Andy Martin - All you expect and less

Our season has been over for ages

The Russian ultras would like the name of our team though, an extremely racist bunch.

The last time I was in Moscow the security was extremely high because a Dynamo fan was killed when playing one of the Caucasus teams. They were chanting Russia for the Russians in the street, even though the peoples of the Caucasus have been part of the Russian empire since it's beginning.

As far as cost - Moscow is expensive, but you would have thought that the Russian national team would pay expenses? The reason why we don't get teams here is because we don't want to pay the fees, etc. And while it is cold in Moscow in winter the city is seriously set up to deal with it, -15 degrees (or 30+ in summer) is just part of life and everything still functions pretty well. The stadiums aren't covered (although that might have changed with the new spartak stadium that they built for the world cup?) but they are pretty well enclosed.

Ernie sent Carlos and Kenny off to a Costa Rican friendly that was outside the fifa window.

was probably so he could have a break from Carlos' whining for the week

I actually think the majority of the "I don't really want to play and don't give a fudge" players would have been up for a game in Russia. One flight and playing a quality team. Also a league awash with rubles. Think our Tommy would have even been up for that.

Not really from the beginning of the empire, and not necessarily willingly. Russia only managed to fully subjugate the North Caucasus in the late nineteenth century. Then it was occupied by the Nazis in WWII, so after the war Stalin forcibly removed hundreds of thousands of people from the region to Kazakhstan for "collaborating" with the invaders. When they came back Russians had shifted into their homes and taken their farms etc. Then when the USSR collapsed, Chechnya fought and won a war against the Russian state and was de facto independent for a few years until the Russian's rolled back in and crushed them in 1999. Now Chechnya is part of Russia again and ruled with an iron fist by a pro-Putin stooge, but Dagestan just beside it has had an ongoing insurgency against Russian rule. It's kind of been co-opted into global jihadism as a lot of the region is strongly Muslim but the roots of the conflict are very much ethnic and colonial. So there hasn't been much time in the last couple of centuries where there wasn't some sort of conflict between the Russian state/ethnic Russians and the peoples of the Caucasus. I guess it's kind of analogous to the Northern Ireland situation within the UK during the Troubles - historical grievances, population transfers, ethnic or religious differences, terror attacks against security forces and civilians etc. It kind of makes it hard to have an inclusive national identity when groups within your nation are trying to kill each other.

Russian football fans are notoriously racist though, regardless of the specifics.

There's more to the Caucasus than Dagestan and Chechnya. I went on a snow boarding holiday in Karachay Cherkeskia for instance, I also spent some time in Stavropol Krai. Both areas are relatively stable ( although the nz embassy didn't want us to go) The Russians were in the Caucasus from the 1600s with the Cossacks. Although borders fluctuated frequently.

Off topic however.

oh yeah, well off topic. Interesting though. We need a history nerd thread

As an aside you can see why there is unrest in the caucasus areas of Russia. The parts where the slavic people live are well developed if in places quite run down, even in the heart of the taiga. The various towns and cities of the caucasus mountains are pretty much third world, with dirt road, and donkeys pulling carts. The gas for heating hadn't been working for a couple of years in one town, and in the caucasus mountains, near mt Elbrus it gets very cold. The locals blame the terrorism on Al Qaeda, but extremists can only flourish where there is poverty.

Start a history thread, I'd be happy to contribute. Although my history knowledge is mainly based around places that I've visited and what I remember from museums, talking to people, and tours.

Anyway to try and steer this back on topic, considering we don't have a chance of qualifying for the world cup I would have thought the players would have jumped at the option to play a game against a world cup host, in a world cup stadium - and also experience a country that is fairly isolated and hard to get to at the same time (although Kosta might not want to go back).

Can we send Andy Martin to Russia?

No - he's doing some training instead. It's cheaper and less inconvenient.

fixed

fixed

..(sorry wrong thread posted)

Not trying to pick a fight or anything as most have expressed negative opinions about NZF. However to be successful at times means lots of hard work and I copy a little from the full article below. Its also long but it’s the level needed by NZF.

http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/article/2016/03/14/how-giannou-became-anges-undercover-socceroos-trump-card

Should freshly-minted Australia international Apostolos Giannou hit the ground running in green and gold it will prove a justified reward for a coordinated campaign of sleuthing so slick it would make Hercule Poirot proud.

Seemingly lost to Australia after switching allegiances to land of his birth, and even making his debut for Greece in a friendly international against Turkey last November, the dual nationality forward is now set to play for the Socceroos in this month’s FIFA World Cup qualifiers against Tajikistan and Jordan.

The media coverage of his switch painted a picture of Socceroos coach Ange Postecoglou simply jetting to Greece, where Giannou played for Asteras Tripolis before his February move to Guangzhou R&F, and using the gentle art of persuasion to tempt the former Australia and Greece youth international back to the nation where he spent his formative years.

