Andy Martin - All you expect and less

It's easy to smash the hell out of NZF but I really don't see with all of this. Abbey wants something that is completely unrealistic and I believe she has some facts wrong along the way.

She says NZF have had a surplus the last 8 years - no that's creative accounting and that's been addressed many time on here before she has. They run a loss pretty much every year. That is a fact and NZF admit they are at the mercy of 4 year funding cycles tied to WC qualification.

They get the same as AWs per diem - ok that's fair and rightfully so

FFs get HPS funding, AWs don't - not an NZF issue and probably not central to the argument but a contributing agent

AWs play stuff all games and those they do are away because of costs. FFs play a truckload and most of them are away too but I'll profess to being unsure of that mix. They can choose to play less if they want to lessen the burden...

There is an international teams fund which is used for international teams (and showing a profit on the bottom line) so there is no way to tell what the funding mix is between AWs and FFs - NZF could make that clearer.

Why is it NZFs fault that football on a global scale has more interest in men's football than women's? That's a societal issue but if she has an issue with the lack of money in the women's game, again, that's not NZFs fault. In relation to that, because Winston, Kosta and co all make a wedge is not NZFs fault. The reason she and her cohorts are professional is because of the shop window the FFs put them squarely in front of.

Many a budding sports person has had to do it tough. If you want to play for your country in a sport that's not cricket or rugby, guess what, you are going to have to decide if a career being a lawyer is more important or playing for your country. Years ago before professionalism came about, people had to find jobs that worked in around their sport. The shot put guy Tom Walsh is a builder and works his ass off so he can get time to train and go to events but he admits to sacrifices. If these girls (and I will assume the age is young) are not interested in menial jobs that are not glamorous and require them to get off their snapfaceinstatwit to actually work at hours that don't fit in with their mates and work around their trainings because they CHOOSE the FFs as their current life priority then the issue is not with NZF, it's with entitlement and that's all I read in this. Entitlement and the word I find using a lot these days, millennials. The women's basketball program is a mess because there is zero cash and they have to mostly pay their own way. These ladies should be careful what they whinge about when they sign that pro contract that the FFs helped them get.

Again I go back to the one fundament issue here that is the massive elephant in the room. NZF have no money and already run at a loss. You cannot make it appear out of thin air. To get a bigger slice of zero = zero and there is even less folk lining up to throw money at women's football. I also wonder if Abbey and her cohorts are prepared to go to these other departments/programs run by NZF that could get their cash taken away from them to justify why their program should suffer just so they don't have to go out and find a job. Bet they don't.

I wonder what these teams will cry when the budget comes out in 2018 and there is even less cause we are not going to Russia and this 4 year cycle was 'saved' by Mexican media money.

Apart from your old man rant against millennials I totally agree JV ;)

Where am I comparing football to Rugby? You were talking about top athletes dropping out to pursue other interests or a career. I said this also happens in Rugby.

To me there is also an element of, "I have had enough of International Football, been to 2 Olympics and two world cups. I have established my pro career now so lets go out and leave a ticking bomb in the corner"

Is there evidence  of players on the fringes of FF's selection dropping out because they can not afford to continue to put in the yards required?

I am in no way against the idea of paying the retainer Abby seems to be asking but someone just do the sums for a minute, say you have 30 men and 30 women on this retainer of say $40k, suddenly you are up to $2.4m a year. Lot of coin for an operation barely breaking even (reserves are not a surplus Abby) That is around a quarter of Income.

So the question again, where do you cut to come up with that sort of coin? Or which of the hundreds of potential sponsors NZF has kicking the door down wanting a piece of the action do NZF get on board/ Or does Andy and Anfony get out and start doing sausage sizzles at Albany Bunnings on a Saturday Morning?

A lot of the dudebros here wondering what on earth these "ladies" are "whinging" about aren't taking into account that Sarah Gregorius, Hope Solo and other international stars are giving Abby the thumbs up, so obviously it's not just her. But don't take it from another whinging lady, maybe the words of a man, Mr. Jeremy Ruane, may carry more weight. Or our old mate Enzo.

I will take on the argument about "no interest", though. That is a chicken-egg situation. We know how badly the W-League ladies are treated, not only pay-wise being made to play in heat conditions that put Nix v Adelaide of the other week to shame, etc. Meanwhile, Aussie rules is packing out 20,000 seaters for their women's competition - even getting W-League players to code-switch. What's going on?

the 'no interest' group includes females. Until that changes..

ok.

Point out where my opinion is wrong.

you are a dudebro

Good point made by Glenn Larmer this morning on Radio Racing Sport interviewing Andy Martin. Glenn questioned the waste of money on legal expenses (said to be $500k) by NZ Football appealing the disqualification of The Under 23s from the Olympic qualifying tournament. 

It was patently clear that it would be  a fruitless appeal  (because they were guilty) but Martin and the NZ Football Board had to go on a "cover their backsides" charade so to hell with the expense.

