New Zealand Men's U-20s

Woow, what a game..
We were terrible. However, might be more reflective of my next point.

I have been watching these u20s WCs for a solid 10-15 years and thats the best performance I have seen from any side at an u20 World Cup. That was phenomenal. The intensity, their movement, their skill their overall ability just was unmatched. They way that drived at our defender, dancing round players, nutmegs etc. all without the typical diving from these sort of nations. Aguirre were both Romero class plus the latter additions of Barco and Veliz. But my pick was Redondo, what a player! Kept things simple (which is never easy), ticking things over allowing the rest of the team to operate. Hardly put a foot wrong. Reminded me of a Sergio Busquets.
For the kiwis, jury is still out on Sims for me. I know he is held in high regards around here but I just don't see it. Herdman changed the intensity when he came on, despite some wayward passing. Surman looked like he could compete, which is more said than majority of the rest of the team.  However, it does put things in perspective when in 2020 Surman was playing for the Selwyn reserve team and Luka Romero was making his debut for Mallorca in La Liga - different gravy!

If the current Redondo is half as good as his great dad was, he will be some player

Mainland Analyst

Woow, what a game..
We were terrible. However, might be more reflective of my next point.

I have been watching these u20s WCs for a solid 10-15 years and thats the best performance I have seen from any side at an u20 World Cup. That was phenomenal. The intensity, their movement, their skill their overall ability just was unmatched. They way that drived at our defender, dancing round players, nutmegs etc. all without the typical diving from these sort of nations. Aguirre were both Romero class plus the latter additions of Barco and Veliz. But my pick was Redondo, what a player! Kept things simple (which is never easy), ticking things over allowing the rest of the team to operate. Hardly put a foot wrong. Reminded me of a Sergio Busquets.
For the kiwis, jury is still out on Sims for me. I know he is held in high regards around here but I just don't see it. Herdman changed the intensity when he came on, despite some wayward passing. Surman looked like he could compete, which is more said than majority of the rest of the team.  However, it does put things in perspective when in 2020 Surman was playing for the Selwyn reserve team and Luka Romero was making his debut for Mallorca in La Liga - different gravy!

still why nz was having such a lame attitude in the first half even though I believe the coach sets the tactics strategy and formation, it was a demolition gave the pitch and the ball to a 4-2-1-3 team with mostly substitutes from local league,  redondo miramon maestro-puch  etc

I don’t want Bazely anywhere near NZ football teams anymore tbh.

Yes, a very disappointing result for the boys which was not helped by the lack of effort shown. The style of play was very Phoenix similar to what you see in the CL, sit back and hit on the break. They lacked any midfield creativity and were punished by a talented technical team. This should be a wake up call for NZF to be sourcing coaches who have vision and are able to play a more technical and creative style to enable us to compete with teams like this.

Mainland Analyst

Woow, what a game..
We were terrible. However, might be more reflective of my next point.

I have been watching these u20s WCs for a solid 10-15 years and thats the best performance I have seen from any side at an u20 World Cup. That was phenomenal. The intensity, their movement, their skill their overall ability just was unmatched. They way that drived at our defender, dancing round players, nutmegs etc. all without the typical diving from these sort of nations. Aguirre were both Romero class plus the latter additions of Barco and Veliz. But my pick was Redondo, what a player! Kept things simple (which is never easy), ticking things over allowing the rest of the team to operate. Hardly put a foot wrong. Reminded me of a Sergio Busquets.
For the kiwis, jury is still out on Sims for me. I know he is held in high regards around here but I just don't see it. Herdman changed the intensity when he came on, despite some wayward passing. Surman looked like he could compete, which is more said than majority of the rest of the team.  However, it does put things in perspective when in 2020 Surman was playing for the Selwyn reserve team and Luka Romero was making his debut for Mallorca in La Liga - different gravy!