The reality of reuniting Giannou with his former Joeys coach is far more convoluted, complex and involves countess hours of digging, delving and diligence. Not to mention paperwork, emails and negotiations pinging back and forth between Australia, Greece and Zurich over six months.

Now, after 14 goals in 22 games for Asteras, Giannou, 26, is being touted as a possible successor to ageing icon Tim Cahill - after he was granted permission by FIFA in January to complete his switch from Greece back to Australia.

Time will tell whether he becomes Postecoglou's go-to man for goals, but the fact he is even a chance is down to the persistence and tenacity of a Melbourne-based player agent who dug deeper than Poirot on a cold case, the legal eagles at FFA, with a little helping hand from SBS.

With Giannou mindful not to trumpet his intentions, the work by his representatives at FIA Sports Management and FIFA-registered intermediary Jon-Paul Michail, in tandem with the FFA, was kept under tight wraps.

It would all have been academic had Giannou been given any minutes off the bench by Greece a year ago in a UEFA EURO 2016 qualifier against Hungary.

But the door remained open and the clandestine journey to bring him back into the green and gold fold painstakingly unfolded from mid-2015.

It picked up steam In October 2015 whenThe World Gamepublished an article on his form for Asteras, highlighting the ambiguity over his international allegiances. Giannou declared his ardour for both nations but behind the scenes, and off the record, he was leaning heavily towards Australia.

The article opened some minds and provoked calls in Greece for him to be handed a debut without further ado, while in Australia Michail made contact with the FFA to alert them to Giannou’s ever-growing reputation in Greece, not just in the league but also in national team circles.

"There was a lot of confusion about Giannou’s eligibility initially, with even suggestions that Giannou had chosen not to represent Australia and unequivocally pledged his allegiance to Greece – which never occurred," Michail said.

"This misleading information was also communicated to Ange Postecoglou who had enquired about Giannou’s eligibility when first appointed to the job in 2013. Because of this no further action was taken at the time."

Once that was cleared up the investigation in to his eligibility began in earnest.

According to FIFA edicts, a player may switch national allegiances only once. Having first represented Australia and then Greece at youth level, a key factor was to discover if the Greek FA had pursued the proper paperwork to switch Giannou’s allegiance from Australia to Greece.

Giannou had no recollection of any such paperwork being discussed or executed.

Upon further research by FIA Sports Management, when Giannou first played for a Greek youth team in 2008, FIFA regulations did not require paperwork or official change of association declarations to be completed.

This turned out to be a mystery-busting discovery which was followed two months later by Postecoglou reaching out to FIA to confirm his interest in Giannou as a Socceroos prospect.

Ironically, just two days later, Giannou was called up by Greece for friendly matches against Luxembourg and Turkey.

FIFA law dictates that a player must heed national team calls and attend any and all camps. So that's what he did.

He made his debut for as a 70th minute substitute against Turkey in Istanbul on 17 November. But, since it was purely a friendly, it did not derail the campaign.

Over the next two months, the FIA and the FFA compiled what they thought was a compelling case to put to FIFA. It included proof of citizenship, migration paperwork, movement records and Australian and Greek youth team personal records.

The verdict they were hoping arrived in the affirmative in late-January. It was at that point that Postecoglou booked his passage to Athens to meet the forward he had last worked with nine years earlier to discuss the future, with both on the same page.

But subterfuge surrounding his international future remained right up until the eleventh hour with fears in the Giannou camp that a leaking of his switch before his move to Guangzhou R&F was ratified might have provoked a miffed Greek FA into stalling over his International Transfer Certificate (ITC) and even scuppering the deal.

By then, though, Postecoglou had got his man.

I suspect that Giannou's sudden willingness to change his national allegiance was not so much to do with wanting to be a Socceroo, but rather more to do with his recent move to the moneyed up Chinese League where he can now be signed as an Asian player. As such, I believe that most of the leg-work would have been done by Giannou's representatives and is not so much a triumph of the FFA - he pretty much just landed in their laps.

Bingo .... you just explained NZF ....

You must be right FFA had nothing to do but sit back and wait for the player to sort it all out .... if you truly believe that then it explains the working of NZF... however right you may be about the player wanting to shift to make it happen required heaps nay mega heaps to the power of paper work and negotiation by FFA .

I also love the way in which you assume that he grew up in Australia and his parents live in Australia as does the rest of his family had nothing to do with it ... however all FFA had to do was sit back and let the player sort it out twas so easy for them could have left it till a day or so before the WCQ ... 

If you actually read my post you will see that I never said the "FFA did nothing", but rather that the player's representatives (in my belief) did most of the work (not all). In my opinion this all being completed just before the Chinese season started suggests that he was driving it and had the need for it to be completed in time for his move. I'm sure the FFA checked the FIFA regulations as well and had some paperwork to fill out.

