. TAA has 12 assists for god's sake! I knew we would lose against Burnley because only James and Martial can score or assist. Burnley's attack was more dangerous than ours.
Pretty optimistic but naive.
Not much chance of Pobga being there. He has said a few times he wants to leave and Ole keeps telling people that he only wants players that want to be there.
To be successful you need quality players not just a starting team. as there are over 50 games a year. That means you need class players off the bench.We would need to sell the likes of Jones, AP, Rojas,Lingard, etc etc, so would have to buy 3/4/5 plus to achieve this.
Of course we still have two players on loan in Italy we have to sell or bring back. Smalling likes it too much there so I doubt he will want to return and we probably don't want him.
That line up is good but not good enough to win the league.
I don't know whether Pogba will stay. If he does leave, Bruno Fernandes could take that spot. Then we would need to sign someone to play alongside McTominay. If Pogba did leave, I would expect us to get a good fee and maybe a player in return. There is also talk that James Maddison is a target (only problem is I can see this transfer costing us a lot).
Liverpool don't really have a very deep squad, Manchester City are the other extreme. Liverpool have been very lucky this season. Everything has gone their way with injuries and the like. It will be a big test to see how they do next season with the African Cup of Nations.
Even the starting XI I named earlier would have Fred, James, Greenwood, Romero, Dalot on the bench. I think those players are all good enough to sit on the bench. We do need a better third centre back than Jones and a few more attacking options to replace the likes of Periera and Lingard. I hope that a mixture of our academy plus us signing unheralded players like James could fill those spots. We don't want to have to spend 50 million pounds for bench players.
I don't think we can beat this season's version of Liverpool. That team is good enough for third place in most seasons. That would stop the crisis and from there we would be in a stronger position. If we could get back to regular top 4, we would have much more power in the transfer market for instance.
I don't know whether Pogba will stay. If he does leave, Bruno Fernandes could take that spot. Then we would need to sign someone to play alongside McTominay. If Pogba did leave, I would expect us to get a good fee and maybe a player in return. There is also talk that James Maddison is a target (only problem is I can see this transfer costing us a lot).
Liverpool don't really have a very deep squad, Manchester City are the other extreme. Liverpool have been very lucky this season. Everything has gone their way with injuries and the like. It will be a big test to see how they do next season with the African Cup of Nations.
Even the starting XI I named earlier would have Fred, James, Greenwood, Romero, Dalot on the bench. I think those players are all good enough to sit on the bench. We do need a better third centre back than Jones and a few more attacking options to replace the likes of Periera and Lingard. I hope that a mixture of our academy plus us signing unheralded players like James could fill those spots. We don't want to have to spend 50 million pounds for bench players.
I don't think we can beat this season's version of Liverpool. That team is good enough for third place in most seasons. That would stop the crisis and from there we would be in a stronger position. If we could get back to regular top 4, we would have much more power in the transfer market for instance.
This is a tough pill to swallow but Liverpool havent been really lucky this year, they have quite simply been superb. They are superbly coached, play football thats exciting to watch, play to the 98th minute and never give up.
They have some seriously fantastic players and luck has had nothing to do with it.
yep, crazy comment,
He may as well say Liverpool were lucky last year as well.
they are a bloody good side
I don't know whether Pogba will stay. If he does leave, Bruno Fernandes could take that spot. Then we would need to sign someone to play alongside McTominay. If Pogba did leave, I would expect us to get a good fee and maybe a player in return. There is also talk that James Maddison is a target (only problem is I can see this transfer costing us a lot).
Liverpool don't really have a very deep squad, Manchester City are the other extreme. Liverpool have been very lucky this season. Everything has gone their way with injuries and the like. It will be a big test to see how they do next season with the African Cup of Nations.
Even the starting XI I named earlier would have Fred, James, Greenwood, Romero, Dalot on the bench. I think those players are all good enough to sit on the bench. We do need a better third centre back than Jones and a few more attacking options to replace the likes of Periera and Lingard. I hope that a mixture of our academy plus us signing unheralded players like James could fill those spots. We don't want to have to spend 50 million pounds for bench players.
I don't think we can beat this season's version of Liverpool. That team is good enough for third place in most seasons. That would stop the crisis and from there we would be in a stronger position. If we could get back to regular top 4, we would have much more power in the transfer market for instance.