I think we also need to remember that any team can look great when playing weaker opponents so we may have made them look better than in reality. We need to also remember they failed to qualify 

Football Ted

Yes, a very disappointing result for the boys which was not helped by the lack of effort shown. The style of play was very Phoenix similar to what you see in the CL, sit back and hit on the break. They lacked any midfield creativity and were punished by a talented technical team. This should be a wake up call for NZF to be sourcing coaches who have vision and are able to play a more technical and creative style to enable us to compete with teams like this.

the nz team looked like the basketball team,  no fight no fouls,  tres leger attitude ,  no INTENSITY for this level

Always enjoy you dropping by Javier, thanks for the perspective and for your interest in NZ football!

 Why is New zealand football so heavily reliant on phoenix academy  to fill their age group squads. Im not convinced phoenix talent recruitment should be the fasttrack to national selection.
Seems a very insular way to build national squads. 

martinb

Always enjoy you dropping by Javier, thanks for the perspective and for your interest in NZ football!

merci mon frere since Reid has retired is a must for nz football to restore RYAN THOMAS as a leader for the team, otherwise, it is a WC in there, 
 
the nz youngsters did good enough, remember the team of argies today was full of substitutes,  they put a display, the first eleven would have taken the foot off the speed, today

if the strategy was playing for a draw to assure 2nd spot failed
if it was not get beaten by 3 , it failed
if it was to pegged argies back on the counterattacks it failed 

the only positive is that NZ cant play as bad as today as a team, there were some glimpses the other day that the team was outsmarted by the usbeks, and  as Mascherano said in the post match interview  he didnt expect nz to play so conservative , in my opinion nz should have gone 4 -4-1-1  and real midfielders to slow down the tempo 
 
number 7 and 11 were of not existence on the flanks,  and they didnt attack and didnt defend well,    NZ number 2 and 15 were very badly exposed,  of course the difference is the experience at this level,  16 of argies 21 have at least  an average of  40 professional matches under their belt in the argentina league or abroad,  even Soulé who is the star of the team from JUVENTUS came in 2nd half 

i would have  gone with 

                      sims 
hughes   linder   surman  supyk
herdman  conchie mckay manuel
       wallace         Donkers

JAVIER16

Football Ted

Yes, a very disappointing result for the boys which was not helped by the lack of effort shown. The style of play was very Phoenix similar to what you see in the CL, sit back and hit on the break. They lacked any midfield creativity and were punished by a talented technical team. This should be a wake up call for NZF to be sourcing coaches who have vision and are able to play a more technical and creative style to enable us to compete with teams like this.

the nz team looked like the basketball team,  no fight no fouls,  tres leger attitude ,  no INTENSITY for this level

I agree about the lack of intensity. It's normal for NZ teams to be outclassed technically and tactically but usually we have some fight, Heardman (and the keeper I guess) was the only guy who looked like he cared. My hope is our guys knew beating Argentina was always very unlikely and instead saved some legs for the round of 16 which we likely make despite the loss. I'm not impressed but I'll save my judgement about intensity until after the round of 16 match (should we get one).

Rufus geronimo

 Why is New zealand football so heavily reliant on phoenix academy  to fill their age group squads. Im not convinced phoenix talent recruitment should be the fasttrack to national selection.
Seems a very insular way to build national squads. 

i assume it's the biggest and best funded academy in the country, it's definitely the only one with a professional pathway. Is it really surprising that our best players gravatate there?

For me the writing was on the wall in the first 3 minutes when both our wide players had received the ball with plenty if space to play forward but show no intention. 

Nothing like a good reality check to keep feet firmly on the ground.

But he can stop his repetitive observations now 

martinb

Always enjoy you dropping by Javier, thanks for the perspective and for your interest in NZ football!

Sure it was a pasting by a very good team from one of the top footballing nations in the world. But it wasn’t that long ago that we would of given our left one to be 1-1-1 in a World Cup. 

Rufus geronimo

 Why is New zealand football so heavily reliant on phoenix academy  to fill their age group squads. Im not convinced phoenix talent recruitment should be the fasttrack to national selection.
Seems a very insular way to build national squads. 

Totally agree, it has been that way for years. It seems to be an easy option but I think the results speak for themselves 

The results that there's been an uptick in the competitiveness of our youth teams and we pretty much consistently make it out of our group?

