All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

Did the All Whites blow it against Paraguay?

34 replies · 1,591 views
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Did the All Whites blow it against Paraguay?

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I really don't mean to be negative but this is an honest question from me as a football n00b, and the same question has been asked by many people I talked to today about the game, also relative football n00bs (or self-professed "fans" that don't know sh*t).

Did we blow it last night? I disagree with some that we should have gone out "all guns blazing from the start" and were "too defensive" in the first half. I thought that holding them scoreless in the first half was kinda "half the job done".

But everyone including the team knew that they needed to score a goal to have any chance of staying in the tournament. Many I spoke to today (myself included) would have accepted a 2-0/3-0 loss in pursuit of victory.

Am I being unfair? Was the team as attacking as it could have been? And why leave another sub spare by the end of the game?

I really don't mean to be negative so if this post annoys you please move on to another of the many different threads here. I am gutted by how close we came to advancing out of the group, and feel that the feeling is justified by the players' reactions to the draw.

I know that once the disappointment has subsided that long-lasting pride will fill me but for now I just want to know if the gameplan in the last 20-30 minutes could have been better (for my own education and interest).

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
No.

Three for me, and two for them.

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I have to admit that it looked like they were playing for a draw until right at the last gasp. They must have known what was going on in the other game, surely?
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
NZ_Football twitter tweeted up when Slovakia scored and knew "the score".

This tells me they MUST have known the score, at the very least by halftime.

Buffon II - I respect your opinion but could you please elaborate? I'm not pointing the finger here. I am keen to hear some balanced reasoned discussion.

Do you think that the whole "we got through unbeaten" was almost a semi-prepared speech that was saved up for the situation in which we achieved the second best goal of drawing the game? Perhaps they were fixated on the fact that a draw MAY be enough so don't blow it by losing??

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
We had to keep it tight until at least the 60th minute because 1 goal from Paraguay and we were gone. We tried to throw men forward in the 2nd half but it just resulted in more Paraguay chances.
 
People don't seem to realise that Paraguay are a very good defensive team as well - probably the best in South America in that regard - and have kept out Brazil and Argentina. We simply don't have the attacking players to get through that kind of defence. To say that we didn't try and win is stupid.

a.haak

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Sorry valeo, we weren't suggesting that they didn't want to win. I saw 0-0 at the 60th minute as a victory. That was when I thought we would start to chance our arm - in rugby I would expect a team to "throw it around".

But as football n00bs, I can't really be sure how much MORE we MAY have been able to do. Those around me don't know sh*t but seem to think they know it all and wanted 10 men (maybe even 11) forward.

I know there are limitations but with my untrained eye, it still seemed we had some reserve in terms of pushing forward?ahmad2010-06-25 19:38:43

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Fixated on the draw? Really? Is that why Nelsen came out all apologetic for not getting the win to put us through to the last 16?

Seriously, you can't just throw 10 men forward and expect the chances to start flooding in. They had far more possession than us for starters, to attack you need possession. Anyway i thought we were more adventurous in the second half, perhaps we could of put an extra attacking player on but really i have no complaints with the way we approached the game.

Three for me, and two for them.

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I really don't watch a lot of football. I never watched a Phoenix game (in whole) until after I got the Fever in the build-up to Bahrain at Mananananama.

Those around me seem to think they know but I think they know even less than me. But I realise how little I know and I am simply posing the question. To the untrained it *seemed* as if we could have done more. If that's not the case then it's good to know.

We still seem to lack speed/penetration but I realise we aren't a top 10 footballing nation. I'm so proud of the way the guys have played despite our obvious deficiencies.

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
Fixated on the draw? Really? Is that why Nelsen came out all apologetic for not getting the win to put us through to the last 16?
Yeah, maybe it is.
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
NZ currently is a team that's stength is in defence rather than attack.

When Hibs, went up, to win the Scottish Cup - I wisnae there - furfuxake!

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
To say that we were fixated on the draw is a bit naiive. the first half was about not conceding and seeing what the other game had to offer. Once there was a goal in that game, we knew we had to score, but simply didnt have the possession or composure on the ball to launch attacks. I don't think Ricki did much wrong tactically (possibly should've brought on wee mac for vicelich for the last 15-20). But we just didn't see enough of the ball to threaten.

Once Paraguay were aware Slovakia were 1-0 up against the divers, they just shut up shop at the back, knowing a draw would keep them at the top of the table. Wasn't a hell of a lot we could do.
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Also i have to take exception to the term "blow it" in this context, given that heading into this match we were still rank outsiders to qualify for the last 16. Perhaps we could of pushed on a little more or put an extra attacking player on but i find it hard to see what we blew exactly.

