Calling into Radio Sport the other night suggested we join Hawaii in the confederation they play in.
All Whites' Oceania/Asia Confederation Conundrum
If the Nix joined the MLS the away trip to New England would make Perth look like a trip to Taupo
I agree with a lot of stuff you post Alf (in AW and ManU threads); in this case I'll have to bite though. I'd argue Asian competition is better for age group development than Oceania/WC qualification. It's a longer competitive match cycle, tougher competition etc - the benefits seem obvious. (Also it is a moot point as change will never happen until Oceania is absorbed into a modified East Asia/Western Pacific confederation).
Conversely WC qualification at age group level via Oceania doesn't benefit young player development as much. The only positive might have historically been the 'shop window' argument, ie, it's a well scouted tournament, but less so these days; and European clubs place more emphasis on European U19 and U21 tournaments. The last U17 Kiwi male player who was scouted from U17 World Cup was Jack Pelter I think; and he lasted less than 12 months at Sunderland - presumably because he wasn't ready for the transition to a pro environment. The only other player in recent time may have been Bill Tuiloma, but I think he had already trialled at LA Galaxy when he played U17 WC.
Why do you think WC qualification for U17/20s via Oceania benefits the game here more than tough regular competition in Asia, hypothetical as it is?
We might not get regular games at age group level via Asia because we would have to ration the teams we sent to qualifiers in the same way Australia has sometimes had to do. The cost is significant because we have multiple teams and if Australia with a bigger economy and bigger player base struggle with these costs how much of an impact do you expect it to have on us?
I wasnt saying we shouldnt switch to Asia, I was just pointing out what i believe are important aspects of our players opportunities and development via age group WC's for both sexes and how switching to Asia would hurt that a lot. There are other aspects to think about as well. We have a great opportunity to give coaches experience on the world stage at world cups at age group level. There is a huge amount of information sharing that goes on at FIFA tournaments and part of that had an input into the coaching curriculum portion of the WoF plan. The study that produced the WoF plan came directly from technical data gathered over successive age group world cups we took part in. You can ask Rob Sherman or any of the other technical staff about that. If we go to Asia we simply wont be able to afford to send every age group side to qualifiers and also run a big risk of only qualifying on rare occassions. The loss of opportunity and experience for both players and coaches via Oceania's place at age group world cups is significant for us, to think otherwise is either ignoring reality or not understanding what goes on with respect to coaching knowledge and experience as well as players experiencing big tournaments on a very frequent basis.
The days of a NZ age group side being thumped 13-0 such as against Spain in 1997 are well behind us and a big chunk of that is because of the experience gained by players and coaching staff in the years since then.
With respect to the AW's and the womans senior side qualifying via Asia would be a much better route because of the increased quality of opposition. Im just pointing out that if we go via Asia then we win on one hand but lose on the other and that within the context of our development as a football nation would the loss of experience and opportunity for age group players and coaching staff be something we are ready for and able to deal with. Qualification via Oceania because its affordable has meant that our age group extended squads are able to train together more and the significance of that has multiple benefits. Sure the qualifying games offer a weak set of games generally but the cost saving leaves money in the kitty for meaningful build up games to an age group WC.
So better for our 2 senior sides for sure but are we at the point where the loss of the age group experiences is something we can handle?
Just want to expand on the age group WC's and their impact on the local scene.
Meaningful qualifying games would be great but there is absolutely a cost balancing act to handle as seen with Australia. One of the major advantages at age group level with respect to playing at age group world cups comes down to the experience gained. The experience isnt just gained at an age group world cup. Because its affordable we have been able to have long build ups, selection processes and training opportunities for players and coaches. local coaches who get these jobs lift their performances significantly from their local coaching roles at club and schools. They naturally have a desire to be a success and also have to fulfil the professional expectations of the national body. The trialling, identification, coaching and selecting of talent for our age group sides is reasonably involved and thorough. A function of being able to afford to do this via Oceania. When these coaches come back out of the NZ age group scene the lifted levels of professionalism and training habits gained then get passed on to those they deal with back in the club and school system. Its a significant boost to the football infrastructure. Tough qualifying games help a team improve but not as much as meaningful trialling, training, coaching and selection processes. Games are the end product of the hard work done on the training pitch.
I just cant see us being able to sustain that if we moved to Asia. Would it hurt us long term?
If we are talking hypotheticals, what about if OFC got merged into CONMEBOL? Make a South America/Pacific confederation with 5 WC spots. CONMEBOL gets an extra half a WC spot and some cannon fodder for their weaker teams, OFC gets regular games against quality opposition. Auckland City could play in the Copa Liberaderos! The distance between Brazil and NZ would be less than the distance between NZ and the Middle East, and probably roughly the same as the distance to Japan
I can't see any reason why Conmebol would want to merge with OFC, not even the half WC spot.
