look the guy himself posted it on social media so don't give me the victim line
Stupid people like Israel are more likely to go to hell than gays
Things that piss you off...
when you realise that stupid people should go to hell
If all of the Christians are in heaven, I'd rather go to hell. Sounds like a party!
Pizza for everyone!!!
Israel Folau - what a Twit
I am not christian (or follow any religion) but I will still defend his right to believe in what he wants.
So he thinks god will send gays to hell. Big deal.
This was all just a media wind-up imo: they set him up with some loaded questions and created the scandal. Pure click bait stuff.
With social media being the boorish beast that it is, once the story was out (no pun intended) all the journo's had to do was sit back and watch the shark fly around. Job done.
If you really want to live in a "tolerant" and "diverse" society then how about practising what you preach and that means tolerating the fact that other people may have different beliefs than yourself.
Is going around bullying and hating on people whose views you don't like really the way forward to a better society?
Once you attack someone you lose the chance for any meaningful dialogue as well and with it any chance for positive change and/or growth for all parties. Instead views become entrenched.
I'm all about the free speech.
But it goes both ways.
I disagree with people who say that he shouldn't be able to say these things.
But if people call him a twit and tell him it's stupid, I'm cool with that as well. That's their right to free speech, and it's the consequences of his right to free speech.
Hard to know where the line is drawn between that and bullying mind you, there's always grey area with these things.
So far, all I see are positive outcomes.
Yes Folau said something I disagree with, but the response from other players, coaches, pundits, and most of the public, has been amazing. It feels like Rugby now has a better environment for gay people as a result of all this. If a rugby player was to hurry the f*ck up and come out the closet already, I think the reception would be amazing, partly because of this Folau furore.
The people arguing for his right to say it are only doing that - arguing for his right to say it. I haven't really seen anybody actually arguing that he is right. I think what we are seeing here is that the vast vast majority of people disagree with him, and that is now publicly known, thanks to having the conversation.
That's a very good point Paul. Too many people these days think that free speech means that they should be able to say anything they want without being challenged. It's an extension of the view that all opinions are equally valid, which is clearly bullshark.
Israel Folau - what a Twit
I am not christian (or follow any religion) but I will still defend his right to believe in what he wants.
So he thinks god will send gays to hell. Big deal.
This was all just a media wind-up imo: they set him up with some loaded questions and created the scandal. Pure click bait stuff.
With social media being the boorish beast that it is, once the story was out (no pun intended) all the journo's had to do was sit back and watch the shark fly around. Job done.
If you really want to live in a "tolerant" and "diverse" society then how about practising what you preach and that means tolerating the fact that other people may have different beliefs than yourself.
Is going around bullying and hating on people whose views you don't like really the way forward to a better society?
Once you attack someone you lose the chance for any meaningful dialogue as well and with it any chance for positive change and/or growth for all parties. Instead views become entrenched.
Freedom of speech does not mean immunity from criticism. I don't have to tolerate something that is outright harmful. Media had nothing to do with his initial posts. Feel free to criticise my "attack" on him, I actually don't care and 100% disagree with you, but consider his attack on a specific part of our society - a part that has fought to be accepted for so long, that still suffers at the hands (literally) of bigots and the easily influenced.
Number of deaths caused by gay marriage: 0
Number of deaths caused by marginalisation of gay people: more than you can count
Freedom of speech does not mean immunity from criticism. I don't have to tolerate something that is outright harmful. Media had nothing to do with his initial posts. Feel free to criticise my "attack" on him, I actually don't care and 100% disagree with you, but consider his attack on a specific part of our society - a part that has fought to be accepted for so long, that still suffers at the hands (literally) of bigots and the easily influenced.
Number of deaths caused by gay marriage: 0
Number of deaths caused by marginalisation of gay people: more than you can count
You are entitled to your views and your beliefs, so am I, and so is Israel.
Free speech in action right there. Everything as it should be imo
whether what someone says is viewed as an "attack" or "harmful" is really subjective imo. If someone told me I was going to hell for what I believe in I really couldn't care less. Fudge em
That's a very good point Paul. Too many people these days think that free speech means that they should be able to say anything they want without being challenged. It's an extension of the view that all opinions are equally valid, which is clearly bullshark.
