Andy Martin - All you expect and less

Could there be a bit of an arms race type situation here though. Young kiwi players are competing for foreign spots in pro teams (with the exception of those in the Nix) against guys from other countries where training and development pathways have also improved. So the same number of kids might be making it as pros as before but if we hadn't introduced new pathways etc then less guys would be making it pro than previously, because the quality of young players coming through has generally improved across a lot of countries in the last decade or two.

I dunno if this is true or not, I'm just speculating. I know that quite a few other countries have been instituting national youth development models recently though

Hmm I don't buy it.  Surely off set by the fact that there are loads more professional leagues now

Fair enough. I was actually thinking the other day about how we really seem to struggle to produce players who read the game well and play smart football. We've started to produce more technically proficient players than perhaps we used to but we don't seem to produce midfielders with vision and intelligence or defenders who just seem to be in the right place at the right time. Reid and Smith didn't come through our youth system so don't count. Where are the heirs to Nelsen, Elliott, and Vicelich in the next generation? Tuiloma maybe in a few years, who else?

Is there a blind spot in our development methods regarding tactical and game awareness? Have we focused on skills but forgotten smarts?

I don't know enough about the pathways and youth coaching in NZ to say, but what do people who know more than me think?

Unfortunately it seems kiwi kids seem to only focus on English football rather than other European leagues.

I actually think it's harder to get a pro gig for a Kiwi now than it was 10-15 years ago. 

• We are visa/foreign players in our own pro (A) league and Aussie semi pro/youth leagues
• US College sojurns are not the pathway to MLS they once were because more African, South and Central American, Middle Eastern, Asian player/students are in that system than there used to be
• Euro visa travel/work rules have tightened and are continuing to do so
• Euro and Asian club scouting networks have vastly increased resources and reach in the period - many thousands more players from every other region are competing with probably the same number/a few more young kiwis for a contract

Another reason I'm a supporter of a 2nd NZ club in the A league.

Agreed, dumb and getting dumber imo for various reasons. Boyd in Portugal, Thomas in Netherlands, Tuiloma in France is the way to go.

I think personally that as before, the very best will make it and others will not and no amount of pathways, camps, development plans etc etc is really going to change that fundamentally.  Also our best pure athletes play Rugby or League

To be fair, he's been unlucky with Bielsa leaving when he did, Bill playing in Oceania tourney when he should have been at pre season with OM, hopefully he gets back there soon, but when does his contract finish - 2019? The other one to add to that would be Rojas in Switzerland.

Would Rojas count in this argument, considering he went to Europe after proving himself in the A League?

 Regardless, I agree with the general sentiment. Scandinavia seems to have given a lot of young kiwis a chance too. The UK might be appealing for the language a and cultural similarities but it does seem harder to establish a pro career there for some reason

Auckland. Eric Watson, Owen Glenn and David Gallop have had plenty of league discussions over the years. Is Andy interested in fostering a discussion between Gallop and either of Watson or Glenn (and any other interested parties like Ivan Vuksich) - 2 code football franchise based at Mt Smart?

Surely NZF would like it at 'the home of football', North Harbour.

Thinking finances and business smarts is much more important than wherever NZF offices happen to be.

Are our nz age group teams performing better than 10, 15, 20 yrs ago?

Someone will do the analysis, but youth world cups are rarely catalysts for pro opportunities. When is the last time a kiwi got picked up after playing in such a tourney - Jack Pelter to Sunderland in 2007 because he had a Brit passport?

2011 Under 17's - Luke Adams to Birmingham C, Rhys Jordan to Bristol C ???

Also our best pure athletes play Rugby or League

I am stunned by this comment. It is absolute rubbish.

Figure you were sent to a private school. Of course it's true. The most talented natural sporting players in this country of any code are Maori and Islanders who play league and rugby. 

If they played football we would be a top 30 team. Not 180th.

Care to explain your view?

get real....

Where I come from all rugby players come from private schools. Footballers, like most countries in the world, are grass roots both in terms of schools and working conditions. It is the game of the people whereas rugby is the game of the big boys!!!

Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for top players in any sport. It takes great dedication and effort to get to the top but....... please don't compare a rugby player with a footballer. Top footballers are athletes of the highest quality. Most footballers could play rugby to a good standard but the majority of rugby players wouldn't last five minutes in a proper game if football. They couldn't outrun a footballer over any distance over 200 metres because their legs would tie up. But not only would the footballer run the 200, 400, 800, 1500 and 5 thousand metre race they could probably do it twice! Don't confuse being athlete with being someone built for a particular game. yes Maori and islander rugby players are great specimens of men but they are not true athletes. They are designed to sprint over short distances and then have breaks in between

And if you really feel that maori's or islanders would get us into the top 30 in the world you really are a fool.