As to your beloved assumption I supposedly made that family reasons didn't come into his decision, I was obviously just not listing every possible reason why he might change allegiance (I love how you assumed that his partners shopping habits and the quality of training facilities weren't a factor). We don't all want to write a tome when we post and prefer to stick to relevant information.

In some ways the case of Giannou is similar to Andrew Durante's change in nationality a few years back from Australia to New Zealand (including a near run-on for his prior national team that would have prevented the change). In Durante's case I'm sure NZF checked the FIFA regulations to see if it was possible and discussed the relevant issues with FIFA and provided whatever information they required. Like the Giannou case, the change of national allegiance was successful, so I guess NZF can also be capable of "lots of hard work" and reach this "level" - whatever that is. Does this similar case with the same outcome help to "explain the working of NZF" for you? Maybe NZF can between fudge ups also do the "required heaps nay mega heaps to the power of paper work and negotiation".

It seems both organizations are capable of occasional competence, but lets hope things don't get so bad that we hold a parade every time they perform one of their core roles successfully.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/lawre...

The FIFA eligibility Exemptions could be illegal.

Buzzing

OK its easy you are totally right all your assumptions ... like he just transferred to China so the work done 9 months before was done by his agent yep that makes sense ...so 9 to 10 months before the transfer his agent prepared all this paperwork before he even transferred not days but months in advance.

Your right to Andrew Durante' was just about to be selected in a Socceroo team and was being pressured by FFA officials to play for Australia so that is a logical way to compare especially as both were not living in Australia at the time....

Totally understandable your not knowing that his parents live in Australia, most of his family live in Australia and he spent most of his childhood in Australia tis much easier to say he needed this to fit into a Chinese side again no reason to doubt your logical and totally understandable how one could over look a players past including playing for junior Australian sides... Also he told the Australian coach he wanted to play for Australia.

I guess you are right that NZF got AD transfer right .... hHHHHHmmmmm I throught this thread was essentially asking how the current management don't get it right when as you said in the past they did...

But mate please continue with your logic it makes so much sense and it sounds a lot better too ... and yer FFA as you said just did a little his agent did all the work by understanding in almost a year latter a Chinese team would buy his contract... what a great agent to have with such foresight..

Midfielder - Can you please stop posting entire articles in threads. It's potentially illegal. The link and a short blurb is fine. I've warned you plenty of times so it's about time you listen.

Also very hard to read through and comprehend lol

Oh, that's a surprise.....

Hello NZF and Anthony Hudson if these Exemptions could possibly be illegal be careful who you pick for the OFC qualifiers the Island nations will be ready to pounce

Midfielder is certainly feeling very passive-aggressive today!

Yeah, the exemption process might be difficult and complex but that absolutely does not excuse the NZF eligibility shambles. For a start,  NZF can't even get their story straight. First they said they thought the players were eligible, then they said they thought they might not have been and if they sought exemptions they would have been declined so they played the guys regardless, and then just the other day I think Martin said NZF didn't even know you could get exemptions. And none of our kids who were effected by the saga had played for other countries at age group level IIRC so their exemption applications wouldn't have been complex. 

So, yeah, getting Giannou exempted might have taken a lot of work, but I'm not really sure how that situation is relevant to our eligibility shambles.

As for the illegal thing, that sounds like BS to me. Basically they seem to be saying that because FIFA statutes don't say you can get an exemption then exemptions are illegal. But I'd say the exemption process is commonplace enough and has occurred publicly enough that it's basically the sports law equivalent of common law or international norms. It might not be codified and written down but there's enough precedent to say it exists.

I always thought that saying if we applied for exemptions and they were declined we could never play the player was a bad choice of words, in the context it seems that it was a throwaway line based on discussions with their lawyers after the team was kicked out of the tournament.

some players still do not have there exemptions, i think i heard about 6 or 7 and james musa is one of those.

OK ... soory won't do it again ... 

I thought Musa's case would have been fairly simple.  

While here in the UK he never came close to playing for Plymouth Argyle at youth level, never mind senior football prior to his family immigrating, if he was a promising youngster, then fair enough but he did not flourish here.  He may have a Janner accent now but I'd say he's kiwi through and through, far more so then say Tommy Smith.

This happened at Sunday's game.

i thought it would be simple as well, talked to his mother a few weeks ago and she was not impressed by the way it has and is being handled, i think james was about 7 when they came to new zealand

I hear someone got threatened with a punch in the face over this banner...

I was *so* close to earning by Ultra stripes by being punched. So close!

These pro-Martin vs anti-Martin ultra wars are getting out of hand

Why should Yellow Fever put forward such a view? - wait for it.......

That fun policeman was being a nob though, shark, I could see that from row C that he was being one. I noticed none of his mates came to assist him which told me he was not well liked by them either.

Why not? A couple of people made a small banner and displayed it during a game. How is that the whole of yellow fever putting forward a view? 

When it is Yellow and Black and displayed in the middle of the zone it is fair to assume it has been seen as a Yellow Fever statement