J league versus premiership versus A league
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All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams
J league versus premiership versus A league
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Continuing on the Kiwi's in the UK topic.
The J league is a major step up from the A league.
Top A league players in there off season who move to the J league for a short time can only manage to get into J2 clubs.
There would be no difference in standard from the bottom ten premiership clubs and the standard in the J1 league in Japan and thats being conservative.
I have personally been to games live over the last two years including watching Manchester United and Arsenal play European clubs and also to Japan watching a J league club play and the Japanese National team in one of the World cup qualifiers.
Michael is about 6 foot 2 - 3 and can play left or right back, plays games on a regular basis and fitness wise would be fitter than any of the New Zealand backs in the New Zealand team at present including Ryan Nelson.
The J league is a major step up from the A league.
Top A league players in there off season who move to the J league for a short time can only manage to get into J2 clubs.
There would be no difference in standard from the bottom ten premiership clubs and the standard in the J1 league in Japan and thats being conservative.
I have personally been to games live over the last two years including watching Manchester United and Arsenal play European clubs and also to Japan watching a J league club play and the Japanese National team in one of the World cup qualifiers.
Michael is about 6 foot 2 - 3 and can play left or right back, plays games on a regular basis and fitness wise would be fitter than any of the New Zealand backs in the New Zealand team at present including Ryan Nelson.
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And how do you know how fit Ryan Nelsen is? Not too mention there is a huge gap between EPL and J-League.
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And how do you know there is a huge gap between EPL and J league????
I did say bottom 10 EPL clubs!!
I did say bottom 10 EPL clubs!!
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Continuing on the Kiwi's in the UK topic.
The J league is a major step up from the A league.
Top A league players in there off season who move to the J league for a short time can only manage to get into J2 clubs.
There would be no difference in standard from the bottom ten premiership clubs and the standard in the J1 league in Japan and thats being conservative.
I have personally been to games live over the last two years including watching Manchester United and Arsenal play European clubs and also to Japan watching a J league club play and the Japanese National team in one of the World cup qualifiers.
Michael is about 6 foot 2 - 3 and can play left or right back, plays games on a regular basis and fitness wise would be fitter than any of the New Zealand backs in the New Zealand team at present including Ryan Nelson.
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I can only think of two A-League players that have moved to the Japan, Ufuk Talay and Mark Rudan who moved to a J2 club following the appointment of their former Sydney FC coach Pierre Litbarski at that club. The only other Aussie that I am aware of playing in Japan is Eddie Bosnar who is currently playing for a J1 club - JEF United Chiba - and has been starting regularly yet is deemed not good enough to play for the Australian national team and must therefore sit behind Rodrigo Vargas and Craig Moore in the eyes of coach Pim Verbeek.
I do agree that the J League is currently the best and wealthiest league in Asia, but has some way to go before it can match the might of the top European Leagues. I highly doubt that any of the J1 teams would be competitive over a season in the Premier Leauge.
If you want more proof on the quality of the leauge, here is a list of the club coefficient worked out the same as the UEFA coefficient:
http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68687
[quote]This coefficient is determined by the results of the clubs of the leagues in AFC Champions League and AFC Cups games over the past five seasons.During that period each team gets two points for a win (1 for Qualifying rounds) and one point for a draw (0.5 for qualifying rounds). For games decided by penalty kicks the score after extra time is used.
One bonus point is allocated for reaching the quarter final(in ACL, After 03/04), the semi final,and the final. reaching the group stage throughout Qualifier in 2002-2003 ACL yielded two bonus points.
The J league is a major step up from the A league.
Top A league players in there off season who move to the J league for a short time can only manage to get into J2 clubs.
There would be no difference in standard from the bottom ten premiership clubs and the standard in the J1 league in Japan and thats being conservative.
I have personally been to games live over the last two years including watching Manchester United and Arsenal play European clubs and also to Japan watching a J league club play and the Japanese National team in one of the World cup qualifiers.
Michael is about 6 foot 2 - 3 and can play left or right back, plays games on a regular basis and fitness wise would be fitter than any of the New Zealand backs in the New Zealand team at present including Ryan Nelson.