Sometimes I disagree with women, sometimes I disagree with men. People coming out to support her doesn't make me change my mind. 

I also don't think any said there was no interest, just that was less interest, which is emperically true if you look at any measure especially across the globe where money from world cups comes from. FIFA's record on the women's game is appalling and doesn't look to be getting better. Yeah there is a chicken and egg situation and the way that gender roles are shaped and reinforced through social behaviors makes it hard for women's sport to gain traction, but those are huge issues which aren't what she was talking about. Or if that was what she was talking about she chose a strange way of phrasing it.

I don't know how the completely different sporting market which AFL and the FFA operate in is relevant to NZF allegedly not compensating our national women's team enough. 

That's completely true, but comes under the general NZF incompetence category rather than the women are getting a rough deal category. I think.

yeah but not neccessarily relevant..

Glenn's point was that this was money wasted and could have been put into the game

who says that women's elite football is next on the priority list though? 

So no-one interested in taking on Ruane or Giordiani's arguments, then? I can't make the argument myself because I don't play or train at that level. It's okay, they're men, you can argue against them without being run over by a PC combine harvester.

I read Enzo's - and he didn't have an argument or solution. Just a whinge

And JR's talked of the NZ Football foundation.

They have money, and dish out grants (can't find info to whom) but rely on dividend from Capital to continue to do so.

It is, not a bottomless Pit

So despite my invitation for you to point out the holes in my argument and me also not training or playing at that level, your answer is to stick your fingers in your ears and go 'well I'm a girl and your a guy so nah nah nah' and pretend that cause you can't hear us, we must be wrong. Also because we have a dick, doesn't mean we are a: wrong or b: absolutely sexist and arguing around gender cause thats how every single man in the world is. In fact as I mentioned, the FFs should absolutely get the same per diem and its hard to know NZFs funding mix cause they don't itemise that. If it shows and imbalance, it should be corrected but we have nothing to go on.

If you have nothing relevant to contribute for or against the argument, or chose to keep framing this as 'you have dicks so are default sexist in your opinion' go away

Argue the facts Doloras not the body parts we have

Jesus wept, it's tough arguing against people who are arguing against things you think you said. This clearly isn't a gender argument because Jeremy and Enzo - people who know something about top-flight women's football - agree with Abby and every senior player globally who's commented. Especially funny because the YF know-alls are now defending NZF and Andy Martin, an organisation which we all know is not famous for its competence or transparency.

Here's another viewpoint:

Jesus Wept indeed

Point out where anyone has said fully funding the Ferns is a stupid idea and should not happen.

What everyone of us "know alls" has asked is "how do you make it happen" 

I would personally love to know because chances are it would make funding Women's football in my club a whole lot easier than it presently is

Playing a sport at an elite level is no guarantee of compensation though, and a massive discrepancy between men and women is sadly not confined to football. There are plenty of sports where people put in huge amounts of effort and sacrifice their personal and working lives to be near the top in the world but receive no money. I know a guy who does some sort of freestyle mountain biking and has gone to world champs and trains for hours a day and is entirely self funded. In terms of sexist outcomes, rugby has heaps more money than football in this country yet the women's team (which for a long time was more successful than the men's) is fully amateur. There is obviously an injustice there but again, I don't see how that relates to the specific concerns that Erceg raised specifically regarding NZF. And NZF's lack of support for national sides doesn't look particularly gendered. IIRC the junior team which was expected to pay their own way to an international tournament was boys, not girls. 

It's not up to NZF to correct for the fact that there are winter clubs around that splash cash on male players pursuing god knows what.

Good luck running the women's game in this country without men Doloras. 

If you have given a fraction of your time to women's footy that some of the males pointing out the practicalities of this have -  then I would be surprised.

All the best with your all men are against women's football argument though..

Enzo says it is, so it is

Absolutely this.

If the AWs were being paid the the FFs were not, I'd argue to take the cash off the AWs and give it to the FFs cause they are more successful and as was pointed out, from there, come the 'riches'

The fundamental fact this - there is no money so nothing will ever change.

The point Glen Larmer raised is also valid too. 500k would help across many fields but what is the priority pot, who knows.

If I recall rightly, you were behind the Karori womens teams for a few years? Am I right? So then what would you know with your 'dick in your pants' *eye roll*

I read this article and there were some good points in it but also some very poor ones too.

I would also point out to you as the head cheerleader of the Hope Solo fan club, what would Hope Solo know about NZF, the womens game here and how it is all funded? All she is doing is supporting a mate (which is fair enough too) without knowing the background.

Again, I disagree with some of the fundamental points there. It's not a workers rights argument because they're not workers, they're sportspeople. Also, being the best at something doesn't mean you get money, that's not how markets work. Finally, where is this money to support the team, to effectively make them full-time professionals, going to come from NZF doesn't have any.

That's not defending NZF, it's just saying that the throw money at it approach is a pipe dream.

