Building on the Phoenix Momentum

Building on the Phoenix Momentum

I see Stu Jacobs has been reported as having come to the defence of Ryan Nelsen following the criticism of Nelsen by the Phoenix after his comments that the Phoenix aren't doing enough to develop football in NZ (although, Jacobs' defence of Nelsen appears to be neutral in regard to those comments).  I'm sure that Nelsen is highly professional and a decent bloke.  Nonetheless, he was misleading (or misled) and plainly wrong in his remarks about the Phoenix, hence the enormous backlash he rightly received on this forum and Tony P's public rebuttal on behalf of the Phoenix, which was measured and professional, but appropriate.

Many of us have differing views on the respective roles and responsibilites of the NZFA and the Nix with respect to developing NZ football. One thing I think we all will agree on is that the relationship between the Nix and the NZFA is a very important one for NZ football.

Whitby boy2008-08-15 11:59:50

Thanks for your comments Whitby Boy.  You're right - both the Phoenix and NZF are important components of the NZ Football landscape and need to work together if the game is going to significantly progress in this country over the next couple of decades.

What does the "Moved" icon/status mean and how is this status decided.  The topic was only posted yesterday

By the way, last night I read an interesting interview with Stu Jacobs on the back page of The Dominion Post.  He brought up some interesting issues and views related to this topic.  Anyone else see it? What do you think?

It means the mods think this thread belonged in a different forum from the one you posted it in - if I remember right you put it in Wellington Phoenix Discussion, but the mods thought it would be better placed in the All Whites/NZ International forum. It doesn't mean anything bad

jeepers that was long, some good points tho... i needa lie down. lol

Thanks for replying Robbwatson.

AXMFC, two points. One, how can you consider canning the NZFC, when all of the guys in the U20s play, or have played in that league? There are certainly some problems with it, but what are you suggesting, that we go back to even weaker regional leagues? We need to keep at the NZFC and continue to strengthen it. There are a lot of good footballers coming out of the top 3 clubs, if the rest could lift their game it would be a decent standard (That does a disservice to HB who are greatly improved). The NZFC already has a youth league, what are you actaually suggesting happens here.

A lot of the other stuff you mention is already going on. The IPDP is a regional development programme. Ricki Herbert IS the national director of coaching already!

Do you think if SPARC would give us money we wouldn't be getting it? Unfortunately participation rates are not what SPARC funds at. The funding model doesn't suit us as for better or worse it rewards winning in a minority sport above success in a sport like football which is widely played.

Second, the NZ national team will always be the flagship for NZ football, not the Phoenix. The Phoenix may be a side playing out of wellington but they are a club team and as such, there will always be people with or against them, especially outside of wellington (and there is no reason that shouldn't be the case). I'm not saying pend loads a money on the AWs but they need to be playing games together. You say focus on the U17s and the U20s, what more do you suggest is done? Both the 17s and 20s had excellent buildups to their respective tournaments last year, the problem is these ar 2 and 4 year tournaments, they can't get games every week. Plus they aren't pros.

I'm not saying that everything is all rosy, but there is very limited money around, and I think you'd find a very public backlash if you suggested canning the AWs and pointed to the Phoenix as their replacement.james dean2008-08-16 19:18:33

JD I'm not sure Ricki is still High Performance Manager.  I think he gave up that role when he moved to Phoenix.  John Herdman's the man in that seat now I think.

Otherwise you're right, and there are other things that are already going on:

- There are already coaches employed by NZF in the regions.  Each Federation has a fully funded coaching staff member paid for by NZF: Bev Priestman in Wellington, Aaron MacFarlane in Auckland, not sure who the others are.

- There is a National Academy programme in place again for youngsters building up to the next U17s.  That was defunct for a while and has been reinstated, although the kids have to pay for it.

- The talented players ARE playing all year round.  In Wellington for example the Federation run a summer academy that kicks in straight after the season finishes and runs through the summer, encompassing Federation tournament (when there is one).

axmfc there's nothing wrong with a lot of what you say but I think you might be a little out of touch with what's actually going on in the game here.

One thing I DO agree with is that we need to import some coaching expertise.

This I think is the most important need in our country. If there is money to invest, it should be the coaching standard that would install great football ethics in our country. That is where most things start to assist football development for the future, Australia realised that they are lacking and we should realise that too.

Lets be honest, SPARC are only interested in supporting Rugby or Americas Cup Boat racing...Oh and how many of SPARC employees are on 100k+ per year?? Lonegunmen2008-08-17 02:15:33

Despite the allegations made recently they have categorically proved that the Admin costs they have are around 12% and that is considered a reasonable amount for a body of that size.