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I can only think of two A-League players that have moved to the Japan, Ufuk Talay and Mark Rudan who moved to a J2 club following the appointment of their former Sydney FC coach Pierre Litbarski at that club. The only other Aussie that I am aware of playing in Japan is Eddie Bosnar who is currently playing for a J1 club - JEF United Chiba - and has been starting regularly yet is deemed not good enough to play for the Australian national team and must therefore sit behind Rodrigo Vargas and Craig Moore in the eyes of coach Pim Verbeek.
I do agree that the J League is currently the best and wealthiest league in Asia, but has some way to go before it can match the might of the top European Leagues. I highly doubt that any of the J1 teams would be competitive over a season in the Premier Leauge.
If you want more proof on the quality of the leauge, here is a list of the club coefficient worked out the same as the UEFA coefficient:
http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68687
[quote]This coefficient is determined by the results of the clubs of the leagues in AFC Champions League and AFC Cups games over the past five seasons.During that period each team gets two points for a win (1 for Qualifying rounds) and one point for a draw (0.5 for qualifying rounds). For games decided by penalty kicks the score after extra time is used.
One bonus point is allocated for reaching the quarter final(in ACL, After 03/04), the semi final,and the final. reaching the group stage throughout Qualifier in 2002-2003 ACL yielded two bonus points.
With Korea ranked as #1 and Japan #2. I expect Japan to be leading this shortly as they are currently progressing far more quickly than other leagues in Asia.
Bullion2009-03-16 17:29:11
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that club ranking is a little iffy though, obviously with Australia's move into asia the aussie clubs dont have points from before 2007 like the other clubs and it seems that all adds up to give them their final ranking.
scratch that, should read it properly. although would be good to see how all clubs from asia stacked up against each other regardless of if they got in to the ACl or not. be a mission and a half i spose
Christo2009-03-16 17:44:33
scratch that, should read it properly. although would be good to see how all clubs from asia stacked up against each other regardless of if they got in to the ACl or not. be a mission and a half i spose
Christo2009-03-16 17:44:33
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[QUOTE=Bullion]
I highly doubt that any of the J1 teams would be competitive over a season in the Premier Leauge.
Ok Thank you Bullion.
It is nice to have some positive and enlightening feedback.
As to your comment above. This would probably be correct in an English environment as the Asians tend to struggle outside of there own environments but I wonder how the bottom 10 EPL teams would do actually going over to the J league in Japan for a season?
I highly doubt that any of the J1 teams would be competitive over a season in the Premier Leauge.
Ok Thank you Bullion.
It is nice to have some positive and enlightening feedback.
As to your comment above. This would probably be correct in an English environment as the Asians tend to struggle outside of there own environments but I wonder how the bottom 10 EPL teams would do actually going over to the J league in Japan for a season?
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I highly doubt that any of the J1 teams would be competitive over a season in the Premier Leauge.
Ok Thank you Bullion.
It is nice to have some positive and enlightening feedback.
As to your comment above. This would probably be correct in an English environment as the Asians tend to struggle outside of there own environments but I wonder how the bottom 10 EPL teams would do actually going over to the J league in Japan for a season?
I think that some of the teams from the bottom half of the premier league would fancy going unbeaten playing in Japan - Man City, Tottenham as an example. I think it would make a difference on the nature of refereeing in Japan as a lot of those bottom half EPL teams would be far more physical and play the game at a faster pace than their J league counterparts and I would imagine referees in the J league not allowing as much of the rough stuff. Still I would think that the EPL teams would win more than lose.
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how many players have transfered straight from the J-league to the EPL?
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Don't know the answer to that but I know the J league has 45 Brazilians in 18 clubs playing there this year. Not saying though that just because you are Brazilian you are a good player. Maybe the Japanese get paid enough not to have the desire or the wont to leave home??
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FFS, who cares how many Brazilians are in the J-League, irrelevant statistic. Personally, I cannot understand how you could honestly believe that the J-League can rival the world's strongest league, think for a moment if there are any individual players in the J-League who could rival anyone in the starting line-ups of the Premiership's top, say, 6?
You know we belong together...
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And how do you know there is a huge gap between EPL and J league????
I did say bottom 10 EPL clubs!!
Just look at how much money is in the EPL and the quality of players.I did say bottom 10 EPL clubs!!