First up I haven't met anyone who thinks they can say whatever they want without fear of being challenged. Most people are fully aware that freedom of speech is a two way street, although more often than not its a roundabout ;-)
As for all opinions being equally valid, well thats a bit of a grey area really as it is all about context first and foremost. How does one define a comments as being valid or not in the first place?
A comment can be accurate or inaccurate and that can easily be checked out but challenging the validity of someone's comment is not so simple as a person may feel their comment is valid as it is in line with their value base, yet The same comment may be seen a totally invalid by someone else who has a different value base.
So who is right? Who is wrong? Is there even a right and a wrong and if so who decides? And even if a decision is made it will be made in the context of the values held by that society at that point in time.
As we know the values a society holds are constantly changing too and with it the validity of certain comments. So now what?!
So for me all opinions are equally valid for the person(s) who present them and then once these comments are out there in the public domain then they can be debated on their respective merits. For me that is free speech in action as it should be,
I don't want to live in a society where people are dictated to about what views and beliefs are valid and which are not. These are very personal concepts and imo should be left for each individual to decide. Sure challenge peoples ideas and beliefs but please don't dictate to them as it just reeks of everything that free speech isn't.
Of course I am talking about freedom of speech, belief and ideas here.
Also people are complicated beings and often their beliefs and values come from the way they were brought up as kids ie thats how they got their "normal". Can you really blame someone for their beliefs when that was how they were taught as kids?
Also Do you want a society that is 100% compliant with the values and beliefs you think are valid? If so what do you intend to do with the people whose views are not inline with your own and maybe never will be?
Whats the end game here?
Lock them up? Make them wear stars on the jackets?
That's a very good point Paul. Too many people these days think that free speech means that they should be able to say anything they want without being challenged. It's an extension of the view that all opinions are equally valid, which is clearly bullshark.
First up I haven't met anyone who thinks they can say whatever they want without fear of being challenged. Most people are fully aware that freedom of speech is a two way street, although more often than not its a roundabout ;-)
As for all opinions being equally valid, well thats a bit of a grey area really as it is all about context first and foremost. How does one define a comments as being valid or not in the first place?
A comment can be accurate or inaccurate and that can easily be checked out but challenging the validity of someone's comment is not so simple as a person may feel their comment is valid as it is in line with their value base, yet The same comment may be seen a totally invalid by someone else who has a different value base.
So who is right? Who is wrong? Is there even a right and a wrong and if so who decides? And even if a decision is made it will be made in the context of the values held by that society at that point in time.
As we know the values a society holds are constantly changing too and with it the validity of certain comments. So now what?!
So for me all opinions are equally valid for the person(s) who present them and then once these comments are out there in the public domain then they can be debated on their respective merits. For me that is free speech in action as it should be,
I don't want to live in a society where people are dictated to about what views and beliefs are valid and which are not. These are very personal concepts and imo should be left for each individual to decide. Sure challenge peoples ideas and beliefs but please don't dictate to them as it just reeks of everything that free speech isn't.
Of course I am talking about freedom of speech, belief and ideas here.
Also people are complicated beings and often their beliefs and values come from the way they were brought up as kids ie thats how they got their "normal". Can you really blame someone for their beliefs when that was how they were taught as kids?
Also Do you want a society that is 100% compliant with the values and beliefs you think are valid? If so what do you intend to do with the people whose views are not inline with your own and maybe never will be?
Whats the end game here?
Lock them up? Make them wear stars on the jackets?
You do realise that you have just said that the opinion that 'everyone who doesn't think like me should be imprisoned' is essentially equally valid as the opinion that such a stance is absolutely ridiculous?
[quote=LeighboNZ]
Israel Folau - what a Twit
So far, all I see are positive outcomes.
Yes Folau said something I disagree with, but the response from other players, coaches, pundits, and most of the public, has been amazing. It feels like Rugby now has a better environment for gay people as a result of all this. If a rugby player was to hurry the f*ck up and come out the closet already, I think the reception would be amazing, partly because of this Folau furore.
Exactly this. Though Gareth Thomas ex-Welsh and British Lions international (who actually finished his career playing rugby league), came out. Was once he was retired from memory. Also of course Nigel Owens the ref, has been openly gay for years.