The problem is how they prioritise the investments in sports, not how they operate as an organisation .

...and Rugby was only 11th in last years funding.
Hard News2008-08-17 02:25:04

I would like to think Youth - Under 16's in any sport would be the only priority as they will be our champions of the future if given the tools and encouragement to go with their chosen sport.

Err . . . Rugby is not a priority funding for SPARC since it is a mainly self-funded sport by being fully professional sport at the elite level.

I didn't see why you would want to place all your eggs in the youth basket. The improvement must be for all level concern. Without the AWs and the OlyWs then the incentive to represent the country would be gone and the desire to excel will go. We need to perform and we can't expect to perform for the important WCQs without warm-up games and experience to playing together as a team. The structure is more or less there for us to take an advantage of but as to the opinions of how to structure this is divided by many in the sport.

Although it seems that you are suggest a return on investment on youth and junior football, but this is not where the real money is at. And without money there is no flexibility to expand the sport itself.

Sure the point that youth and junior football needs to start early in age to install skill factor in the our game is very important. And having the coaches are very important for this. Maybe creating a dutch system similar to the Australians are doing would be a start in the right direction to some formalised understanding and then adapt it to our style locally.

However I don't see that we are doing any service by focusing on just the youth and junior but rather a continuing the whole thing and improve little by little. I don't think that there should be a type of "Rebuilding Phase" in absolutes for our top teams. There is always rebuilding phases every year, it is a matter of the degree of the development in continous fashion.

Anyway, a think tank is not a bad idea, but i rather we adopt a successful system that another country has used effectively and then adapt to our player types and future player types. We do need a basic system that any NZ player understands at junior, youth and senior level and then adapt advance skill levels for the elite. I do however fancy the Dutch KNVB system as a more complete basic system that any player should easily pick no matter where they play before advancing further.

If we adopt the general KNVB system, I see us being very strong. Some of the junior polynesian players are rather creative and skillful abilities and generally we do have a reasonable height and physical strength that slightly better than the average dutch player.

We are lacking a general recognised system that all players should have some grounding in.

Whether we follow the Dutch, German, Brazil or French system of coaching and set of skills, a decision to adapt a system for New Zealanders should be sought after and then any advance stuff would include the best of the other systems. I know that Wynton Rufur tried the german system with the football kings in the first couple of system and it look good and Ken Dugdale tired the some of the 3-5-2 european system during the confederation cup with modest effort. But we lack a country system that we move in sync with. Some basics of the game are neglected everytime a new coach is introduced. We should install the basics as a good grounded habit that all New Zealand players have.

AllWhitebelievr, I'm not suggesting that we put all our eggs in one basket and completely abandon the All Whites or other national teams.  But I am saying that we need to prioritise, firstly, because we can't do everything with scarce resources and, secondly, there is a logical order of priority in the case of NZ football which requires us to develop the game by learning  to walk before we can run.  Until now, the priority of NZF has been on the All Whites playing more internationals, which has contributed to the sport nearly going bankrupt. 

Fair enough comments. However a lot has been developed over recent years with youth and junior football without a complete system to refer to.

But this is mainly because of our coaching system is incomplete allowing local coaches at grassroots (mainly parents) to make up their own ideas and philosophy about the game but never really given the basic system to work from. Hereby not giving the young players at the crucial time of their life valuable skills and game basics at eventually sets us up to fall at the higher levels.

Every weekend I see basic game structure of the individual player fail because the lack of game knowledge and this includes the NZFC level. It's not that they are not following the coaches instructions but rather they have bad habits entrenched and lack quick enough recognition of the game situation hereby slowing down the process and creating unnecessary difficulties than suitable game play. This of course slows the chance to express creativity and utilise individual skills being on the back foot rather than on the front foot so to speak.

The coaching aspect at the grassroots are crucial. Now I have seen the old system they use for the parents and frankly there is no real guidance but rather "it's up to you" system.

I know there is a change to the coaching certification system since the old english level 0 level 1 level 2 level 3 that I was under and I haven't seen what they do with the lower levels since I have been more involved with senior players. But I have seen some decent development with the youth players coming into the senior ranks however that really depends on the region that you are in. Some regions are better than others sadly and doesn't seem to transferable (then again many youths don't change regions that often).

I understand that there has been a fair amount of work been done over the last 5 years with the junior/youth football and really it's a matter of time to see them come through at the senior ranks.