What other professional youth set ups in nz are being overlooked?

Parents funding the Phoenix Academy, correct? Parents pay thousands of dollars for their kids. It’s by default biased to people who can afford it. Mbappé would never made it through the NZ youth system. The rest of the clubs lack of kids development and funding. Random parents coaching their kids, the whole club vs High school is insane. There is in general no ambition even fir the better kids in locsl clubs, I can’t tell how often the training for my sons U19 got canceled because of weather, people ‘sick’ or whatever. They didn’t do any gym, tactics, nutrition. How in hell should they compete with one training a week against some well drilled Phoenix youth team? It is no wonder that the Nix Academy is a standout, they think they ate the greatest, but compared worldwide they just not.

No one thinks the NIX academy is the greatest, but as you alluded to, it offers young players far better coaching and resources local clubs do.

Rufus geronimo

 Why is New zealand football so heavily reliant on phoenix academy  to fill their age group squads. Im not convinced phoenix talent recruitment should be the fasttrack to national selection.
Seems a very insular way to build national squads. 

Only 4 Nix players in the starting lineup yesterday and it showed. The coaches pet Eastern Suburbs players to a man were awful. Awful display capped off by the coach having a laugh with one of his players when they were 4 zip down. Just don't believe the coach is remotely up to it....talks about being more adventurous but sets up with 3 centre backs. Plays wingbacks who offer nothing going forward. Had to feel for the 9...totally isolated and absolutely no service. Unfortunately NZF coaching is chock full of UK expats who all rub each other's backs. While they persist with this lack of diversity in the coaching group I am not sure we are going to make much progress. Scoreline would have been so much easier to take if we at least showed some intent to compete.

Senegal currently beating Colombia 1-0 at 85 mins.

So might be down to the matches tommorow if we go though.

Colombia equalize at 95 mins. So NZ through to the 16.

We play either the US or Colombia but the structure I downloaded on FIFA site is too complex for me to understand so don't know what one of the two.

What we have in this country is replicated by most other sports except rugby and possibly cricket.  Rugby for example have the support, the money, the history and other resources to fund the development of their best players whereas with football our junior development to any great degree is funded by parents. That means only the financially able can give their kids the opportunity. No use complaining, it is what it is. The local game needs to find a way to replicate what rugby (and football in most other countries) can do. Not an easy task without a benefactor but future world cup payments will be there, will it be used for that purpose?

number8

Parents funding the Phoenix Academy, correct? Parents pay thousands of dollars for their kids. It’s by default biased to people who can afford it. Mbappé would never made it through the NZ youth system. The rest of the clubs lack of kids development and funding. Random parents coaching their kids, the whole club vs High school is insane. There is in general no ambition even fir the better kids in locsl clubs, I can’t tell how often the training for my sons U19 got canceled because of weather, people ‘sick’ or whatever. They didn’t do any gym, tactics, nutrition. How in hell should they compete with one training a week against some well drilled Phoenix youth team? It is no wonder that the Nix Academy is a standout, they think they ate the greatest, but compared worldwide they just not.

Colombia got a late equaliser so think that means we are through for sure now

Israel upset Japan to go through 

with the overcame from ISRAEL now and the 1-1 senegal meant that NZ ARE vs  USA ,  NOW  , nz footballers need to watch ISRAEL after they went 10 men,  theywon it with  ballls!!!!  not football only,  balls!!!  

they were sharke when 11 vs 11 once that idiot substitute got sent off  they went berserk!!!