If an All Black or even Super rugby player, came out would be huge in NZ. But the response to Folau thing from Weber, Perenara, Hansen etc - shows the sport has come a long long way.
Freedom of speech does not mean immunity from criticism. I don't have to tolerate something that is outright harmful. Media had nothing to do with his initial posts. Feel free to criticise my "attack" on him, I actually don't care and 100% disagree with you, but consider his attack on a specific part of our society - a part that has fought to be accepted for so long, that still suffers at the hands (literally) of bigots and the easily influenced.
Number of deaths caused by gay marriage: 0
Number of deaths caused by marginalisation of gay people: more than you can count
You are entitled to your views and your beliefs, so am I, and so is Israel.
Free speech in action right there. Everything as it should be imo
whether what someone says is viewed as an "attack" or "harmful" is really subjective imo. If someone told me I was going to hell for what I believe in I really couldn't care less. Fudge em
So as a gay person, you've experienced this type of pressure, bullying and prejudice? Or you've talked to people who have?
That's a very good point Paul. Too many people these days think that free speech means that they should be able to say anything they want without being challenged. It's an extension of the view that all opinions are equally valid, which is clearly bullshark.
First up I haven't met anyone who thinks they can say whatever they want without fear of being challenged. Most people are fully aware that freedom of speech is a two way street, although more often than not its a roundabout ;-)
As for all opinions being equally valid, well thats a bit of a grey area really as it is all about context first and foremost. How does one define a comments as being valid or not in the first place?
A comment can be accurate or inaccurate and that can easily be checked out but challenging the validity of someone's comment is not so simple as a person may feel their comment is valid as it is in line with their value base, yet The same comment may be seen a totally invalid by someone else who has a different value base.
So who is right? Who is wrong? Is there even a right and a wrong and if so who decides? And even if a decision is made it will be made in the context of the values held by that society at that point in time.
As we know the values a society holds are constantly changing too and with it the validity of certain comments. So now what?!
So for me all opinions are equally valid for the person(s) who present them and then once these comments are out there in the public domain then they can be debated on their respective merits. For me that is free speech in action as it should be,
I don't want to live in a society where people are dictated to about what views and beliefs are valid and which are not. These are very personal concepts and imo should be left for each individual to decide. Sure challenge peoples ideas and beliefs but please don't dictate to them as it just reeks of everything that free speech isn't.
Of course I am talking about freedom of speech, belief and ideas here.
Also people are complicated beings and often their beliefs and values come from the way they were brought up as kids ie thats how they got their "normal". Can you really blame someone for their beliefs when that was how they were taught as kids?
Also Do you want a society that is 100% compliant with the values and beliefs you think are valid? If so what do you intend to do with the people whose views are not inline with your own and maybe never will be?
Whats the end game here?
Lock them up? Make them wear stars on the jackets?
You do realise that you have just said that the opinion that 'everyone who doesn't think like me should be imprisoned' is essentially equally valid as the opinion that such a stance is absolutely ridiculous?
Context is key my friend.
Everyones opinion is valid after all. why should it not be?
Who are you to decide what people should or should not believe in or value?
Freedom of speech does not mean immunity from criticism. I don't have to tolerate something that is outright harmful. Media had nothing to do with his initial posts. Feel free to criticise my "attack" on him, I actually don't care and 100% disagree with you, but consider his attack on a specific part of our society - a part that has fought to be accepted for so long, that still suffers at the hands (literally) of bigots and the easily influenced.
Number of deaths caused by gay marriage: 0
Number of deaths caused by marginalisation of gay people: more than you can count
You are entitled to your views and your beliefs, so am I, and so is Israel.
Free speech in action right there. Everything as it should be imo
whether what someone says is viewed as an "attack" or "harmful" is really subjective imo. If someone told me I was going to hell for what I believe in I really couldn't care less. Fudge em
So as a gay person, you've experienced this type of pressure, bullying and prejudice? Or you've talked to people who have?
What pressure, bullying and prejudice exactly?
Sorry I didn't see any of that, but admittedly I didn't go looking.
