New Zealand Men's U-20s

coochiee

How do those 2023 stats look if you remove the ARG game?
Playing the 5 time U20 WC tourney winners at home, something that 2015, 2017 or 2019 never had to do.

Bazeley could have done better, and looked like some of the players froze on such a big occasion (easily biggest game most of them would ever have played - and some will ever play) - but fudge some of those Argy goals were pure class. As someone else said their players really are different gravy.

I still give ourselves a shot against Colombia. We have played plenty of Latino teams recently, and we will start a stronger lineup. Bigger underdog I'd say against the Yankees.

FD08D04D-732E-4FF5-BDC8-11BC0FF692B2.png 3.06 KB

These are how the stats look without the Argentina game. For fair comparison it only includes the two matches against the teams from Pots 3 and 4 in each group stage. In 2015 NZ were Pot 1 as hosts and have been Pot 2 in the ‘17, ‘19 and ‘23 tournaments. 2019 had two wins, the other three a win and a draw.

The possession in the Uzbekistan game (31%) is the lowest for NZ across all eight fixtures, but the Guatemala game was marginally the highest (58%). The net shots is still considerably lower even after taking away the Argentina mauling.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think the change in centre backs affected the result. Raj got a taster closing out against Guatemala, though it was Linder’s first run. If anything, Hughes and Kelly-Heald are probably quietly happy they were rested to avoid a similar fate. At the end of the day, those two are Central League players just as Raj is a Northern League player.

We need to be more assertive in possession. Manuel if he starts needs to think more positively with his passing.

Wallace, Collotey, Herdman and karunratane to start. Give us some technical players capable of beating a player and playing a higher tempo.

anything but the nz boys must put a fight on the pitch, they looked and played like basketball players. 

the main problem is the midfield  linder who didnt play was the best defender from the 11,  maybe in holding midfield ?

someone behind 6 conchie to allow him to great assertive passes on the pitch, maybe a center back,  

we played 2 holdings  yesterday  miramon and redondo, one of them was near conchie the whole match

Rufus geronimo

 Why is New zealand football so heavily reliant on phoenix academy  to fill their age group squads. Im not convinced phoenix talent recruitment should be the fasttrack to national selection.
Seems a very insular way to build national squads. 

Interesting feedback coming from parents and players at WC that there are 2 groups, Phoenix and non-Phoenix. The Phoenix group drink and socialise with the coaches etc and Paul Temple demanding the Phoenix players start.
This I feel breaches any fair play and something many always assumed was happening which NZ football either is aware of or turns a blind eye too.
How are we to improve on the football stage if things are so one sided?

Football Ted

Rufus geronimo

 Why is New zealand football so heavily reliant on phoenix academy  to fill their age group squads. Im not convinced phoenix talent recruitment should be the fasttrack to national selection.
Seems a very insular way to build national squads. 

Interesting feedback coming from parents and players at WC that there are 2 groups, Phoenix and non-Phoenix. The Phoenix group drink and socialise with the coaches etc and Paul Temple demanding the Phoenix players start.
This I feel breaches any fair play and something many always assumed was happening which NZ football either is aware of or turns a blind eye too.
How are we to improve on the football stage if things are so one sided?

Edit - removed my comment, as I hadn't really thought it through when I replied.

Football Ted

Rufus geronimo

 Why is New zealand football so heavily reliant on phoenix academy  to fill their age group squads. Im not convinced phoenix talent recruitment should be the fasttrack to national selection.
Seems a very insular way to build national squads. 

Interesting feedback coming from parents and players at WC that there are 2 groups, Phoenix and non-Phoenix. The Phoenix group drink and socialise with the coaches etc and Paul Temple demanding the Phoenix players start.
This I feel breaches any fair play and something many always assumed was happening which NZ football either is aware of or turns a blind eye too.
How are we to improve on the football stage if things are so one sided?

This reaks of BS or hyperbole. 4 Nix players started against Argentina, 5 if you count Manuel. Don't know Temple personally, but everything I've read about him sounds like he's highly professional.