Napier Phoenix

What we have in this country is replicated by most other sports except rugby and possibly cricket.  Rugby for example have the support, the money, the history and other resources to fund the development of their best players whereas with football our junior development to any great degree is funded by parents. That means only the financially able can give their kids the opportunity. No use complaining, it is what it is. The local game needs to find a way to replicate what rugby (and football in most other countries) can do. Not an easy task without a benefactor but future world cup payments will be there, will it be used for that purpose?

number8

Parents funding the Phoenix Academy, correct? Parents pay thousands of dollars for their kids. It’s by default biased to people who can afford it. Mbappé would never made it through the NZ youth system. The rest of the clubs lack of kids development and funding. Random parents coaching their kids, the whole club vs High school is insane. There is in general no ambition even fir the better kids in locsl clubs, I can’t tell how often the training for my sons U19 got canceled because of weather, people ‘sick’ or whatever. They didn’t do any gym, tactics, nutrition. How in hell should they compete with one training a week against some well drilled Phoenix youth team? It is no wonder that the Nix Academy is a standout, they think they ate the greatest, but compared worldwide they just not.

just for your comfort,  Messi didnt make it in Argentina because he came from a middle class family, his dad was supervisor from one big company, and his family didnt have any conexions in the football underage world ,  so  he was rejected  by a few teams,  RIVER told his dad, he is good, but we have 7 players better in his position and the thing about growing is just an urban legend,  

coochiee

Colombia got a late equaliser so think that means we are through for sure now

Israel upset Japan to go through 

Yeah Slovakia (group b) and Japan (group c) both finish 3rd on 3 points. We had 4 points. And 4/6 best 3rd place teams go through.

3rd in group A plays winner of B or C (USA or Colombia), but formula for how that is worked out was too complex for me to understand.

USA look very very good. Luna and their striker will cause us huge problems.

young players most of them dont make it worldwide,  unless you have some inside connections with some dads or coaches around ,  I heard by some irish friends that in Ireland is moreless the same situation,  your kid is as good as the connections papa has in the football underage world 

MetalLegNZ

USA look very very good. Luna and their striker will cause us huge problems.

Haven't watched their games but they 'only' beat Fiji 3-0. Did they rest players?

Colombia also look good but not as scary as Argentina.

number8

Parents funding the Phoenix Academy, correct? Parents pay thousands of dollars for their kids. It’s by default biased to people who can afford it. Mbappé would never made it through the NZ youth system. The rest of the clubs lack of kids development and funding. Random parents coaching their kids, the whole club vs High school is insane. There is in general no ambition even fir the better kids in locsl clubs, I can’t tell how often the training for my sons U19 got canceled because of weather, people ‘sick’ or whatever. They didn’t do any gym, tactics, nutrition. How in hell should they compete with one training a week against some well drilled Phoenix youth team? It is no wonder that the Nix Academy is a standout, they think they ate the greatest, but compared worldwide they just not.

just for your comfort,  Messi didnt make it in Argentina because he came from a middle class family, his dad was supervisor from one big company, and his family didnt have any conexions in the football underage world ,  so  he was rejected  by a few teams,  RIVER told his dad, he is good, but we have 7 players better in his position and the thing about growing shots and vitamins in CATALUNYA that is just an urban legend,  

nz cant play brazil , is USA OR COL 

Ryan

The results that there's been an uptick in the competitiveness of our youth teams and we pretty much consistently make it out of our group?

7DDA5273-9737-4EEE-8D2D-2520DB636FF6.png 3.27 KB

These are the statistics for the group stage matches in the four consecutive progressions to the next round. 2023 is by far the worst in terms of goal difference, shots for, shots against and average possession. 2015 and 2017 both had a net shot for/against of -16, 2023 has a net of -56! That’s the very opposite of an uptick.

To eliminate one variable, Bazeley was the coach in both 2015 and 2017, so the stats being far worse can’t solely be attributed to him being a worse coach than the previous tournaments.

2019 under Buckingham stands out, it really had a ridiculous amount of quality in the starting 11.

carlind

Ryan

The results that there's been an uptick in the competitiveness of our youth teams and we pretty much consistently make it out of our group?

7DDA5273-9737-4EEE-8D2D-2520DB636FF6.png 3.27 KB

These are the statistics for the group stage matches in the four consecutive progressions to the next round. 2023 is by far the worst in terms of goal difference, shots for, shots against and average possession. 2015 and 2017 both had a net shot for/against of -16, 2023 has a net of -56! That’s the very opposite of an uptick.

To eliminate one variable, Bazeley was the coach in both 2015 and 2017, so the stats being far worse can’t solely be attributed to him being a worse coach than the previous tournaments.