There's no reason any other confederation would want to merge with OFC, and no reason OFC would let NZ go, or any other confederation would want NZ.
This thread just goes round and round in circles.
We need to make the best of being in OFC and that is it.
It's actually a brilliant idea. The benefits to football in NZ would be off the charts. Regular competitive games in NZ with players like Messi, Suarez, and Neymar. There is also talk of a new whole of America champion's league to rival Europe. ACFC vs Miami, Seattle, Boca Juniors, etc.
Would CONMEBOL want us? They probably wouldn't be falling over themselves but then I don't see why they would strongly oppose it either. The 0.5 WC spot certainly helps the case. Argentina or Brazil could get knocked out by the fifth best team in one of the other 0.5 confeds. Wouldn't they rather compete against NZ over the course of their epic qualifying league rather than a two leg playoff against a wild card?
At any rate, I'm not sure that it is really a case of hoping that one of the other confeds takes us in out of the cold. FIFA is heading into a big transition and everything will be on the table.
If we are talking hypotheticals, what about if OFC got merged into CONMEBOL? Make a South America/Pacific confederation with 5 WC spots. CONMEBOL gets an extra half a WC spot and some cannon fodder for their weaker teams, OFC gets regular games against quality opposition. Auckland City could play in the Copa Liberaderos! The distance between Brazil and NZ would be less than the distance between NZ and the Middle East, and probably roughly the same as the distance to Japan
I can't see any reason why Conmebol would want to merge with OFC, not even the half WC spot.
There's no reason any other confederation would want to merge with OFC, and no reason OFC would let NZ go, or any other confederation would want NZ.
This thread just goes round and round in circles.
We need to make the best of being in OFC and that is it.
It's actually a brilliant idea. The benefits to football in NZ would be off the charts. Regular competitive games in NZ with players like Messi, Suarez, and Neymar. There is also talk of a new whole of America champion's league to rival Europe. ACFC vs Miami, Seattle, Boca Juniors, etc.
Would CONMEBOL want us? They probably wouldn't be falling over themselves but then I don't see why they would strongly oppose it either. The 0.5 WC spot certainly helps the case. Argentina or Brazil could get knocked out by the fifth best team in one of the other 0.5 confeds. Wouldn't they rather compete against NZ over the course of their epic qualifying league rather than a two leg playoff against a wild card?
At any rate, I'm not sure that it is really a case of hoping that one of the other confeds takes us in out of the cold. FIFA is heading into a big transition and everything will be on the table.
There's almost no benefit for Conmebol in a hypothetical merge with OFC. Yes, they would have an extra half WC spot but at what price? They would have 11 island nations with no money. The OFC currently receives financial help from the FFA and other sporting organisations, do you think in South America are willing to support 11 countries just to make it a little bit easier to the WC? And I even think that is not right at all. Conmebol teams have win almost every playoff they have played. It only comes to my mind Uruguay loosing to Australia in 2006.
There's already complains from some teams for having to travel all the way to Mexico to play in Copa Libertadores and Sudamericana, so I can't see them flying with a smile on their faces to Papua New Guinea that is even further. And that would be to play a match they know they will win for a 5 or 6 goals margin. NZ teams would play only a few matches (preliminary rounds), probably only 2. Even if they make it to the group stage would be just to get thrashed, one thing is to win a match against an African team in Morroco and another way different is to play against an Argentinian team on Argentinian soil. The Copa Libertadores begins in february so if a hypothetical preliminary round had to be played in Oceania that would mean having to play matches in the Solomon Islands in january with 40 degrees.
How would manage to run the Copa America? Kick out Mexico and the other Concacaf team to allow NZ and an island nation to compete? Or expand it to 16 teams and see New Caledonia loosing to Argentina for 10-0? In South America people really care about the prestige of the tournaments their teams play in, so almost every South American would be against the merger. Currently, Conmebol is the most competitive (am not saying is the best, just the most competitive) confederation, even Venezuela or Bolivia can sometimes challenge the best teams like Brazil, Argentina or Colombia. Nobody would want that to change, even if it comes with an extra half world cup spot. I think is more likely that UEFA takes us in than Conmebol, and I can't see that happening neither.
Argie I don't see any of those arguments as a deal-breaker.
The preliminary Oceania club Champs can be played at any time of year with the winner gaining entry to the following iteration of the Champions League or Copa Libertadores. This is how it works at the moment with the Asb prem winners qualifying for the iteration of OCL that begins about 13 months later.
The Copa America guest spot can go to anyone. Japan has been invited twice before but declined. In fact, if the AWs put in a respectable showing in the 2017WC qualifiers we could conceivably be invited to Copa 2019, regardless of confederation. The difference in credibility between NZ and Jamaica is not light years apart.
