rolodex use is in overdrive
Football Ferns
No offence, but RH is not one who should be jumping in on someone for negative, take-no-chances coaching
wgot the Phoenix to the finals a couple of times
Three times :-)
Within a hand ball goal of the final
I am absolutely asking Kevin and Zoro about this after the game on Saturday.
Tell me about it then?
Motivated young players are interested in gaining a professional career, not playing in the world cups. Some think that going to a world cup may aid this, other see the NZ age grade/full team as being an impediment to a successful career [boyd]. Any players who has a peak aspiration to play in an age grade team has some issues to resolve.
the kids and to an extent, parents, buy into the Philisophy of ole, or they wouldn't be there. Yes, most won't make it as a pro, but they buy into building leaders, and people with a work ethic, that they can translate into other professions. a 4 week jaunt in [foreign land] doesn't contribute to that mindset.
By example - there's a bit of an in joke for some of the Ole kids- they do want to play for the Nix - when they are 34 and in the last 1-2 years of their career as a marquee - but not before. Goals, innit.
Holy crap, how did I end up in an alternative universe where people remember RH as a "pragmatic" coach rather than "the loser who parked the bus against Paraguay in 2010 instead of going for the win and did the same against Mexico 2014"? The historical revisionism is amazing.
Still prefer him to Heraf tho
Holy crap, how did I end up in an alternative universe where people remember RH as a "pragmatic" coach rather than "the loser who parked the bus against Paraguay in 2010 instead of going for the win and did the same against Mexico 2014"? The historical revisionism is amazing.
Still prefer him to Heraf tho
Yeah, that was terrible wasn't it. Getting us from absolutely nowhere to there and getting it slightly wrong
Wow, that's a really good listen
Tell me about it then?
It's a pretty all-in or all-out kind of place. Declan has a playing and player development philosophy and if the players are going to do anything outside of Ole then it has to at least somewhat square with that. The kids and parents there are pretty devoted and put a lot of faith in him (I think for good reason).
And yet there were 12 or 13 Ole players at the recent U17 and U20 camps. Hardly all-in or all-out.
No offence, but RH is not one who should be jumping in on someone for negative, take-no-chances coaching
why not?, yes he was a defensive coach, but got NZ to the World Cup and survived unbeaten, got the Phoenix to the finals a couple of times - shows you can go out with a defensive mind set and still achieve results - Heraf could learn something from him.
Yes agree, Herbert achieved some remarkable results from limited teams.
But RH needs reminding when trumpeting his CV, that he only had to beat Bahrain over 2 legs to make that $20M or whatever for NZ Football.
The easiest World Cup qualifying path for any AWs coach (foreign or NZ bred) has had since............................ever.
The Hudson coached full strength AWs from last year, would have beaten the Bahrainis also. The Socceroos who finished 5th in Asia, probably not.
In fact don't see great difference between how either coach set up the AWs for their various WC playoffs (2009 vs 2017). Herbert just had a far far easier opponent, but maybe a slightly less talented side (debatable).
There's no doubt that Herbert had a less talented side in 2009 (Reid and Smith didn't come into the fold until after the play-off). He did have a more cohesive unit, with a number of players from the squad and in the playing XI being under Herbert at the Phoenix too, and a great leader in Nelsen. But there is also absolutely no guarantee that a Hudson side would have got past Bahrain. We tend to forget just how touch and go that tie really was - we very extremely lucky to come back with a 0-0 from the first leg, and then there was also the missed/saved penalty in Wellington. There's absolutely no guarantee that a Hudson-coached team would have got past a Bahrain-type side, firstly because it was by no means an easy task at the time, and secondly because at no point in Hudson's tenure did the performances indicate that getting past that level of opposition would be a given.
Holy crap, how did I end up in an alternative universe where people remember RH as a "pragmatic" coach rather than "the loser who parked the bus against Paraguay in 2010 instead of going for the win and did the same against Mexico 2014"? The historical revisionism is amazing.
Still prefer him to Heraf tho
On the other side, there were those of us who were saying, don't knock Ricki and what his All White (and Phoenix) teams have been able to achieve, things could be a lot, lot worse.
Yes, some of us are true visionaries.
how the hell did we ever get in this state?