2019 under Buckingham stands out, it really had a ridiculous amount of quality in the starting 11.

Sure, but I notice that 2015 was after the Phoenix Academy started.

Football Ted

Yes, a very disappointing result for the boys which was not helped by the lack of effort shown. The style of play was very Phoenix similar to what you see in the CL, sit back and hit on the break. They lacked any midfield creativity and were punished by a talented technical team. This should be a wake up call for NZF to be sourcing coaches who have vision and are able to play a more technical and creative style to enable us to compete with teams like this.

Totally agree with you, mate.

I predicted a 5-0 loss to Argentina which is what happened.

There were some good players in our team but I think that Bazeley is completely out of his depth

Our side had no midfield which allowed the opposition to play straight through us and put constant pressure on the defence throughout the game. It was hard to pinpoint any tackles or occasions where we won the ball in midfield.

It was the same in all the games, even when we  were lucky to win vs. Guatemala and predictably conceded two goals against Uzbekisatan after being 2-0 up at halftime.

It's a real shame because we actually had some capable attacking players (Herdman, Garbett, Karunaratne at times, Colotty was industrious) and our defenders were largely competent (except when put under too much pressure by the rest of the team just sitting back and offering no cover) but the big negative factor for me was no effective midfield (Herdman did well with the small possession he had, while Conchie showed potential to progress further) and poor tactics.

What unsettled the team too was Bazeley fielding largely a completely different lineup in each game. Five changes from the first to the second game.

He made seven changes to the starting lineup vs. Argentina from the game vs. Uzbekistan (all outfield players) which doomed our chances.

I fear that the All Whites could also get thrashed in Stockholm next month.

How do those 2023 stats look if you remove the ARG game?
Playing the 5 time U20 WC tourney winners at home, something that 2015, 2017 or 2019 never had to do.

Bazeley could have done better, and looked like some of the players froze on such a big occasion (easily biggest game most of them would ever have played - and some will ever play) - but fudge some of those Argy goals were pure class. As someone else said their players really are different gravy.

I still give ourselves a shot against Colombia. We have played plenty of Latino teams recently, and we will start a stronger lineup. Bigger underdog I'd say against the Yankees.

Am I the only one not feeling completely doom-and-gloom after the 5-0? My only fear is morale will have taken a knock, but I have trust that a first-choice team will give a great showing. We rotated the hell out of our defence against Argentina and our backups aren’t good enough, but with Hughes and a healthy Surman I’m a lot more confident

It should also be remembered that we hosted in '15 and so avoided a team from the top 8 seeds that we would usually play. That team probably wouldn't have made it out of the group if we were in any other. 

Let's be honest, we got a lucky goal against Guatemala and a couple of freak goals against Uzbekistan. This tournament could have been much uglier. This has been a poor showing from the team and Bazeley. It wouldn't have been fair to expect them to match the style and results that Des' team did given the superiority of that playing group but the team has underperformed this time around and we surely need to see another coach take charge for the next u20 cycle. Paul Temple had his u22 team playing pretty well against China, I'd like to see him have a go if he isn't too busy with the Phoenix women to do both. 

mrsmiis

Am I the only one not feeling completely doom-and-gloom after the 5-0? My only fear is morale will have taken a knock, but I have trust that a first-choice team will give a great showing. We rotated the hell out of our defence against Argentina and our backups aren’t good enough, but with Hughes and a healthy Surman I’m a lot more confident

Agree. Our defence had been impressive in the first 2 games. 

But then Bazeley rotates in Linder & Raj for their first games, in a cauldron against world class youngsters. It's no wonder it's part deer in the headlights. I also wonder if we would have gone a bit better if a core of this group had gone to a U17 WC, and so had a prior taste of the big stage. It's a long long way from Madills Farm, to playing in front of 25,000 passionate Argy fans. If you are coming from Lazio it's no adjustment at all.

I hope the Colombians or Americans take us easily. Oh & we need a plan to get more out of Donkers or Colloty, they are just passengers at the moment. Put Wallace up beside either?