This is a tough pill to swallow but Liverpool havent been really lucky this year, they have quite simply been superb. They are superbly coached, play football thats exciting to watch, play to the 98th minute and never give up.
They have some seriously fantastic players and luck has had nothing to do with it.
Could not have put it better myself.
Two things can be true at once. You can be good and lucky at the same time. It can be true that Liverpool have been the best team in England this season and that they have been lucky. Liverpool, for instance, have gained 10 points in the last 10 minutes? Good fitness? Yes! Luck? Also yes! Winning that many points at the end of games isn't going to be sustainable long term, however good your fitness is.
Look at injuries. Liverpool's best players are Mane, Salah, Firmino, TAA, VVD, Robertson, Allisson and maybe Jordan Henderson. Only Alisson has missed significant games in the Premier League.
Our best players are probably Rashford, Martial, Fred, McTominay, Pogba, De Gea and Maguire. 4 of them (which includes our 3 best attacking players) have or will miss significant time this season. Obviously, decisions made by the club/Ole have compounded these injuries in Rashford's and Pogba's cases. So it isn't just luck, but it has played a factor.
For anyone saying I'm discrediting Liverpool, if you read the whole post I acknowledged we could never beat this Liverpool team playing as they are. None of Ferguson's teams would have got close to this lot (luck or not).
yep, crazy comment,
He may as well say Liverpool were lucky last year as well.
they are a bloody good side
This is ridiculous. Liverpool last year were the third best premier league side in history and didn't even win the league. They were the living, walking embodiment of unlucky. That was the most unlucky English first division campaign in history. Ridiculous to suggest they were unlucky last season and I wouldn't claim such a thing.
You are hilarious
Good luck for the rest of the season
Liverpool have been superb and by far the best team in the league. That much is clear. Perhaps saying "lucky" is being disingenuous, but the luck has undoubtedly been on their side.
Virtually no injuries (even City have been screwed by their CB injuries - if Liverpool had the same injuries as City or United they wouldn't be unbeaten for sure). Opponents missing sitters against them. Lots of those last minute victories from very fortunate errors.
Of cause the latter is born out of supreme fitness amongst other things, but in a different year they don't all go your way.
Two things can be true at once. You can be good and lucky at the same time. It can be true that Liverpool have been the best team in England this season and that they have been lucky. Liverpool, for instance, have gained 10 points in the last 10 minutes? Good fitness? Yes! Luck? Also yes! Winning that many points at the end of games isn't going to be sustainable long term, however good your fitness is.
Look at injuries. Liverpool's best players are Mane, Salah, Firmino, TAA, VVD, Robertson, Allisson and maybe Jordan Henderson. Only Alisson has missed significant games in the Premier League.
Our best players are probably Rashford, Martial, Fred, McTominay, Pogba, De Gea and Maguire. 4 of them (which includes our 3 best attacking players) have or will miss significant time this season. Obviously, decisions made by the club/Ole have compounded these injuries in Rashford's and Pogba's cases. So it isn't just luck, but it has played a factor.
For anyone saying I'm discrediting Liverpool, if you read the whole post I acknowledged we could never beat this Liverpool team playing as they are. None of Ferguson's teams would have got close to this lot (luck or not).
Think you are wrong about no Ferguson's team would get close to this Liverpool side.
The 1998/1999 teams were a much better side.
Liverpool have had a lot of injuries this season actually... particularly in midfield, centre back and keeper, the foundation of a team.
They have been lucky with their "big three" in attack yes, but to spin a narrative that they've had "virtually no injuries" is just not correct.
Liverpool have had a lot of injuries this season actually... particularly in midfield, centre back and keeper, the foundation of a team.
They have been lucky with their "big three" in attack yes, but to spin a narrative that they've had "virtually no injuries" is just not correct.
Can you remind me what they were? I'm probably wrong but I can't remember anything particularly major other than Alisson.
Liverpool have had a lot of injuries this season actually... particularly in midfield, centre back and keeper, the foundation of a team.
They have been lucky with their "big three" in attack yes, but to spin a narrative that they've had "virtually no injuries" is just not correct.
Can you remind me what they were? I'm probably wrong but I can't remember anything particularly major other than Alisson.