That's a very good point Paul. Too many people these days think that free speech means that they should be able to say anything they want without being challenged. It's an extension of the view that all opinions are equally valid, which is clearly bullshark.
First up I haven't met anyone who thinks they can say whatever they want without fear of being challenged. Most people are fully aware that freedom of speech is a two way street, although more often than not its a roundabout ;-)
As for all opinions being equally valid, well thats a bit of a grey area really as it is all about context first and foremost. How does one define a comments as being valid or not in the first place?
A comment can be accurate or inaccurate and that can easily be checked out but challenging the validity of someone's comment is not so simple as a person may feel their comment is valid as it is in line with their value base, yet The same comment may be seen a totally invalid by someone else who has a different value base.
So who is right? Who is wrong? Is there even a right and a wrong and if so who decides? And even if a decision is made it will be made in the context of the values held by that society at that point in time.
As we know the values a society holds are constantly changing too and with it the validity of certain comments. So now what?!
So for me all opinions are equally valid for the person(s) who present them and then once these comments are out there in the public domain then they can be debated on their respective merits. For me that is free speech in action as it should be,
I don't want to live in a society where people are dictated to about what views and beliefs are valid and which are not. These are very personal concepts and imo should be left for each individual to decide. Sure challenge peoples ideas and beliefs but please don't dictate to them as it just reeks of everything that free speech isn't.
Of course I am talking about freedom of speech, belief and ideas here.
Also people are complicated beings and often their beliefs and values come from the way they were brought up as kids ie thats how they got their "normal". Can you really blame someone for their beliefs when that was how they were taught as kids?
Also Do you want a society that is 100% compliant with the values and beliefs you think are valid? If so what do you intend to do with the people whose views are not inline with your own and maybe never will be?
Whats the end game here?
Lock them up? Make them wear stars on the jackets?
You do realise that you have just said that the opinion that 'everyone who doesn't think like me should be imprisoned' is essentially equally valid as the opinion that such a stance is absolutely ridiculous?
Context is key my friend.
Everyones opinion is valid after all. why should it not be?
Who are you to decide what people should or should not believe in or value?
Because validating opinions that are harmful to others is, I don't know, dangerous?
Just remember troops, on April 25 every year we should honour those whom lost their lives (& those whom survived) to preserve your rights to have a discussion like this and not be punished for it.
Just remember troops, on April 25 every year we should honour those whom lost their lives (& those whom survived) to preserve your rights to have a discussion like this and not be punished for it.
Do we? I thought Anzac day was about honouring those that died in Gallipoli in WWI a war that was more about land and who had it in europe
WWII was the war that was fought to preserve our rights (IE against the Nazi's) and freedom of speech
Just remember troops, on April 25 every year we should honour those whom lost their lives (& those whom survived) to preserve your rights to have a discussion like this and not be punished for it.
Do we? I thought Anzac day was about honouring those that died in Gallipoli in WWI a war that was more about land and who had it in europe
WWII was the war that was fought to preserve our rights (IE against the Nazi's) and freedom of speech
ANZAC Day is not specifically about those who died at Gallipoli, it’s bigger than that. It is a Remembrance Day for everyone who has served our country, observed on the anniversary of the landing at Gallipoli.
Just remember troops, on April 25 every year we should honour those whom lost their lives (& those whom survived) to preserve your rights to have a discussion like this and not be punished for it.
Do we? I thought Anzac day was about honouring those that died in Gallipoli in WWI a war that was more about land and who had it in europe
WWII was the war that was fought to preserve our rights (IE against the Nazi's) and freedom of speech
The nazis had similar views to Israel about gays as well, so sometimes when those views are expressed they do need to be shot down straight away or you have lunatics influencing people like hitler
Freedom of speech does not mean immunity from criticism. I don't have to tolerate something that is outright harmful. Media had nothing to do with his initial posts. Feel free to criticise my "attack" on him, I actually don't care and 100% disagree with you, but consider his attack on a specific part of our society - a part that has fought to be accepted for so long, that still suffers at the hands (literally) of bigots and the easily influenced.
Number of deaths caused by gay marriage: 0
Number of deaths caused by marginalisation of gay people: more than you can count
You are entitled to your views and your beliefs, so am I, and so is Israel.