I was going to say it was b.s.. you've missed the point entirely. It's not about the relative athleticism of adult rugby players and footballers, it's about the fact that at school the naturally fastest, fittest, strongest most agile boys are pushed into football. In countries where football is the main sport they would play fooball.  As for the "Not true athletes thing"... I just... wow...

Same deal In America with American Football.  Lots of great athletes play AFL instead of football in Aussie too. 

Dan Carter would have been an awesome footballer, guaranteed

Surprised nobody has pointed out that our best current All White is a Maori. But yeah, how is this even about race? Feels like this conversation has very suddenly crossed some sort of line. 

A certain Oceania player of the century was also Maori...

I think the point stands though that football and cricket are not the sports of choice for Maori and Pacific Islanders, in the way that both rugby codes, netball and basketball are - for a variety of reasons; and I don't think that will vastly change without a somewhat miraculous and sustained change on the part of football. On a related issue, I note AFL has been recruiting very hard in Porirua City in recent times.

Remind me how long a football field is again?

If that is true it's because that is what rugby players train for. They train to be big and have upper body strength because they is what the sport demands. If they trained for football they would be better at football.

And saying they aren't athletes is just retarded.

Surely the real issue is the opposite? Increasingly whiteys are taking their young lads out of rugby and league because they don't want them to get bulldozed and put them in football. It's also the "trendy, international" thing to do. I don't know about where you live but there is no shortage of Maori or Pasefika people playing the round-ball game where I am.

These guys are athletes regardless of what sport they play. I'll admit that some rugby players (the Franks brothers, etc) may not have made great footballers, many would. Rugby isn't just a game for big boys, the likes of Aaron Smith, Cruden, Carter, Barrett, Ben Smith etc, would all be good footballers. Luke McAlister once trialled at Manchester United. 

As for the idea that Maori and pacific players wouldn't improve us, there's been many top Maori footballers apart from the Rufer family and Reid, there's Logan Rogerson, Tamati Williams, TWH, Leo Bertos, Jeremy Christie, Rory Fallon, Ngata, Coveney, Richard Mulligan, Johnny Enoka  and Rikki van Steden.

And as for Pacific Islanders, Tim Cahill is Samoan, Christian Karembeu played over 50 times for France (winning the 1998 world cup) and had a club career spanning 15 years in top leagues in Europe (France, Italy Spain, England, Greece and Switzerland), Roy Krishna is one of the first names on our team sheet.

The idea that Maori and Pacific Islanders are built for rugby or league and can't excel in other sports is just wrong. These guys are incredible athletes and would succeed in any sport.

Different point to the point he/he is making, which is correct.  Football is not the natural choice in those communities

At the same time certain body types are beneficial to different sports. Not many 6ft7/2m tall players in football but most locks are that height, then comparing to basketball and people taller than 2m. Different athletic ability and size is prized in rugby, football still has a greater focus on skill (allows relatively non-athletic types to participate at the highest level) - something many non-football people don't appreciate, think that like rugby just need good athletes to pick up the sport in their teens which is too late for most to develop the skill required to compete at the highest level in football.

Okay, let's go back on topic now. Feel free to start a new topic in general football discussion if you really want to keep discussing this.

Krishna is Indian Fijian though not Melanesian

Noted Patrick, but just want to make one final point - the highlighted statement is simply not true at an elite level these days.

Sure it still is, there are players playing at the highest level, and yes just about every player takes their physical preparation far more seriously than 'Jan Molby' days, you still have players that are not athletes primarily or to put it another way - not near the top% of athletic output in their position still playing at a high level (which would not be the case for a sport like rugby and players picked for the ABs). Carrick, Busquets, Pirlo, Mata, Kroos etc. - mostly midfielders that I can think of, that are not overly strong, large, fast, agile, fit - just smart and skilful.

See I also think that is a misrepresentation of Rugby as well, Rugby is actually a very technical and skilful sport - it is not simply a matter of who is biggest/strongest/fastest

What sponsorship deal is Andy about to announce? Or who should he be targeting? Surely he's aiming higher than a USA scholarships company?