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I think the point of this arguement was more to do with the Fitzgerald boy who people have said doesn't deserve to be looked at because he is only training at the moment and not playing.
The question is. is training and not playing in the Jleague better than playing in the A league?? Probaly not, game time is more important... but in saying that, why did Costa and Drapes etc get picked when all they do is train and not play, in a team which is at a lower standard than Fitzgeralds team.
The answer to that, Ricki gets to see them day in day out.
Still, surely he must be banging on the door, the fact he has been resigned to a j league club suggest he has talent, lets get the chance to see it!!
Also personally i think clubs like West Brom would not dominate the J League, in support of analyser.
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FFS, who cares how many Brazilians are in the J-League, irrelevant statistic. Personally, I cannot understand how you could honestly believe that the J-League can rival the world's strongest league, think for a moment if there are any individual players in the J-League who could rival anyone in the starting line-ups of the Premiership's top, say, 6?
Yokohama Marinos ( Yuji Nakazawa) Japanese Captain who is reportedly earning more than 100 million annually for one, but I was not referring to top 6 premiership sides and there is no point in this as you obviously only watch one league in the world in any case so a list of Japanese names would mean as much to you as spouting off about brazilian players there.
And as for the FFS please keep your panties on.
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What utter rubbish, teams in the bottom half of the premiership would beat the Japanese National team and quite clearly would dominate. We're talking about sides packed with full internationals from major european nations.
Clearly you think Michael Fitzgerald is a great player, and to get to where he is he must undoubtedly be talented but do you need to go to such extraordinary lengths to try and create a case for him? The J-League is a decent league and the best in the region, better than the A-League, nowhere near the premier league.
When he gets a chance to play we'll see how he goes. For god's sake he is yet to play a competitive professional match. And what do you mean that he is fitter than Ryan Nelsen? Do you mean he'd beat him in a beep test? Probably, that unfortunately is meaningless.
Analyser, you've said in your post that Michael plays games on a regular basis. For whom?
james dean2009-03-17 07:22:41Normo's coming home
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So Michael has not actually played any games for the first team? If so, why are we even comparing A-League vs J- league vs EPL?
And someone mentioned there is no Reserve League in Japan, so is he not getting any game time in a competitive competition?
I think I read an article which mentioned he might get loaned to a J2 league team, to get first team football in 2009. Any more news on this?
Is he about 20-21 now? So, forget about the all whites, surely the recent mens olympic team would have been a good starting point to check him out, so its not just Ricki keeping him out. Stu Jacobs obviously has his doubts. With the Olympics being held in China as well, it would have been playing conditions and climate Michael would have been very used to.
Also, if you look at the clubs our U23 defenders were selected from should we not start comparing them to the J-league?
Michael Boxall (Santa Barbara University � 19)
And someone mentioned there is no Reserve League in Japan, so is he not getting any game time in a competitive competition?
I think I read an article which mentioned he might get loaned to a J2 league team, to get first team football in 2009. Any more news on this?
Is he about 20-21 now? So, forget about the all whites, surely the recent mens olympic team would have been a good starting point to check him out, so its not just Ricki keeping him out. Stu Jacobs obviously has his doubts. With the Olympics being held in China as well, it would have been playing conditions and climate Michael would have been very used to.
Also, if you look at the clubs our U23 defenders were selected from should we not start comparing them to the J-league?
Michael Boxall (Santa Barbara University � 19)
Ian Hogg (Western Suburbs/Hawke's Bay United � 18)
Sam Jenkins (Western Suburbs/Hawke's Bay United � 21)
Ryan Nelsen* (Blackburn Rovers � 30)
Steven Old (Macarthur Rams � 22)
Jack Pelter (Unattached � 20)
Aaron Scott (Melville/ Waikato FC � 21)
Cole Tinkler (Miramar Rangers/Team Wellington � 22)
Also I believe he was eligble for the U20 World in Canada 2007? Which he was also left out of, I think he was training with his J-league side then?
If we build it, they will come...