Free speech in action right there. Everything as it should be imo
whether what someone says is viewed as an "attack" or "harmful" is really subjective imo. If someone told me I was going to hell for what I believe in I really couldn't care less. Fudge em
So as a gay person, you've experienced this type of pressure, bullying and prejudice? Or you've talked to people who have?
What pressure, bullying and prejudice exactly?
Sorry I didn't see any of that, but admittedly I didn't go looking.
A rhetoric like Folau's gives rise to bullying. You get teenagers, influenced by his comments and beliefs, harassing, abusing and bullying other kids who they think might be gay or who are gay.
As a public figure has said it, then people tend to listen and be influenced. Telling people they will go to hell also seems like bullying to me... "Do this or something bad will happen to you".
Just remember troops, on April 25 every year we should honour those whom lost their lives (& those whom survived) to preserve your rights to have a discussion like this and not be punished for it.
Do we? I thought Anzac day was about honouring those that died in Gallipoli in WWI a war that was more about land and who had it in europe
WWII was the war that was fought to preserve our rights (IE against the Nazi's) and freedom of speech
The nazis had similar views to Israel about gays as well, so sometimes when those views are expressed they do need to be shot down straight away or you have lunatics influencing people like hitler
So we protected the right to bully people who we deem to sin against god? Wow. I prefer to believe they fought to protect the freedom to be who you want to be.
Look... As a Christian, Israel is allowed to express his views. But we are also allowed to express our views, and it's my opinion that his views are outdated and cruel. The fact he expressed his views on social media means he should expect a response from people, especially as a sports star. Besides, I wouldn't even give him the excuse of 'im just following my religion'. He has tattoos, which are strictly not allowed, as expressed by the Bible. But you know what the big difference is? I don't believe that everyone with tattoos should burn in hell...
Freedom of speech does not mean immunity from criticism. I don't have to tolerate something that is outright harmful. Media had nothing to do with his initial posts. Feel free to criticise my "attack" on him, I actually don't care and 100% disagree with you, but consider his attack on a specific part of our society - a part that has fought to be accepted for so long, that still suffers at the hands (literally) of bigots and the easily influenced.
Number of deaths caused by gay marriage: 0
Number of deaths caused by marginalisation of gay people: more than you can count
You are entitled to your views and your beliefs, so am I, and so is Israel.
Free speech in action right there. Everything as it should be imo
whether what someone says is viewed as an "attack" or "harmful" is really subjective imo. If someone told me I was going to hell for what I believe in I really couldn't care less. Fudge em
So as a gay person, you've experienced this type of pressure, bullying and prejudice? Or you've talked to people who have?
What pressure, bullying and prejudice exactly?
Sorry I didn't see any of that, but admittedly I didn't go looking.
A rhetoric like Folau's gives rise to bullying. You get teenagers, influenced by his comments and beliefs, harassing, abusing and bullying other kids who they think might be gay or who are gay.
As a public figure has said it, then people tend to listen and be influenced. Telling people they will go to hell also seems like bullying to me... "Do this or something bad will happen to you".
I understand the theory, but I'm asking where this is actually happening? The public response, from rugby figures and everyone, is the opposite of this. I'm not hearing any stories of people feeling empowered by Folau and bullying gay people as a result.
Of course very happy to be corrected - as I say I didn't go looking for evidence of it myself.
if anything, it is Folau who is suffering the bullying for articulating his views
Freedom of speech does not mean immunity from criticism. I don't have to tolerate something that is outright harmful. Media had nothing to do with his initial posts. Feel free to criticise my "attack" on him, I actually don't care and 100% disagree with you, but consider his attack on a specific part of our society - a part that has fought to be accepted for so long, that still suffers at the hands (literally) of bigots and the easily influenced.
Number of deaths caused by gay marriage: 0
Number of deaths caused by marginalisation of gay people: more than you can count
You are entitled to your views and your beliefs, so am I, and so is Israel.
Free speech in action right there. Everything as it should be imo
whether what someone says is viewed as an "attack" or "harmful" is really subjective imo. If someone told me I was going to hell for what I believe in I really couldn't care less. Fudge em
So as a gay person, you've experienced this type of pressure, bullying and prejudice? Or you've talked to people who have?