Three for me, and two for them.

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
^Agree
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
We are only one or two world class attacking midfielders away of having a decent crack to get through and make some waves.

But yeah, I agree with buffon about the need of possession and then throwing an extra attacking player. Subbing off existing attacking players with attacking players off the bench is only a change of personal attacking options and not necessary increasing attacking options. It would have been to change strategy but there is only so much time to implement such a strategy.

I thought that changing a defensive midfielder for a forward or attacking midfielder would having been a likely option. I would have personally change Vicelich for Brown (Vicelich was fading a bit and Brown has fresh legs and can naturally counterattack on the break quicker) and Fallon for Wood (Fallon was getting ineffective in play) and then Brockie for Lochhead (there was less attack on the left side in the second half and we need extra man to push up and can finish, it may mean that Smeltz to drop more to the left and push Brockie forward to compensate). However that is how adventurous I would go to get the most out of the last 35 minutes.
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Btw. I agree that the term "Blew it" is a heavy one to swing around this team. We were not the favourites to win this game.
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Not sure of the exact stats, but I think Paraguay were very smart in not giving away too many free kicks in midfield in the second half. Those are the times we can get a lot of players forward, hoping for a goal. It's a lot more difficult and riskier to get numbers up there in open play, especially with how effectively Paraguay pressed us when we had possession. 
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
We are only one or two world class attacking midfielders away of having a decent crack to get through and make some waves.

 
This.
 
I felt we looked to try create chances, but the penetration and execution through midfield was lacking. I'm not saying anyone was poor, but there was a lack of the necessary 'spark/creativity' needed to make genuine opportunities in sufficient numbers for us to realistically hope for goals.
 
This could be applied to all three matches, and to the buildup as well. Not a criticism, but something to consider for future development in New Zealand Football. 
 
This was a limited side that was well aware of their limitations, and played to its strengths, achieving some very good results.


Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think with ten to go we should have hooked Vicelich and Elloit and chucked on Brown and either Mac or AC.
 
No guts, no glory.
 
Note- I am exceedingly proud of what we did. Just a bit perplexed as to why we wouldn't go for it when a second round spot was there for the taking. 
 
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I didn't mean to be over critical by using the term "blew it" - it was simply to spark debate.

I used the term simply because the Round of 16 was so tantilisingly close that we could taste it (and so could Ryan). His immediate post-match comments made me feel as if he thought they had "blown" their chance to make it too.

That's not to say that they should have won!!! I agree we were total outsiders and I was picking a 0-2 loss and at the end of the day will be very pleased with their results.

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The fact that some people think the All Whites may have "Blew it" by holding Group winners Paraguay to 0-0 the world cup is testiment to what this team has achieved.
 
I can understand we're your coming from but honestly we didn't blow it, the game was never ours to blow. Paraguay needed a clean sheet to win the group and they hardly gave us a chance.
 
Given Paraguay are technically superior (no shame in that ) our best chance of winning was 1-0, the 0 being crucial. Paraguay have only conceded 1 goal so far and to score twice against a side who is dominating possesion and don't need to push numbers forward is virtually impossible at this level. As mentioned in earlier posts if we conceded it was all over, at 0-0 there was always hope.
 
What we needed to happen was Paraguay to sit back and defend in the last 30 minutes and give us oppurtunities to build some pressure. This is what happended in the Slovakia but Paraguay are a better side. I'm sure the team would have loved to have 'gone all guns blazing' but we rarely got the chance and when we did we threw numbers forward we never got that bit of luck/quality moment that is needed to unlock a world class defence

Achieve by Unity

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
People are saying that we should have brought on McGlinchey as an attacking option, but my view on that is that we were already living on so little ball that taking off a ball winner in Vicelich for a playmaker in McGlinchey probably would have seen us see even less of the ball.

Its not always so simple as bringing on a playmaker makes you more likely to score a goal. Otherwise you would just throw 10 forwards on.
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
aitkenmike wrote:
People are saying that we should have brought on McGlinchey as an attacking option, but my view on that is that we were already living on so little ball that taking off a ball winner in Vicelich for a playmaker in McGlinchey probably would have seen us see even less of the ball.

Its not always so simple as bringing on a playmaker makes you more likely to score a goal. Otherwise you would just throw 10 forwards on.