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In my opinion, (and I have yet to see a premier league game live but I watch alot of it on TV. Also I have been to a J-League game before.) The J-League is not quite yet onto the standard of the EPL - although it is of a high quality, I think that the EPL has the time advantage over the J-League, but with time I reckon the J-League could become a close rival for the EPL
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What makes you think that the J-League will become a close rival for the premier league? Can you attempt to back up that purely speculative statement with something approaching an argument Torne? james dean2009-03-17 07:13:18
Normo's coming home
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Personally, I cannot understand how you could honestly believe that the J-League can rival the world's strongest league, think for a moment if there are any individual players in the J-League who could rival anyone in the starting line-ups of the Premiership's top, say, 6?
You obviously don't realise that Ji Sung Park (the Korean playing for Manchester United) actually started his career in the J-League. He was signed by Kyoto Purple Sanga in 2000 after a year with a Korean University Team and believe it or not none of the Korean Professional sides were interested in signing him after High School. He stayed with Kyoto for 2 years but then moved on to Holland after Kyoto were relegated in 2002 to the J2. His agent (Kamamoto)was the same Japanese Agent that worked with WYNRs to secure a scholarship for Michael Fitzgerald when he first went to Japan in 2004 and actually came to NZ to accompany Fitzgerald to Japan.
Other Japanese players that have ventured to Europe and the likes include:
Nakamura - Celtics (Celtic player of the year 06/07 and Scottish Player of the year 07)
Inamoto - Fullham
Takahara - Hamburg
Nakata - Basel
I think that most Japanese players are happy enough to stay in their own country as they can earn very good salaries in the J-League and therefore probably have no desire to move to countries where they can't speak the language.
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]The question is. is training and not playing in the Jleague better than playing in the A league?? Probaly not, game time is more important... but in saying that, why did Costa and Drapes etc get picked when all they do is train and not play, in a team which is at a lower standard than Fitzgeralds team.
He of course played intersquad games (The squad consisted of 30 players so they had enough to do this (supposedly the intersquad games would determine who the coach was going to pick for his weekend game). If Michael didn't get in the team squad at the end of the week he would play a game in a Reserve Type League on the Sunday (He made the game 15, 4 times but unfortunately didn't get to come on off the bench).
They do have a Reserve League and basically all the J-League players who didn't make the Game 15 would play on the Sunday against each other eg: Albirex would play Urawa Reds, Kyoto, Hiroshima etc, so he was still playing against good opposition, as a lot of times you had first team regulars who were coming back from an injury playing in these games. (He was always a starter in these games - with a squad of 15 there were players that didn't get games every week.) He also played in friendlies against other J-League teams eg: he played in a friendly against Yokohama. Unfortunately he had an injury mid way thru last year and didn't really start coming back from it until around Sept.
As far as I know, Michael is the only Kiwi to have ever been signed by a J1 league club.
He of course played intersquad games (The squad consisted of 30 players so they had enough to do this (supposedly the intersquad games would determine who the coach was going to pick for his weekend game). If Michael didn't get in the team squad at the end of the week he would play a game in a Reserve Type League on the Sunday (He made the game 15, 4 times but unfortunately didn't get to come on off the bench).
They do have a Reserve League and basically all the J-League players who didn't make the Game 15 would play on the Sunday against each other eg: Albirex would play Urawa Reds, Kyoto, Hiroshima etc, so he was still playing against good opposition, as a lot of times you had first team regulars who were coming back from an injury playing in these games. (He was always a starter in these games - with a squad of 15 there were players that didn't get games every week.) He also played in friendlies against other J-League teams eg: he played in a friendly against Yokohama. Unfortunately he had an injury mid way thru last year and didn't really start coming back from it until around Sept.
As far as I know, Michael is the only Kiwi to have ever been signed by a J1 league club.
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As far as I know, Michael is the only Kiwi to have ever been signed by a J1 league club.
Wynton Rufer?
Wynton Rufer?
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As far as I know, Michael is the only Kiwi to have ever been signed by a J1 league club.Wynton Rufer?
A thousand pardons. Of course Lol.
Should I have said under 20????
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What makes you think that the J-League will become a close rival for the premier league? Can you attempt to back up that purely speculative statement with something approaching an argument Torne?
Because simply of the calibre of the players that Japan is starting to produce. A high majority of the players in the J-League are Japanese - and Japan trains them hard. They have the money, they can get the coaches. However I think there is one thing holding them back and that is the Japanese mindset on the field - and in general. When things don't work out right - there is no innovation from players, no one ready and willing to step up. They will try the same thing over and over again until hopefully they get a break. If they can move that problem - I see no other reason why not the J-League could become a close rival to the EPL, apart from maybe the fact that some foreigners might not want to live in Japan.