What pressure, bullying and prejudice exactly?
Sorry I didn't see any of that, but admittedly I didn't go looking.
A rhetoric like Folau's gives rise to bullying. You get teenagers, influenced by his comments and beliefs, harassing, abusing and bullying other kids who they think might be gay or who are gay.
As a public figure has said it, then people tend to listen and be influenced. Telling people they will go to hell also seems like bullying to me... "Do this or something bad will happen to you".
I understand the theory, but I'm asking where this is actually happening? The public response, from rugby figures and everyone, is the opposite of this. I'm not hearing any stories of people feeling empowered by Folau and bullying gay people as a result.
Of course very happy to be corrected - as I say I didn't go looking for evidence of it myself.
"It is tough to stand up as a gay man or woman...It is tough to stand up and say, 'I am proud of who I am and I'm going to live my life the way I want to live my life'. And then have people like Israel Folau stand there and say that you are going to go to hell because of the person that you are and it is really, really harmful to the thousands and thousands of people who look up to him and listen to him and idolise him."
"I always feel like we're moving forward and then something like this will happen and we're just going two steps back. I just wish we could get to a place where everyone can accept everyone for who they are and who they want to be."
He was especially hurt because he had recently worked with Maria and had felt accepted by her.
"I had so much love and respect for her and I felt the love and respect from her for me as well, and then to see her standing up and almost saying that she believes the things he believes - that was really hard," he said"
- from someone affected.
if anything, it is Folau who is suffering the bullying for articulating his views
Again, freedom of speech does not exempt you from criticism of those views.
if anything, it is Folau who is suffering the bullying for articulating his views
Again, freedom of speech does not exempt you from criticism of those views.
If anything outbursts like Foleaus and the response to it would surely show anyone in the Gay community the level of support and acceptance they now have
if anything, it is Folau who is suffering the bullying for articulating his views
Agree. I personally think the whole things a joke. Although Folau hasn't portrayed his beliefs in the best possible way, the whole reaction has been ridiculous. He is 100% free to portray his beliefs and this is only a big subject because someone has intentionally asked him a question on social media to get this sort of response. He didn't openly go out in the media portraying his hatred for gays, he just honestly answered a fans question. There are plenty of professional sportspeople throughout the world who share the same beliefs as him, he just got baited and tbh I dont think he could care less about the reaction - hence why he reiterated his point again
Freedom of speech does not mean immunity from criticism. I don't have to tolerate something that is outright harmful. Media had nothing to do with his initial posts. Feel free to criticise my "attack" on him, I actually don't care and 100% disagree with you, but consider his attack on a specific part of our society - a part that has fought to be accepted for so long, that still suffers at the hands (literally) of bigots and the easily influenced.
Number of deaths caused by gay marriage: 0
Number of deaths caused by marginalisation of gay people: more than you can count
You are entitled to your views and your beliefs, so am I, and so is Israel.
Free speech in action right there. Everything as it should be imo
whether what someone says is viewed as an "attack" or "harmful" is really subjective imo. If someone told me I was going to hell for what I believe in I really couldn't care less. Fudge em
So as a gay person, you've experienced this type of pressure, bullying and prejudice? Or you've talked to people who have?
What pressure, bullying and prejudice exactly?
Sorry I didn't see any of that, but admittedly I didn't go looking.
A rhetoric like Folau's gives rise to bullying. You get teenagers, influenced by his comments and beliefs, harassing, abusing and bullying other kids who they think might be gay or who are gay.
As a public figure has said it, then people tend to listen and be influenced. Telling people they will go to hell also seems like bullying to me... "Do this or something bad will happen to you".
I understand the theory, but I'm asking where this is actually happening? The public response, from rugby figures and everyone, is the opposite of this. I'm not hearing any stories of people feeling empowered by Folau and bullying gay people as a result.
Of course very happy to be corrected - as I say I didn't go looking for evidence of it myself.
"It is tough to stand up as a gay man or woman...It is tough to stand up and say, 'I am proud of who I am and I'm going to live my life the way I want to live my life'. And then have people like Israel Folau stand there and say that you are going to go to hell because of the person that you are and it is really, really harmful to the thousands and thousands of people who look up to him and listen to him and idolise him."