I doubt it would have made any impact. Both teams were below par today, in fact the first was boring.
I can find nothing unkind to say about this AW side. I know we are way behind technically but we have played to our strenghts and the fact that they did not lose any games was just fantastic.
On a thread some months ago the question was asked 'how many points will we end up with' There were a few who put 1 or 2, but most said 0. One guy said 3, and I thought 'in your dreams' I bet I was not alone, but I have to say that for me this has been one of the proudest weeks of my life

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Personally, I hope the players do think they blew it. I hope it burns in their guts. I hope they can't wait to get another crack.
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
kiwi pie wrote:
Personally, I hope the players do think they blew it. I hope it burns in their guts. I hope they can't wait to get another crack.


Nah... every time I've seen an interview with Nelsen today I've felt like giving him a big hug - he's taking it real personally as if he himself let the entire country down & you've just got to feel bad for such a good man who obviously put his heart and soul into it yet doesn't realise we love him for what he achieved
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
we played well above expectations and earned alot of respect. certainly did better than most of us hoped or dreamed. I was gutted we couldnt get the win last night and make the second round but in reflection i guess it was a fair result. we have a great defense but our attack is 1-2 players short of world class. im not convinced playing 3 up front is the answer, fallon and killen offered very little last night.

rojas, so special

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
We are only one or two world class attacking midfielders away of having a decent crack to get through and make some waves.

But yeah, I agree with buffon about the need of possession and then throwing an extra attacking player. Subbing off existing attacking players with attacking players off the bench is only a change of personal attacking options and not necessary increasing attacking options. It would have been to change strategy but there is only so much time to implement such a strategy.

I thought that changing a defensive midfielder for a forward or attacking midfielder would having been a likely option. I would have personally change Vicelich for Brown (Vicelich was fading a bit and Brown has fresh legs and can naturally counterattack on the break quicker) and Fallon for Wood (Fallon was getting ineffective in play) and then Brockie for Lochhead (there was less attack on the left side in the second half and we need extra man to push up and can finish, it may mean that Smeltz to drop more to the left and push Brockie forward to compensate). However that is how adventurous I would go to get the most out of the last 35 minutes.
Completely agree , although not sure whether it should have been Brown or WeeMac on for Ivan.

When Brockie was warming up I was sure it would be for Lochhead, and was then sure that WeeMac would come on like he did in the away leg against Bahrain.
Those two factors were what really hurt me after the game, just that feeling that we could have done a tiny bit more. Like Nelsen said (a lot) when he was in NZ launching his book, you don't want to leave the field with regrets.
You know we belong together...

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
aitkenmike wrote:
People are saying that we should have brought on McGlinchey as an attacking option, but my view on that is that we were already living on so little ball that taking off a ball winner in Vicelich for a playmaker in McGlinchey probably would have seen us see even less of the ball.

Its not always so simple as bringing on a playmaker makes you more likely to score a goal. Otherwise you would just throw 10 forwards on.
Disagree sorry, we played with 3 defensive players in midfield all game, we had to throw more caution into the wind, and make sure that any scrap of possesion we won in the last 10-20 minutes of the game was as likely as possible to lead to some sort of chance.
You know we belong together...