Turns out he’s a liar too
By example - there's a bit of an in joke for some of the Ole kids- they do want to play for the Nix - when they are 34 and in the last 1-2 years of their career as a marquee - but not before. Goals, innit.
That is sad, very sad
Tell me about it then?
Motivated young players are interested in gaining a professional career, not playing in the world cups. Some think that going to a world cup may aid this, other see the NZ age grade/full team as being an impediment to a successful career [boyd]. Any players who has a peak aspiration to play in an age grade team has some issues to resolve.
the kids and to an extent, parents, buy into the Philisophy of ole, or they wouldn't be there. Yes, most won't make it as a pro, but they buy into building leaders, and people with a work ethic, that they can translate into other professions. a 4 week jaunt in [foreign land] doesn't contribute to that mindset.
If young players decide not to play for NZ that is fine. However, if they are forced not to accept selection then that is cruel.
'Everybody likes me, honest'
And what a patronizing Twit, "I don't like the word negative to be honest, in relation to football. You mean defending,"
Tell me about it then?
Motivated young players are interested in gaining a professional career, not playing in the world cups. Some think that going to a world cup may aid this, other see the NZ age grade/full team as being an impediment to a successful career [boyd]. Any players who has a peak aspiration to play in an age grade team has some issues to resolve.
the kids and to an extent, parents, buy into the Philisophy of ole, or they wouldn't be there. Yes, most won't make it as a pro, but they buy into building leaders, and people with a work ethic, that they can translate into other professions. a 4 week jaunt in [foreign land] doesn't contribute to that mindset.
If young players decide not to play for NZ that is fine. However, if they are forced not to accept selection then that is cruel.
Don't worry, it's not the case
His comments I just saw on the news are exactly one of our main problems historically and also trying to go forawrd.
We keep getting coaches who tell us that we arent capable of producing players technically capable of being of the quality of Japan or Brazil etc.
I think thats bollocks, we are capable of that, our overall technical capability has been improving over the last decade or more, seen by a small handfull of players playing around the world who are of an ability level that we only saw in the occasional individual.
He thinks we need to concentrate on being the fittest team, have the best tactics and having a strong culture.
Tactics can only be successful if players have the technical ability to implement a tactical approach and fitness is something that all teams have high levels of.
I am so sick of hearing coaches push these ideas, the one and only way we will improve is by improving our technical abilities which is what was one of the WoF plans main targets. Its the main thing that junior and youth coaches are asked to concentrate on by NZF on NZF courses at Federation training sessions and among the majority of our junior and youth coaches. There has been improvement, its slow but we are producing more players of a certain level than we have before. It still needs to be better but when the national team coach and DoF is pushing the fitness/tactics/culture agenda thats no different to the last 30 years and the only thing FIFA has ever said about us in technical reports.
I pray for the day I hear our National coaches or our DoF make technical ability the single most important goal and lead the countries coaches in players in that direction.
His comments simply are a continuation of ideas and an approach that hasnt worked.
With respect to technical ability Annalie Longo for example is one player who has the ability to compete with a Japanese player on a technical level. if we can produce her we can produce more. Its a mindset that has to be driven from the top and what we have at the top is a fudgeing dinosaur.
His comments I just saw on the news are exactly one of our main problems historically and also trying to go forawrd.
We keep getting coaches who tell us that we arent capable of producing players technically capable of being of the quality of Japan or Brazil etc.
I think thats bollocks, we are capable of that, our overall technical capability has been improving over the last decade or more, seen by a small handfull of players playing around the world who are of an ability level that we only saw in the occasional individual.
He thinks we need to concentrate on being the fittest team, have the best tactics and having a strong culture.
Tactics can only be successful if players have the technical ability to implement a tactical approach and fitness is something that all teams have high levels of.
I am so sick of hearing coaches push these ideas, the one and only way we will improve is by improving our technical abilities which is what was one of the WoF plans main targets. Its the main thing that junior and youth coaches are asked to concentrate on by NZF on NZF courses at Federation training sessions and among the majority of our junior and youth coaches. There has been improvement, its slow but we are producing more players of a certain level than we have before. It still needs to be better but when the national team coach and DoF is pushing the fitness/tactics/culture agenda thats no different to the last 30 years and the only thing FIFA has ever said about us in technical reports.