"I always feel like we're moving forward and then something like this will happen and we're just going two steps back. I just wish we could get to a place where everyone can accept everyone for who they are and who they want to be."
He was especially hurt because he had recently worked with Maria and had felt accepted by her.
"I had so much love and respect for her and I felt the love and respect from her for me as well, and then to see her standing up and almost saying that she believes the things he believes - that was really hard," he said"
- from someone affected.
That's a direct response to Folau, it's not teenage bullying. He's upset about what Folau said, and rightly so. People won't be idolising Folau much for anything anymore.
I watched that weather dude say that, I agreed with him, it was an amazing, impassioned speech, on national television, and it's great you gave a transcript here as well.
That is a massive positive for me. I am really glad the people of NZ got to see that guy saying that. I really hope many many young gay people saw it. Now they know how almost everybody feels about it. They also know if they've looked online that pretty much everybody disagrees with Folau. I've not seen one person come out and argue that he is correct.
And they can't miss this either. I don't think anybody online could have seen the Folau comment(s) in isolation. When you read about it, it's almost always under a headline that is negative towards Folau.
if anything, it is Folau who is suffering the bullying for articulating his views
Agree. I personally think the whole things a joke. Although Folau hasn't portrayed his beliefs in the best possible way, the whole reaction has been ridiculous. He is 100% free to portray his beliefs and this is only a big subject because someone has intentionally asked him a question on social media to get this sort of response. He didn't openly go out in the media portraying his hatred for gays, he just honestly answered a fans question. There are plenty of professional sportspeople throughout the world who share the same beliefs as him, he just got baited and tbh I dont think he could care less about the reaction - hence why he reiterated his point again
So him saying gays should burn in hell is ok. But people reacting negatively to that view is ridiculous?
He is “100% free to portray his belief” but when people react and portray their belief that he’s wrong, they’re being ridiculous?
if anything, it is Folau who is suffering the bullying for articulating his views
Agree. I personally think the whole things a joke. Although Folau hasn't portrayed his beliefs in the best possible way, the whole reaction has been ridiculous. He is 100% free to portray his beliefs and this is only a big subject because someone has intentionally asked him a question on social media to get this sort of response. He didn't openly go out in the media portraying his hatred for gays, he just honestly answered a fans question. There are plenty of professional sportspeople throughout the world who share the same beliefs as him, he just got baited and tbh I dont think he could care less about the reaction - hence why he reiterated his point again
"...reaction has been ridiculous..."
Wow. People telling him that it's not ok to tell people they are going to hell for their lifestyle is ridiculous?
He posted on his social media - he has 340,000 Instagram followers and 123,000 Twitter followers. That a hell of a reach for hate speech and yes, his comments are hate speech. Telling someone they will go to hell is hate speech.
I would guess that he has never seen the actual devastation that homophobia can cause and I'm not going to detail it here for fear of triggering any painful memories.
if anything, it is Folau who is suffering the bullying for articulating his views
Agree. I personally think the whole things a joke. Although Folau hasn't portrayed his beliefs in the best possible way, the whole reaction has been ridiculous. He is 100% free to portray his beliefs and this is only a big subject because someone has intentionally asked him a question on social media to get this sort of response. He didn't openly go out in the media portraying his hatred for gays, he just honestly answered a fans question. There are plenty of professional sportspeople throughout the world who share the same beliefs as him, he just got baited and tbh I dont think he could care less about the reaction - hence why he reiterated his point again
"...reaction has been ridiculous..."
Wow. People telling him that it's not ok to tell people they are going to hell for their lifestyle is ridiculous?
He posted on his social media - he has 340,000 Instagram followers and 123,000 Twitter followers. That a hell of a reach for hate speech and yes, his comments are hate speech. Telling someone they will go to hell is hate speech.
I would guess that he has never seen the actual devastation that homophobia can cause and I'm not going to detail it here for fear of triggering any painful memories.
If you do not believe in God, how can that be hate speech.
He is entitled to his opinion regardless, as you are.
typical Australians let him off lightly as well. Play on son, no worries
Says something about that bigoted country
typical Australians let him off lightly as well. Play on son, no worries
Says something about that bigoted country
As a supposed lawyer, do you believe in free speech?