I find the "Absences" section on transfermarkt reasonably helpful.
Too much information to interpret to post on here, but I can see Alisson (7wks), Matip (12wks), Lovren (13+wks), Fabinho (8wks), Keita (8+wks), Shaqiri (6wks) and Ox (4wks) as their first team player injuries.
United have had Bailly (18wks), Tuanzebe (11+wks), Jones (14wks), Rojo (15wks), Shaw (10wks), Dalot and Fosu Mensah (20 wks), Pogba (17+wks), McTominay (5+wks), Martial (5wks) and Rashford (5+wks).
Liverpool have had a lot of injuries this season actually... particularly in midfield, centre back and keeper, the foundation of a team.
They have been lucky with their "big three" in attack yes, but to spin a narrative that they've had "virtually no injuries" is just not correct.
Can you remind me what they were? I'm probably wrong but I can't remember anything particularly major other than Alisson.
I find the "Absences" section on transfermarkt reasonably helpful.
Too much information to interpret to post on here, but I can see Alisson (7wks), Matip (12wks), Lovren (13+wks), Fabinho (8wks), Keita (8+wks), Shaqiri (6wks) and Ox (4wks) as their first team player injuries.
United have had Bailly (18wks), Tuanzebe (11+wks), Jones (14wks), Rojo (15wks), Shaw (10wks), Dalot and Fosu Mensah (20 wks), Pogba (17+wks), McTominay (5+wks), Martial (5wks) and Rashford (5+wks).
Apart from Alisson - are any of those players first choice? Maybe Ox but only 4 weeks. Otherwise Fabinho and Keita, but (typically) not their top players.
On average, a Manchester United player has played 1.6 more games (150mins) more than the average Liverpool player (from all players who have played minutes this season, all competitions).
The average minutes played by the top 11 Liverpool players (by minutes) is 2,393 (26.6 games) while the top 11 for Manchester United is only 2,181 mins (24.2 games). The top players are playing more
But I think a key stat is that in terms of minutes played, those in positions 21, 22, 23 (fringe squad positions) are Pogba, P Jones and Chong for United, and C Jones, Kelleher and WIlliams for Liverpool.
Haven't got other teams data, but I would think that City's would also be interesting
The only thing that is really relevant is the league table.All the others stats meaningless.
The only thing that is really relevant is the league table.All the others stats meaningless.
Im not saying they have had more injuries than you, but its certainly been impactful, and is far from the "virtually no injuries" claim in this thread.
Keita and fabinho established themselves as the starting mids, then multiple CBs went down at once, fabinho moved into CB, and then he and Keita both got injured. I thought they would struggle at that point, but they maintained their level.
Very impressive.
I seems like we are looking for ways to minimise Liverpools season. Its easy to twist stats to suit an agenda.
Simple fact is they won games because they were brilliant, they didnt win games because they are lucky.
Think you are wrong about no Ferguson's team would get close to this Liverpool side.
The 1998/1999 teams were a much better side.
As it stands you may be right, but if Liverpool go on to complete any two of the following;
1. Unbeaten league season
2. 100+ pt league season
3. CL winners
Particularly if those two are 1 and 3, then they would have pissed all over the 99 side from a great height.
[Deleted, Cbfed]
Think you are wrong about no Ferguson's team would get close to this Liverpool side.
The 1998/1999 teams were a much better side.
As it stands you may be right, but if Liverpool go on to complete any two of the following;
1. Unbeaten league season
2. 100+ pt league season
3. CL winners
Particularly if those two are 1 and 3, then they would have pissed all over the 99 side from a great height.
You do know that treble means winning three competitions. So winning two competitions does not better winning three, no matter how you do it.
Edit: but being not as good as a treble winning team certainly doesn't mean this is a bad Liverpool team. They are clearly the best in the league and have been building to this for a few seasons now, so its good to know that faith and patience is still here somewhere
Liverpool are currently very good.
ManU are currently not.
I think that sums up the discussion?
Bruno Fernandes breakthrough! Duncan Castles was correct all along, kudos to him. Per multiple sauces, he's on a flight at midday tomorrow (UK time).
Liverpool are currently very good.
ManU are currently not.
I think that sums up the discussion?
Just close-up the forums and you and Leggy can post the table each week to sum it up for everyone?