I pray for the day I hear our National coaches or our DoF make technical ability the single most important goal and lead the countries coaches in players in that direction.
His comments simply are a continuation of ideas and an approach that hasnt worked.
With respect to technical ability Annalie Longo for example is one player who has the ability to compete with a Japanese player on a technical level. if we can produce her we can produce more. Its a mindset that has to be driven from the top and what we have at the top is a fudgeing dinosaur.
Agree, but SURELY the continued implementation of WOF (just 7 years in, starting from juniors and working up) is the single most important KPI for the NZF Technical Director.
When I hear stories of Heraf demanding defenders not to pass to their midfielders in their own half, I have to ask 2 questions: 1) Why haven't the Federations coaches collectively spat the dummy; are they seriously that fearful, rather than standing up for what is right; 2) why isn't the Board demanding answers from the people who hired this football dictator?
First time I have seen him talking live today on the news and first impressions is "arrogance"
Nothing wrong with a touch of arrogance in sport. Unkess of course you are saying we are trying not to lose by 8
Then it's really really bad
Haven't been following this as much as others to be fair, but what separates Heraf from Hudson's dire tactics, especially when Huddo was playing far worse sides? Why did Hudson get nowhere near the uproar over four years that Heraf is getting after one game?
Of course Heraf did come out and say that we don't have the same quality that Japan has but to be honest I don't have much of a problem with that because it's true. I have a problem with playing horrible negative football, but we can't forget that's something we endured for four years and not a single person in the media spoke up about it.
Also the 8-0 comments are pretty offensive but I'm willing to take the benefit of the doubt and assume he got lost in translation/didn't mean to be so harsh/used a more European approach that we're not used to in NZ as someone in another thread mentioned. Can't help but feel this is a big overreaction. Not to mention having players literally retire because they don't like tactics. Where's the pride? If he's really not willing to change his mindset and shark tactics just sack him and move on
Haven't been following this as much as others to be fair, but what separates Heraf from Hudson's dire tactics, especially when Huddo was playing far worse sides? Why did Hudson get nowhere near the uproar over four years that Heraf is getting after one game?
Of course Heraf did come out and say that we don't have the same quality that Japan has but to be honest I don't have much of a problem with that because it's true. I have a problem with playing horrible negative football, but we can't forget that's something we endured for four years and not a single person in the media spoke up about it.
Also the 8-0 comments are pretty offensive but I'm willing to take the benefit of the doubt and assume he got lost in translation/didn't mean to be so harsh. Can't help but feel this is a big overreaction. Not to mention having players literally retire because they don't like tactics. Where's the pride? If he's really not willing to change his mindset and shark tactics just sack him and move on
Well its the context of everything.
Firstly he is the NZF Technical Director. NZF 7 or 8 years ago put in place the WoF plan which was designed to improve the quality of players and football. I remember speaking to Rob Sherman and others on a coaching course about the WoF and its ideas. Ive mentioned this before but one of the big driving factors was that FIFA had never once in any of its technical reports after tournaments spoke of NZ teams or players other than in terms of being fit and organised. After every FIFA tournament there is a technical report done on all teams who took part. Never once has a single player ever been mentioned as having been technically gifted etc. John Herdmans assistant at the time told me that it was a major ambition of the WoF to change that.
The FF arent at the same level as Japan, no problem with that but in recent years we have got credible results without playing such negative football. The FF have stalled in the last 3 or 4 years and maybe thats because we reached a ceiling with respect to the ability of the players involved.
However the Technical Director approached a game with a tactic, mindset and intent that is the absolute opposite of what all NZF coaching courses are asking coaches of juniors, youth, school, club, federation and academy to try and do.
There is no over reaction here, its a direct opposition to an approach taken by the very person who is supposed to lead our football direction which is heading in the opposite direction of NZF's intended desires.
Players retiring because of this shows a huge amount of pride as far as Im concerned, its a protest at the lack of understanding of our desires and mindset as a sports nation by our very own Technical Director.