Bet you don't want to answer this.
Constant speculation around the future of the Phoenix.
typical Australians let him off lightly as well. Play on son, no worries
Says something about that bigoted country
As a supposed lawyer, do you believe in free speech?
Bet you don't want to answer this.
Don't mind answering leggy.
hate speech is not free speech
if anything, it is Folau who is suffering the bullying for articulating his views
Agree. I personally think the whole things a joke. Although Folau hasn't portrayed his beliefs in the best possible way, the whole reaction has been ridiculous. He is 100% free to portray his beliefs and this is only a big subject because someone has intentionally asked him a question on social media to get this sort of response. He didn't openly go out in the media portraying his hatred for gays, he just honestly answered a fans question. There are plenty of professional sportspeople throughout the world who share the same beliefs as him, he just got baited and tbh I dont think he could care less about the reaction - hence why he reiterated his point again
"...reaction has been ridiculous..."
Wow. People telling him that it's not ok to tell people they are going to hell for their lifestyle is ridiculous?
He posted on his social media - he has 340,000 Instagram followers and 123,000 Twitter followers. That a hell of a reach for hate speech and yes, his comments are hate speech. Telling someone they will go to hell is hate speech.
I would guess that he has never seen the actual devastation that homophobia can cause and I'm not going to detail it here for fear of triggering any painful memories.
If you do not believe in God, how can that be hate speech.
He is entitled to his opinion regardless, as you are.
Folau's comments definitely a form of hate speech. You pick out a singular racial/religious/sexual orientation etc group - and say they will burn in hell is simply wrong. Appreciate he was responding to someone's question foremost. But not that different to the Nazis saying Jews were rats/vermin.
Re how harmful these comments can be to the gay community. My young female cousin went through a tough time, accepting that she was gay. Not through any bullying I'm aware of, just I think for many in LGBT community, is not easy for them accepting that they are different, and can be a real battle within themselves. Plus having to then tell friends, family etc. Torturous time for some. Folau's comments don't help at all. Complete bullshark to be honest. I'm proud of the reaction from many in NZ rugby community, and NZ in general.
I can't stand when folks base their agruments on some passage of the bible, like this passage is the world rules or something. It's just a fudgeing book, just like Mein Kampf was a just a book. Sure the world's most famous written libro, but still just a book - which doesn't excuse hate speech quotations.
Just gonna pitch in here with my view - the public backlash is fine, however any punishment (being banned from NZ, kicked out of the Aussie NT) is not. Even though what he said was stupid, he’s entitled to say what he wants where he wants unless under extreme circumstances. I’d say it’s inconsiderate speech not hate speech.
What is the definition of hate speech? Is there a legal one?
I always get frustrated arguing specific examples of what is or isn't hate speech, when it's such a subjective thing.
It generally always leads to "well if you haven't been oppressed by this particular thing then you don't know what it's like, so you're not allowed an opinion".
What is the definition of hate speech? Is there a legal one?
I always get frustrated arguing specific examples of what is or isn't hate speech, when it's such a subjective thing.
It generally always leads to "well if you haven't been oppressed by this particular thing then you don't know what it's like, so you're not allowed an opinion".
Does there need to be a legal definition?
Let’s say I’m gay. Israel Folau says I should go to hell. Sounds a bit hateful to me.
Anyway he’s been widespreadly criticised which is great. Hopefully he stops these stupid tweets. If not ARU need to take action, no matter how big a star he is. Must be starting to make some of his team mates uncomfortable, no one is bigger than the team.
What is the definition of hate speech? Is there a legal one?
I always get frustrated arguing specific examples of what is or isn't hate speech, when it's such a subjective thing.
It generally always leads to "well if you haven't been oppressed by this particular thing then you don't know what it's like, so you're not allowed an opinion".
In New Zealand this is covered by s61 of the Human Rights Act 1993, but it doesn't extend to cover hate speech on the basis of sexual orientation.
typical Australians let him off lightly as well. Play on son, no worries
Says something about that bigoted country
Dislikes bigotry then makes sweeping derisive generalisation about the people of another country. Hypocrisy in a nutshell.
Play on son, your double standards have been duly noted,