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Personally, I cannot understand how you could honestly believe that the J-League can rival the world's strongest league, think for a moment if there are any individual players in�the J-League who could rival anyone in the starting line-ups of the Premiership's top, say, 6?
Park can barely make their starting side.�
You obviously don't realise that Ji Sung Park (the Korean playing for Manchester United) actually started his career in the J-League. He was signed by Kyoto Purple Sanga in 2000 after a year with a Korean University Team and believe it or not none of the Korean Professional sides were interested in signing him after High School. He stayed with Kyoto for 2 years but then moved on to Holland after Kyoto were relegated in 2002 to the J2. His agent (Kamamoto)was the same Japanese Agent�that worked with WYNRs to secure a scholarship for Michael Fitzgerald when he first went to Japan in 2004 and actually came to NZ to accompany Fitzgerald to Japan.
�
Other Japanese players that have ventured to Europe and the likes include:
Nakamura - Celtics (Celtic player of the year 06/07 and Scottish Player of the year 07)
Inamoto - Fullham
Takahara - Hamburg
Nakata - Basel
�
I think that most Japanese players are happy enough to stay in their own country as they can earn very good salaries in the J-League and therefore probably�have no desire to move to countries where they can't speak the language.
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Park is quality so stfu.
Three for me, and two for them.
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What utter rubbish, teams in the bottom half of the premiership would beat the Japanese National team and quite clearly would dominate. We're talking about sides packed with full internationals from major european nations.
Clearly you think Michael Fitzgerald is a great player, and to get to where he is he must undoubtedly be talented but do you need to go to such extraordinary lengths to try and create a case for him? The J-League is a decent league and the best in the region, better than the A-League, nowhere near the premier league.
I doubt that West Brom or for that matter any of the 10 bottom teams would beat the Japanese National Team let alone the top teams in the J-League - your comment is an insult to the Japanese National Team. Just last year Manchester United met Gamba Osaka in the semi-finals of the World club Champs and although they beat them 5-3 it certainly was not a thrashing. Unfortunately I don't think the Japanese are very good defensively and two of United's goals came from their lack of ability to defend at set pieces. (I don't know that Analyser is saying that Fitzgerald is a great player but is questioning why the J-League is so poorly rated - obviously it cab't be rated high here, as NZFC players have gotten in ahead of him, not to mention boys who don't even have professional contracts. Ultimately I think if Fitzgerald proves his defensive skills he'll be a shoe in to eventually get game time in the J-League). I should also mention that Japan is one country that a lot of Premiership Teams were going to for their pre-season warm-up matches and training and I doubt they'd be interested in doing this if they weren't going to come up against decent opposition. I'm pretty sure that the J-League teams had wins against these teams as well.
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...I should also mention that Japan is one country that a lot of Premiership Teams were going to for their pre-season warm-up matches and training and I doubt they'd be interested in doing this if they weren't going to come up against decent opposition. I'm pretty sure that the J-League teams had wins against these teams as well.
Okay, that one I will call you on. Like all Premier League sides trups to asia, it has nothing to do with opposition strength and everything to do with the market for merchandise and how much they are paid. By your logic, Chinese clubs, Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore are comparable to the Premier League.
Hard News2009-03-17 17:10:24
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+1, but he didn't go straight from the J-League to United's starting line-up. I personally think that without the international pulling power of the top European leagues the J-League can't grow to similar stature, there would need to be a change in mindset for players all around the world, who have always seen those leagues as the pinnacle of club fotball worldwide.
You know we belong together...
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I actually think that the bottom half of the EPL would struggle in the NSL...
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Park can barely make their starting side.
There's no winning is there? It doesn't matter what arguments you can put up for the J-League a lot of people hate to admit that there are players that have the ability to go from that League and play in Europe let alone the Premiership.
At the end of the day most of United's Squad is rotatable, from where I sit the only regulars are the superstars eg: Rooney, Ronaldo, Ferdinand, Vidich now (when he's not red-carded), Berbatov and even these players get rested. Park has played in crucial games and scored crucial goals for them and I bet they consider him an important member of their squad.