I hated Hudson but his approach was never this awful so maybe thats why there wasnt as strong a reaction from the media. Also the FF have over the last decade or more made huge steps forward and this is frankly a huge step backwards. Also Hudson wasnt our Technical Director, his job wasnt to guide the development of all footballers in NZ.
The rumblings around the FF over the last couple of months was an indication of what we might see and for me its worse than I expected. My faith because of this is in the players, they did warn us.
Hudson never had this reaction in part because his biggest skill as a coach is PR. He always said the right things, even if what he went and did was always a bald contradiction to his words. He also managed to meet expectations in terms of results, if we had lost that penalty shoot-out to PNG then I think we would have seen a pretty similar reaction.
Haven't been following this as much as others to be fair, but what separates Heraf from Hudson's dire tactics, especially when Huddo was playing far worse sides? Why did Hudson get nowhere near the uproar over four years that Heraf is getting after one game?
Of course Heraf did come out and say that we don't have the same quality that Japan has but to be honest I don't have much of a problem with that because it's true. I have a problem with playing horrible negative football, but we can't forget that's something we endured for four years and not a single person in the media spoke up about it.
Also the 8-0 comments are pretty offensive but I'm willing to take the benefit of the doubt and assume he got lost in translation/didn't mean to be so harsh. Can't help but feel this is a big overreaction. Not to mention having players literally retire because they don't like tactics. Where's the pride? If he's really not willing to change his mindset and shark tactics just sack him and move on
Well its the context of everything.
Firstly he is the NZF Technical Director. NZF 7 or 8 years ago put in place the WoF plan which was designed to improve the quality of players and football. I remember speaking to Rob Sherman and others on a coaching course about the WoF and its ideas. Ive mentioned this before but one of the big driving factors was that FIFA had never once in any of its technical reports after tournaments spoke of NZ teams or players other than in terms of being fit and organised. After every FIFA tournament there is a technical report done on all teams who took part. Never once has a single player ever been mentioned as having been technically gifted etc. John Herdmans assistant at the time told me that it was a major ambition of the WoF to change that.
The FF arent at the same level as Japan, no problem with that but in recent years we have got credible results without playing such negative football. The FF have stalled in the last 3 or 4 years and maybe thats because we reached a ceiling with respect to the ability of the players involved.
However the Technical Director approached a game with a tactic, mindset and intent that is the absolute opposite of what all NZF coaching courses are asking coaches of juniors, youth, school, club, federation and academy to try and do.
There is no over reaction here, its a direct opposition to an approach taken by the very person who is supposed to lead our football direction which is heading in the opposite direction of NZF's intended desires.
Players retiring because of this shows a huge amount of pride as far as Im concerned, its a protest at the lack of understanding of our desires and mindset as a sports nation by our very own Technical Director.
I hated Hudson but his approach was never this awful so maybe thats why there wasnt as strong a reaction from the media. Also the FF have over the last decade or more made huge steps forward and this is frankly a huge step backwards. Also Hudson wasnt our Technical Director, his job wasnt to guide the development of all footballers in NZ.
The rumblings around the FF over the last couple of months was an indication of what we might see and for me its worse than I expected. My faith because of this is in the players, they did warn us.
Great points there, makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks! I tend to disagree with Erceg's retirement though, to me it screams entitlement and a "I'll get what I want" attitude which is very rare in NZ sports. Nobody retired from the NZ league team when David Kidwell fudgeed everything up
Why is NZF organising a friendly against Japan in June in Wellington when our next important games are the World Cup qualifying games are in New Caledonia in November against Tonga, Cook Island, TBD, how did that help prepare?
Why are we complaining about the negative play of the coach who two years was the coach in the 0-0 park the bus bore draw between Austria U-20 and Argentina U-20 at the Cake Tin that proceeded the NZ U-20 - Myanmar U-20 5-1 thriller, that led to Austria making the round of 16 and sending Argentina home. Austria then going on to lose 2-0 Uzbekistan of all teams in the round of 16. This isn't new, this was there for all to see two years ago.
If we want to proceed deep into a tournament then there are going to be times we have to defend a lead or defend a point and what Sunday showed is we aren't capable. We had three central defenders that could not keep track of one mobile striker, two fullbacks that did not have the fitness to tear up and down the sidelines all day, an ageing immobile striker that was not able to get on the end of long balls and hold the ball up, and a midfield that was not able to break up play and transition from defence to attack.