I don't necessarily see this as being a decision solely for the confeds. FIFA is ultimately the arbitrator here.
In the world of FIFA politics money talks, and OFC has known so there's no commercial benefit to any other confederation taking us. Australia was a largish, wealthy market for AFC, but the commercial benefits of the new markets that the rest of OFC (including us) represents are just not enough to justify the cost of additional travel etc which would come with merging with OFC. The only thing OFC brings to the table is voting power at FIFA, so any candidate who wanted backing from OFC isn't going to dispense with the confederation - they're going to bribe us with backhanders and age group world cups and training facilities like they already do.
Conmebol doesn't even want Surinam, Guyana or French Guiana and they're part of south american subcontinent
Another thing I think it hasn't been discussed too much is the FCWC money which is very important to run the ASBP. It would be an important lost if the OFC was merged with the AFC
The only way for it to happen is of FIFA said that the ofc is not viable or competitive and to split it with some countries going to Asia and others to the various America federations.
So Gianni Infantino, the new FIFA president, is a proponent of a 40 team World Cup. Could have massive implications for OFC. He's also pledged to double the amount of development money to members so hopefully at least some of that helps OFC teams get better. No doubt he'll still be a corrupt backroom sleaze (after all, he got this far in FIFA politics) but probably a better result for NZF/OFC than the Sheikh winning.
Also interesting, I saw a report the other day that off hand mentioned growing discontent with Australia among AFC members. Apparently the Aussies are viewed as arrogant. What a shock.
Infantino has promised $5m every 4 years to each member nation, plus $40m every 4 years to each confederation, plus another $4m to each confederation on top of that for funding for youth tournaments
The only disadvantage of this is the current members of the NZ football hierarchy are not going to want to get off this gravy train
.@NZ_Football President Deryck Shaw says Infantino looking very closely at moving OFC's 1/2 spot at senior men's WC into Asia @NewshubSport
— Andrew Gourdie (@Andrew_Gourdie) February 26, 2016
.@NZ_Football President Deryck Shaw says Infantino looking very closely at moving OFC's 1/2 spot at senior men's WC into Asia @NewshubSport
— Andrew Gourdie (@Andrew_Gourdie) February 26, 2016
more competitive games for us though.
Really hope they don't go with a 40 team World Cup.
I would love us to become part of the Asia Confed. It solves the Phoenix FFA problems for starters and gives us a chance to aim at the Asian Champions League. Gives the All Whites greater opportunity to get in more Internationals and against stronger teams.
.@NZ_Football President Deryck Shaw says Infantino looking very closely at moving OFC's 1/2 spot at senior men's WC into Asia @NewshubSport
— Andrew Gourdie (@Andrew_Gourdie) February 26, 2016
That would absolutely be the best solution for us if we can work it. OFC winner and 2nd place getter into final round of Asian qualifying which expands to 2 groups of 6 rather than 5. No extra rounds in Asian qualifying as the bye gets filled, no less Asian teams in the final round, and direct qualification for the winner of 3rd vs 3rd across groups, rather than having to go on to an intercontinental playoff. Plus we continue to get pretty much auto qualification into junior and women's World Cups (barring NZF bungles).
I would still prefer OFC and AFC merge.
When you think about it, it would actually save both confederations significant cash if the enlarged the Confed.
Play the early stage qualifiers as East and West Asia in all age grades and sexes. PNG is literally right beside Indonesia, and Aus beside us, New Caladonia etc. Iran can play Afghanistan, Jordan etc with no crazy long haul trips until the last stage or two. Win Win for all concerned in my books.
.@NZ_Football President Deryck Shaw says Infantino looking very closely at moving OFC's 1/2 spot at senior men's WC into Asia @NewshubSport
— Andrew Gourdie (@Andrew_Gourdie) February 26, 2016
That would absolutely be the best solution for us if we can work it. OFC winner and 2nd place getter into final round of Asian qualifying which expands to 2 groups of 6 rather than 5. No extra rounds in Asian qualifying as the bye gets filled, no less Asian teams in the final round, and direct qualification for the winner of 3rd vs 3rd across groups, rather than having to go on to an intercontinental playoff. Plus we continue to get pretty much auto qualification into junior and women's World Cups (barring NZF bungles).
more competitive games for us though.
Really hope they don't go with a 40 team World Cup.
more competitive games for us though.
Really hope they don't go with a 40 team World Cup.
It will create more nonsense games. In a 4-team group every match decides whether you are in or out, even after loosing the first two matches a team could have an opportunity to finish in the top 2. I think 32 teams is perfect, but it seems is inevitable to upgraded to 40.
I think it would make more sense to add 2 more groups and have it so that all group winners and the 6 best 2nd place teams make it through to the knockout stage, rather then having 5 team groups. Not playing the last games simultaneously just creates farcical uncompetitive games where both teams are playing for the draw and things like that.