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Okay, that one I will call you on. Like all Premier League sides trups to asia, it has nothing to do with opposition strength and everything to do with the market for merchandise and how much they are paid. By your logic, Chinese clubs, Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore are comparable to the Premier League.
Point taken, but I'm not sure that I've heard of Premiership Teams going to those other Asian countries. I should also mention that Japan is not a cheap country to go to - the accommodation rates are an absolute killer especially if you're staying in 5 Star accommodation - I doubt very much that the Japanese would be paying for the Premiership Clubs to go there.
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I actually think that the bottom half of the EPL would struggle in the NSL...
There's no need to be sarcastic. I think analyser has really opened up some sore points ie: The Asians might actually have some idea about football and of course for a lot of people this can't possibly be true! It's interesting when you look at the EPL there aren't that many English players in it considering it is the English League.
Actually it's not the Europeans and the English that are the Football guns, the South Americans are the real football superstars - they've been producing the stars for years.
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�It's interesting when you look at the EPL there aren't that many English players in it considering it is the English League.
Perhaps the name should be changed to the World Premier league???
Any suggestions for a new name?
Actually it's not the Europeans and the English that are the Football guns, the South Americans are the real football superstars - they've been producing the stars for years.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps the name should be changed to the World Premier league???
Any suggestions for a new name?
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love the banter,
The J league clearly has quality, yes, people have warm up games there to market their teams, but i doubt that is their only incentive, quality competition is needed to. And teams in the J league do push the premiership teams.
The J league wouldn't rival the premiership yet, and probaly wont because it wont get th best from around the world, but they'd give alot of teams in Europe from Holland to France a decent run.
So to the fitzgerald kid again. If he was in the first team squad, playing in Holland 1st division would he be picked. I'd say a definite yes. Yet he's overlooked. Surely the standard he is at and training at is far higher than any other New Zealander back other than Nelsen at the moment.
Yet he's behind players like OLD who plays semi pro, and a bunch of other NZFC players. Explain that with out bias or general fustration from this forum and I will listen happily.
The Jleague is a quality league and hterefor so are the players within it.
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Perhaps the name should be changed to the World Premier league???
Any suggestions for a new name?
Any suggestions for a new name?
I think it should be called the EU League as most of the players are from any country within the EU, ie: they're not classified as a foreigner if they have an EU passport. The old rule of only 3 foreigners per team still applies hence you only have a few players in each team that do not have a European passport and that's why it's so hard for NZrs without the right passport to play in England - I think Nelson and Elliott would be the only two who have managed to do this. Most of those who are there including all the youth palyers, have British passports or access to gain British Residency.
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I actually think that the bottom half of the EPL would struggle in the NSL...
There's no need to be sarcastic. I think analyser has really opened up some sore points ie: The Asians might actually have some idea about football and of course for a lot of people this can't possibly be true! It's interesting when you look at the EPL there aren't that many English players in it considering it is the English League.
Actually it's not the Europeans and the English that are the Football guns, the South Americans are the real football superstars - they've been producing the stars for years.
Not at all. You tottedup several Japanese players who played in the J-league before playing in the EPL. Several Australians played in the NSL before playing in the EPL. Fair and genuine point.
additional: in fact if you want to count Nelsen, Elliot and Vicelich...
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Vicelich doesn't count does he???
He'd have a European passport because of his Croation heritage??
Nelsen and Elliot had to make through talent and by going through and obtaining a work permit to play.
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So to the fitzgerald kid again. If he was in the first team squad, playing in Holland 1st division would he be picked. I'd say a definite yes. Yet he's overlooked. Surely the standard he is at and training at is far higher than any other New Zealander back other than Nelsen at the moment.
�
Yet he's behind players like OLD who plays semi pro, and a bunch of other NZFC players. Explain that with out bias or general fustration from this forum and I will listen happily.
�
The Jleague is a quality league and hterefor so are the players within it.
[/QUOTE]
There is no comparison between Old and Fitzgerald.
But Michael has not played at such a high level as the NZFC or the Wellington Phoenix, has he? Old was a stand out at the Phoenix!
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Vicelich doesn't count does he???
He'd have a European passport because of his Croation heritage??
He'd have a European passport because of his Croation heritage??
Croatia's not part of the EU.
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