We're reach the point of the new cycle where we ask someone from 1982.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/football/aus...
We're reach the point of the new cycle where we ask someone from 1982.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/football/aus...
Why's that bad?
Haven't been following this as much as others to be fair, but what separates Heraf from Hudson's dire tactics, especially when Huddo was playing far worse sides? Why did Hudson get nowhere near the uproar over four years that Heraf is getting after one game?
Of course Heraf did come out and say that we don't have the same quality that Japan has but to be honest I don't have much of a problem with that because it's true. I have a problem with playing horrible negative football, but we can't forget that's something we endured for four years and not a single person in the media spoke up about it.
Also the 8-0 comments are pretty offensive but I'm willing to take the benefit of the doubt and assume he got lost in translation/didn't mean to be so harsh/used a more European approach that we're not used to in NZ as someone in another thread mentioned. Can't help but feel this is a big overreaction. Not to mention having players literally retire because they don't like tactics. Where's the pride? If he's really not willing to change his mindset and shark tactics just sack him and move on
Heraf has forced players to retire, with Hudson players came out of retirement to play for him.
Once Hudson left he was universally praised by the playing group.
Can say what you like about Hudson, but his AWs players were behind his tactics - and he was not as negative as Heraf.
Haven't been following this as much as others to be fair, but what separates Heraf from Hudson's dire tactics, especially when Huddo was playing far worse sides? Why did Hudson get nowhere near the uproar over four years that Heraf is getting after one game?
Of course Heraf did come out and say that we don't have the same quality that Japan has but to be honest I don't have much of a problem with that because it's true. I have a problem with playing horrible negative football, but we can't forget that's something we endured for four years and not a single person in the media spoke up about it.
Also the 8-0 comments are pretty offensive but I'm willing to take the benefit of the doubt and assume he got lost in translation/didn't mean to be so harsh. Can't help but feel this is a big overreaction. Not to mention having players literally retire because they don't like tactics. Where's the pride? If he's really not willing to change his mindset and shark tactics just sack him and move on
Well its the context of everything.
Firstly he is the NZF Technical Director. NZF 7 or 8 years ago put in place the WoF plan which was designed to improve the quality of players and football. I remember speaking to Rob Sherman and others on a coaching course about the WoF and its ideas. Ive mentioned this before but one of the big driving factors was that FIFA had never once in any of its technical reports after tournaments spoke of NZ teams or players other than in terms of being fit and organised. After every FIFA tournament there is a technical report done on all teams who took part. Never once has a single player ever been mentioned as having been technically gifted etc. John Herdmans assistant at the time told me that it was a major ambition of the WoF to change that.
The FF arent at the same level as Japan, no problem with that but in recent years we have got credible results without playing such negative football. The FF have stalled in the last 3 or 4 years and maybe thats because we reached a ceiling with respect to the ability of the players involved.
However the Technical Director approached a game with a tactic, mindset and intent that is the absolute opposite of what all NZF coaching courses are asking coaches of juniors, youth, school, club, federation and academy to try and do.
There is no over reaction here, its a direct opposition to an approach taken by the very person who is supposed to lead our football direction which is heading in the opposite direction of NZF's intended desires.
Players retiring because of this shows a huge amount of pride as far as Im concerned, its a protest at the lack of understanding of our desires and mindset as a sports nation by our very own Technical Director.
I hated Hudson but his approach was never this awful so maybe thats why there wasnt as strong a reaction from the media. Also the FF have over the last decade or more made huge steps forward and this is frankly a huge step backwards. Also Hudson wasnt our Technical Director, his job wasnt to guide the development of all footballers in NZ.
The rumblings around the FF over the last couple of months was an indication of what we might see and for me its worse than I expected. My faith because of this is in the players, they did warn us.
Great points there, makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks! I tend to disagree with Erceg's retirement though, to me it screams entitlement and a "I'll get what I want" attitude which is very rare in NZ sports. Nobody retired from the NZ league team when David Kidwell fudgeed everything up
Yeah but a bunch went and played for Tonga!