My primary concern is the retention of youth players into the senior ranks, there plenty of very good youth players given up playing before getting to the senior ranks. There is little in the way of schools recommending football clubs to school leavers or having adequate connecting pathways for players from school to club. They just get lost. Football is not a priority in their lives. Hence reducing the overall depth and development of the game across all levels and losing quality in the long term.

Yes the NZF has prioritised the AWs internationals in 2005-2007 but also the age group participation at youth world cups. It wasn't just the AW's tours but the sudden cost associated with Australia leaving OFC to AFC and allowing many of our youth teams access to the world tournaments all at the same time that blew the budget out.

You will find that the AW's cost was actually normal and expected as we saved up during for a for a year not doing much internationals (2005) in order to plan for a rebuild in 2006-2007. It was only chile and europe tour and the south america tour the following year that there was planned expenses. Ultimately I understand the need for an end of season tour every year (an incentive and reward for elite players) and would welcome it if we have the money. But I think it was a fair comment not to take those friendlies because there is little gain in ranking points and developing players domestically is the greater need.

It was the Australians switching confeds that blew our estimations and now we have new problems to deal with for the last couple of years. So don't be too harsh on NZF because it was a time of transition that caught everyone out (i.e. you, me and everyone else) and not just NZF.

BTW it is hard not to ignore AWs need to play internationals to lift the rankings into the 70s in order to create work permits for the players in the UK. Although friendlies are not crucial enough for points, we need a steady turnover of games in the FIFA windows to get the team together every so often. We can budget games for those windows at least, I think. WCQ games and getting to the finals in South Africa is crucial to achieve for the future player pathway. USL/MLS is a poor sub for the EPL or even the Championship league that it below for the players. IMHO.

Our think-tank is basically our high performance manager John Herdman but as you know he has a double role as the football fern coach as well as the U20 football fern's coach previously. He is up to date with the latest training stuff (having deal with him previously myself) and no doubt that he is likely to be groomed as a future AW's coach (well he has my vote). The roles at NZF are doubled up because of cost and it's not likely to change in the immediate future. I have to say that John has done lots for the development and still has much to offer. He and Ricki are the most busiest of our coaches in the country, not to down anyone else but they are in the most influencing and crucial positions and are doing very well. So I take Ryan Nelson's comment as being an very unfair statement and almost personal because I understand some of the tough work that they have to do.

I really do advocate hiring high quality oversea coaches to revolutionising our coaching system. Japan and Australia have done it so we should save up and do the same.

Thanks for your points AllWhitebelievr.  You're obviously close to the action and can make some good observations from first-hand experience.  Let's hope that NZF and the new board are inclined to think carefully about how to develop the game to a new level over the next few years. 

Intereasting stuff and a good discussion.

As much as I love football I just think that we as a population are just too small to compete with other codes unless we associate ourselves with the likes of Australia, Pacific Islands or even South Africa. We have the talent here but I have to agree; when it comes to football the focus should be pushed onto other areas if we are going to produce those role models that are needed for future recruitment.

Good point Teza.  The universities, probably particularly Otago and Massey, could have a lot to offer.

Denmark is a little bit bigger than us (around 5.5 million), Croatia a little smaller (just over 4 million).

Can't comment on the Danish situation, but the Croatian one basically relies on clubs to find and nurture the talent. The problem these days is that HNL (Croatian Football League) is getting progressively weaker (because of the precise problems that NZ has - small population base, limited income from TV and attendances, etc), and it is quite conceivable that Croatian national team will go downhill over the next decade or so. This is a big topic of discussion among Croatian football stakeholders, and options on the table are enlarging the league to try to expose more players to the highest level of football at home (this is supposed to happen from next season, but I fear it will dilute the talent pool even more, at least in the short-term), perhaps setting up an international central European competition(with Austrians, Slovenians, Hungarians and Czechs) or a south-eastern one (possibly with Hungary, Slovenia, Bosnia and maybe Serbia, but there's a bit of bagagge there) to raise the standard of play. This is unlikely to work in a league system , but might work as a cup-competition in spring...but personally I can't see it happening. There's also clamouring for the HNS to et more involved by setting up academies, especially for 16-17 year olds which is seen as a crucial development stage.

Thanks for that information on Croatia el grapadura. It would be interesting to know the detail of how the Croatian football stakeholders do end up dealing with the problems.  It will be a huge issue given that it is the national sport.  Maybe NZ could learn something from the Croatian experience.