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hello everyone. I posted on your site before but admit I am more of a lurker then active participant.
Born in Holland, live here now for 22 years. Soccer in the blood and The All Whites have taken hold of the mainly Dutch inherited part of it. Regarding the match against Paraguay (and the 2 other matches) it is more a question of COULD not would. This team has its strength in the back 3 and remarkably they managed with tight organisation , heart and soul and the help of one world class player, Nelsen, three draws against opposition I thought were leagues above them. Despite some here saying that we do have a good attacking front 3, we don't. They are journey men who do well against lesser opposition and/or with regular feeding from middle or flanks. When you are under constant pressure your chances left to make something out of nothing is to have players that are technically capable of individual brilliance to create space. In the first game we managed to get a draw because the defence held it to a 1-0 deficit untill the end and, against a team with less capable defensive abilities (Reid and Fallon free at the far post) managed a fighting, amazing, draw. Against the Italians we were lucky to score early and here is where our defence truly shone brightly. They gave everything they had and that, I think, is truly the reason we could not do much more then we did against Paraguay: we were spend and did not have the legs to try more. That is how it felt to me when I saw the match unfold. Just not enough energy to take that little step up to run an extra step in midfield to get that scramble to create a half chance.
This feeling of pride for my adopted country though is unmeasurable. Even my friends and family over there draped the new Zealand flag over walls and cafe tables and could not believe what we were achieving and have achieved. Don't ever take away that achievement.
All we need is a midfielder with the skills and nouse to bring us next time around in the next round.
Peace
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
buddha wrote:
Hello everyone. I posted on your site before but admit I am more of a lurker then active participant.
Born in Holland, live here now for 22 years. Soccer in the blood and The All Whites have taken hold of the mainly Dutch inherited part of it. Regarding the match against Paraguay (and the 2 other matches) it is more a question of COULD not would. This team has its strength in the back 3 and remarkably they managed with tight organisation , heart and soul and the help of one world class player, Nelsen, three draws against opposition I thought were leagues above them. Despite some here saying that we do have a good attacking front 3, we don't. They are journey men who do well against lesser opposition and/or with regular feeding from middle or flanks. When you are under constant pressure your chances left to make something out of nothing is to have players that are technically capable of individual brilliance to create space. In the first game we managed to get a draw because the defence held it to a 1-0 deficit untill the end and, against a team with less capable defensive abilities (Reid and Fallon free at the far post) managed a fighting, amazing, draw. Against the Italians we were lucky to score early and here is where our defence truly shone brightly. They gave everything they had and that, I think, is truly the reason we could not do much more then we did against Paraguay: we were spend and did not have the legs to try more. That is how it felt to me when I saw the match unfold. Just not enough energy to take that little step up to run an extra step in midfield to get that scramble to create a half chance.
This feeling of pride for my adopted country though is unmeasurable. Even my friends and family over there draped the new Zealand flag over walls and cafe tables and could not believe what we were achieving and have achieved. Don't ever take away that achievement.
All we need is a midfielder with the skills and nouse to bring us next time around in the next round.
Peace
 
Well said
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

The game itself was disappointing result,  but in saying that, overall i'm happy and proud,  Who would of thought we would be unbeaten in the group stage befote the WC began. NO ONE. Its only our 2nd appearance at a World Cup, 28yrs since the first. Mighty effort All Whites. Everyone is proud of you's, yes even Steve Tew, Michael Jones etc... 

Its now up to new zealand football, do they keep Ricky? where do we go from here?darkhorse2010-06-26 09:48:16
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Bit surprised at some of the opinions here. The reality is that we played a game that gave us the best chance to win. We kept things as tight as possible at the back, and tried to provide enough numbers on attack to sneak a goal, but in the end Paraguay was mainly concerned with keeping us out first and foremost (once they knew the scoreline in the other game) and was just too good defensively to allow us a sniff. Even the scraps we did get (notably Elliott's shot from the top of the box early in the second half, and Smeltzy's header late in the game) we didn't have enough quality to take advantage of.

Bringing on Wee Mac or Brown wouldn't have helped one bit - neither really has the quality to provide the creative threat we were lacking, and even if they did, they wouldn't have had enough ball to do it with anyway. We were struggling to win and retain enough possession with the holding players we had on anyway, would have got even less with Wee Mac on the field for example. All his introduction would have meant is more space behind our midfield, which was always going to favour Paraguay more than us. Like I said, we played the game that gave us the best chance to win. In the end, we weren't good enough to unlock a top defence, and this really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone as we ain't exactly a free scoring side at the best of times. Paraguay knew where our strengths are, and did a very good job at negating them. In fact, this is one (of many) challenges the All Whites will face from this point on - teams know what to expect from us now, and will be ready for it. We now also have to find ways to counter that.
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
think we played a great game. Best out of the 3. It sucks that there were so many penalties in the final 5 minutes cos thats when we were starting to look dangerous. Only thing that would have been better is if Paston got right forward in the final minute and pulled a Jimmy Glass (although that would only really work in a corner situation. Great effort. 2014 and Reid, Smith, MacGlinchy and Wood will be even better. NZ FTW
Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Bringing on Wee Mac or Brown wouldn't have helped one bit.
 
I don't think he would have turned the game, just helped keep the  ball better and possibly given our front three better ball, and was a better option than Brockie (not the Brockie was bad option).
 
This is just my opinion and not a critisicm of Ricki who think did an amazing job and can take a large amount of credit for some of the greatest/proudest/happiest moments in my life.

Achieve by Unity

Permalink Permalink
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
After having time to 'digest' this result, you simply cannot come to the conclusion that we did (blow it).

Let's not forget that a goal probably would have killed us off, and so we were desperate to not concede.

Let's also not forget Paraguay are defensively very sound and could even have topped the COMNEBOL qualifying round - no mean feat.

It was a to-and-fro game and Paraguay had a lot more chances. We didn't get a shot on target all game and seldom looked likely. That doesn't mean we blew it.
Permalink Permalink