Probably worth pointing out that the FFs play a lot more meaningful games than the AWs, which of course means that the players miss more time from their day jobs, but surely having a full calendar is a good thing? Considering how much angst has been worked up around here regarding NZF not arranging games for the AWs

This not an argument on men vs women, what the AWs get paid vs what the FFs get paid. 

It is about what NZF expects of the FFs and how that impacts a lot of them to be able to sustain a decent standard of living.

NZF expects them to move to Auckland or commute on a regular basis, to train full time and be available for travel up to months per year. 

Maybe NZF need to dial that back or put their money where their mouth is, Erceg is obviously passionate about representing NZ and wants the Football Ferns to be as competitive as they can be.

Isn't that contradictory?

If shes so passionate about the FF's then why is she saying she wont play for them unless she gets paid more?

I'm not passionate about my job, and if they stopped paying me or didn't pay me enough I would stop turning up.

The things I am passionate about I spend my own time and my own money on because I love them.

And if its not men vs women as you say, then where is the extra money supposed to come from?

And if NZF cant magic up some extra cash then you are saying they should ask for less time and effort? So they should stop expecting the best from the best athletes?  

Maybe you should listen to her interview on RNZ.

She is not asking for herself - she is taking a stand for all the others that aren't professional footballers, making sacrifices and struggling to make ends meet.

Can you share your link?

The article I read said she was moving on "to places where female footballers are appreciated, respected and endorsed".

Is she sending that appreciation, respect and endorsement back to the others?  Because otherwise is that not a move for yourself?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/896...

I don't think it is that simplistic, while NZF might want them to move to Auckland, the ultimate choice is down to the athlete. It is a common choice that has to be made, even 30 odd years ago when I had to make a decision between my then job [that turned into a 23 year long career] and an American College scholarship. In fact we all have to make similar choices in life that don't involve sport - its just the way things are and you're not forced to do anything you don't want to do.

And if they did they would be criticised for not giving them the chance to adequately prepare for the major tournaments. They can't win here without growing a massive money tree.

From NZF's own strategic plan

"Ferns medal at Rio Olympics 2016 and Tokyo Olympics 2020. Ferns reach quarter finals of FIFA World Cups 2019 and 2023." 

How do you expect this to happen when you are operating as amateurs? We all know there is not enough money, so either change the expectation or get the money. And yes other sports and sports people do it tough or tougher, but that's not an excuse for not trying to change things. To me it's a shame this argument has become focussed on money because I think what she was pointing out is that NZF is a shambles and expects players to be professional yet everything they do is amateur

Ok lower the expectation and have even less money to play with.

Solid move

that it their 'plan' because if it wasn't they wouldn't get HighPerformance $

Didn't Abbey open a can of worms! Haven't even read the article - but reading the YF forum, think have fair idea what she said. Few quick points -

Doloras don't agree with everything you have said, but respect for being the almost sole XX chromosome voice on the forum. That can't always be easy, and the 'traditional' male sports need to embrace their female players & fans not shun them.

I live in Brisbane. The AFL is easier smartest large sports organisation in Aussie. They cleverly saw an empty sporting window of February-March, when the cricket season is effectively finished and the AFL men's comp is yet to start - so launched their new women's comp in this window. It has been a major success. Still your rabid AFL tragic would watch a flea circus if the fleas were decked in the guernseys of his footy team. AFL fans are the closet Aussie has to the tribalism of say your English club football fan. The club comp is everything - there being no state of orgin or international AFL.  Having the women's AFL teams based on the mens AFL club teams was a masterstroke. Still is a 'honeymoon' 1st year for the ladies AFL - so be interesting to see if interest drops in following seasons.

Wouldn't getting a Kiwi women's semi-pro side in the W League solve many of Abbey's gripes? With flights, accommodation etc not cheap of course. However isn't there a major company like say Lorna Jane - that has an almost solely female customer base that could be approached to be the major sponsor?

One of the very first sentences she says is that at a certain point you aren't getting back enough for what you are putting in and she has hit that point so is retiring.

Hows she not talking about herself?  I'll listen to the whole thing later as its long but from the few minutes I listened to she talked about players paying the bills and her not getting enough for the work she puts in.

It sounds like unless NZF magics up some money there is no option. 

I'm fairly sure everyone here would love for the FFs to be full time professional footballers, we would probably love the SS prem and a women's equivalent to be fully professional, and all of our Kiwi players to be making mega bucks.  After we all we probably all support those teams.

And a strong majority of us think the FFA is a shambles, but what we aren't hearing is reasonable ways for money to appear and pay the players more.

If a player decides they aren't getting enough back (financially, emotionally, passion, etc.) then its absolutely their right and smart to hang up their boots.  If she is no longer passionate enough to play for the FFs for the love of the game alone and with the high workload then she absolutely should retire, and some dirty details about the FFA and its shambles sounds great, but its framed to sound greedy.