Why is NZF organising a friendly against Japan in June in Wellington when our next important games are the World Cup qualifying games are in New Caledonia in November against Tonga, Cook Island, TBD, how did that help prepare?
Why are we complaining about the negative play of the coach who two years was the coach in the 0-0 park the bus bore draw between Austria U-20 and Argentina U-20 at the Cake Tin that proceeded the NZ U-20 - Myanmar U-20 5-1 thriller, that led to Austria making the round of 16 and sending Argentina home. Austria then going on to lose 2-0 Uzbekistan of all teams in the round of 16. This isn't new, this was there for all to see two years ago.
If we want to proceed deep into a tournament then there are going to be times we have to defend a lead or defend a point and what Sunday showed is we aren't capable. We had three central defenders that could not keep track of one mobile striker, two fullbacks that did not have the fitness to tear up and down the sidelines all day, an ageing immobile striker that was not able to get on the end of long balls and hold the ball up, and a midfield that was not able to break up play and transition from defence to attack.
His comments I just saw on the news are exactly one of our main problems historically and also trying to go forawrd.
We keep getting coaches who tell us that we arent capable of producing players technically capable of being of the quality of Japan or Brazil etc.
I think thats bollocks, we are capable of that, our overall technical capability has been improving over the last decade or more, seen by a small handfull of players playing around the world who are of an ability level that we only saw in the occasional individual.
He thinks we need to concentrate on being the fittest team, have the best tactics and having a strong culture.
Tactics can only be successful if players have the technical ability to implement a tactical approach and fitness is something that all teams have high levels of.
I am so sick of hearing coaches push these ideas, the one and only way we will improve is by improving our technical abilities which is what was one of the WoF plans main targets. Its the main thing that junior and youth coaches are asked to concentrate on by NZF on NZF courses at Federation training sessions and among the majority of our junior and youth coaches. There has been improvement, its slow but we are producing more players of a certain level than we have before. It still needs to be better but when the national team coach and DoF is pushing the fitness/tactics/culture agenda thats no different to the last 30 years and the only thing FIFA has ever said about us in technical reports.
I pray for the day I hear our National coaches or our DoF make technical ability the single most important goal and lead the countries coaches in players in that direction.
His comments simply are a continuation of ideas and an approach that hasnt worked.
With respect to technical ability Annalie Longo for example is one player who has the ability to compete with a Japanese player on a technical level. if we can produce her we can produce more. Its a mindset that has to be driven from the top and what we have at the top is a fudgeing dinosaur.
Agree, but SURELY the continued implementation of WOF (just 7 years in, starting from juniors and working up) is the single most important KPI for the NZF Technical Director.
When I hear stories of Heraf demanding defenders not to pass to their midfielders in their own half, I have to ask 2 questions: 1) Why haven't the Federations coaches collectively spat the dummy; are they seriously that fearful, rather than standing up for what is right; 2) why isn't the Board demanding answers from the people who hired this football dictator?
there were no positives from that game, the guy is a Twit. The only positive would be if he resigned
there were no positives from that game, the guy is a Twit. The only positive would be if he resigned
I think there is also another important point here. I see football as broadly having 4 distinct phases. Defence - Attack - Defensive Transition - Attacking Transition. In reality, all are linked. The way you attack will affect the way you will defend in a defensive transition, the way you defend will affect your attack.
Him saying, we are working on one aspect - defence - is completely bogus because you cannot isolate one single aspect of the game without it affecting the rest of your game. Let's say you become an unbelievable defensive side but you are completely negative. You are never going to win games, so you have to introduce some element of attacking play, which will then have to change the way you defend.
I do not see how you can properly coach a football team in 2018 in the way he did on Sunday. It simply does not work and fundamentally it does not make sense.
The story has hit the Guardian
Quite a hilarious effort to try to make all of this go away
Quite a hilarious effort to try to make all of this go away
Would you expect anything else from NZF?
Quite a hilarious effort to try to make all of this go away
Would you expect anything else from NZF?
Martin & Board will be in Russia for Congress meeting (voting United or Morocco?) saying "FFS, leave us alone NZ football media, we're holidaying junketing working."
Evidently Martin has been overseas since going to watch The Champions League Final a few weeks ago. Blatter would be proud of him!