Infantino has promised $5m every 4 years to each member nation, plus $40m every 4 years to each confederation, plus another $4m to each confederation on top of that for funding for youth tournaments
And all in US dollars too which makes it even more generous - depends though if these proposals make it through the various FIFA committees.
In NZ dollars it's $7.57 million for NZF, $60.57 million for each Confed and $6.06 million for youth tournaments - every four years.
If used wisely, that could make a huge difference to OFC countries in terms of coaching and facilities and improving leagues.
Infantino has promised $5m every 4 years to each member nation, plus $40m every 4 years to each confederation, plus another $4m to each confederation on top of that for funding for youth tournaments
And all in US dollars too which makes it even more generous - depends though if these proposals make it through the various FIFA committees.
In NZ dollars it's $7.57 million for NZF, $60.57 million for each Confed and $6.06 million for youth tournaments - every four years.
If used wisely, that could make a huge difference to OFC countries in terms of coaching and facilities and improving leagues.
If it does come through hopefully it gets put to use developing facilities/players/coaches/competitions etc, rather than being siphoned off into kickbacks and vanity projects like that President's Cup thing
And that Conan is my greatest fear. Used up on admin bullshark and junkets for the boys.
I think it would make more sense to add 2 more groups and have it so that all group winners and the 6 best 2nd place teams make it through to the knockout stage, rather then having 5 team groups. Not playing the last games simultaneously just creates farcical uncompetitive games where both teams are playing for the draw and things like that.
That's exactly what they're talking about when they talk of 40-team World Cup (i.e. 10 groups of 4, not 8 groups of 5).
I think it would make more sense to add 2 more groups and have it so that all group winners and the 6 best 2nd place teams make it through to the knockout stage, rather then having 5 team groups. Not playing the last games simultaneously just creates farcical uncompetitive games where both teams are playing for the draw and things like that.
That's exactly what they're talking about when they talk of 40-team World Cup (i.e. 10 groups of 4, not 8 groups of 5).
Let's join Asia and solve a lot of problems, especially the Nix playing in the ACL.
I am so happy Australia is not in Oceania anymore and I have not idea how to get you guys out other than to fold it but it seems others in Oceania want to keep it the way it is and Asia does not want the extra SP teams...
I think this was the game when Australia decided we must get out ... love the sarcasm of the broadcaster...
Not nice to make fun of the guy who was knocked out though. Oceania only has some credibility because of New Zealand. Scratch that, Oceania has no credibility. The confederation has to be dissolved. Or made a sub confederation of Asia or South America with it's own qualifying path to get into the final 10 of AFC qualifying.
I am so happy Australia is not in Oceania anymore and I have not idea how to get you guys out other than to fold it but it seems others in Oceania want to keep it the way it is and Asia does not want the extra SP teams...
I think this was the game when Australia decided we must get out ... love the sarcasm of the broadcaster...
Fun Fact:
Its from the Documentary - Eat My Goal by James Nesbitt.
Its quite a funny football documentary.
Australia's next world cup draw
A1/B1 Iran Socceroos
A2/B2 SK Japan
A3/B3 Uzbek Saudi
A4/B4 China UAE
A5/B5 Qatar Iraq
A6/B6 Syria Thailand
Australia's next world cup draw
I am so happy Australia is not in Oceania anymore and I have not idea how to get you guys out other than to fold it but it seems others in Oceania want to keep it the way it is and Asia does not want the extra SP teams...
I think this was the game when Australia decided we must get out ... love the sarcasm of the broadcaster...
Fun Fact:
Its from the Documentary - Eat My Goal by James Nesbitt.
Its quite a funny football documentary.
Here's the annoying part: Half of that team were only playing NSL and whipped American Samoa and Tonga and yet with our decent Euro based players we still struggle to a 1-0 win....
I am so happy Australia is not in Oceania anymore and I have not idea how to get you guys out other than to fold it but it seems others in Oceania want to keep it the way it is and Asia does not want the extra SP teams...
I think this was the game when Australia decided we must get out ... love the sarcasm of the broadcaster...
Fun Fact:
Its from the Documentary - Eat My Goal by James Nesbitt.
Its quite a funny football documentary.
Here's the annoying part: Half of that team were only playing NSL and whipped American Samoa and Tonga and yet with our decent Euro based players we still struggle to a 1-0 win....
Well, half that American Samoa team was made up of 16 y/o kids because there were some problems with the visas. I don't think the result would have been that different with the actual national team, but is something to take in consideration
Could this be the start of something?
An important MoU has been signed between OFC and AFC in Mexico today. https://t.co/I61iJTn2hF pic.twitter.com/J7bSpXJ98e
— OFC Oceania Football (@OFCfootball) May 12, 2016