Since the first caveman kicked a circular rock, parents have been complaining that their little Johnny or Jane, has been overlooked for someone inferior in their eyes. 

Every outfield player has started at least 1 of the 3 pool games. So they have all had a chance to stake a claim to start the next game. 

For all the bitching about the Nix dominating the squad, I've yet to see the names of any alternative players thrown up from the NZ Domestic leagues, or US College scene - who should have been picked instead. Is there someone running around at Wharfies, Cashmere Tech or Birkenhead who would have done a better job on Romero & Co?

I'm going to call bullsharke.

What does this drinking look like - was Paul having a drink at the hotel bar when some of the parents came in for one - and instead of ignoring them said hello, thanks for the support etc, before finishing his drink and retiring to bed.

Thats not unprofessional, i'd argue the other. Now if he was out to 3am with them we have an issue.

How do they know that Paul Temple is demanding NIX players start - are they in on selection meetings... these will be closed doors. And given the heavy degree of rotation over the 3 games, even if he was, its not happening, which basically negates any claim of bias.

If you want a conspiracy theory, go buy a MAGA hat and dive into FOX news.

And this is the Argentian 11 that started against NZ. Yipe we should have done better, Bazeley probably ain't the coach Des was, and 2023 U20 squad vintage ain't up there with the 2019 team.

But Argentina are a different class, all at pro clubs. Lets remember LPA is a higher standard than the Chilean league Marco Rojas is sometimes running around in.

Gomes Gerth (Tigre uncapped in  Liga Profesional Argentina/LPA)
Vega (Barcelona II/3rd tier Spain)
V. Gómez (Vélez Sarsfield 34 games in LPA)
Di Lollo (Boca Juniors, 8 bench appearances in LPA)
Infantino  (Rosario Central, 65 games in LPA) 
Miramón (Gimnasia La Plata , 15 games in LPA)
Redondo (Argentinos Juniors, 28 games in LPA)
Gauto  (Huracán, 30 games in LPA) 
Romero (14 games with Lazio in Serie A & 7 with Mallorca in La Liga)
Aguirre (Newell's Old Boys, 23 games in LPA)
Maestro Puch (Atlético Tucumán, 29 games in LPA) 

MetalLegNZ

I'm going to call bullsharke.

What does this drinking look like - was Paul having a drink at the hotel bar when some of the parents came in for one - and instead of ignoring them said hello, thanks for the support etc, before finishing his drink and retiring to bed.

Thats not unprofessional, i'd argue the other. Now if he was out to 3am with them we have an issue.

How do they know that Paul Temple is demanding NIX players start - are they in on selection meetings... these will be closed doors. And given the heavy degree of rotation over the 3 games, even if he was, its not happening, which basically negates any claim of bias.

If you want a conspiracy theory, go buy a MAGA hat and dive into FOX news.

No BS or conspiracy theory and was not referring just to the Agy game but there is definitely a repetitive theme being talked about

coochiee

And this is the Argentian 11 that started against NZ. Yipe we should have done better, Bazeley probably ain't the coach Des was, and 2023 U20 squad vintage ain't up there with the 2019 team.

But Argentina are a different class, all at pro clubs. Lets remember LPA is a higher standard than the Chilean league Marco Rojas is sometimes running around in.

Gomes Gerth (Tigre uncapped in  Liga Profesional Argentina/LPA)
Vega (Barcelona II/3rd tier Spain)
V. Gómez (Vélez Sarsfield 34 games in LPA)
Di Lollo (Boca Juniors, 8 bench appearances in LPA)
Infantino  (Rosario Central, 65 games in LPA) 
Miramón (Gimnasia La Plata , 15 games in LPA)
Redondo (Argentinos Juniors, 28 games in LPA)
Gauto  (Huracán, 30 games in LPA) 
Romero (14 games with Lazio in Serie A & 7 with Mallorca in La Liga)
Aguirre (Newell's Old Boys, 23 games in LPA)
Maestro Puch (Atlético Tucumán, 29 games in LPA) 

 

I don’t buy that at all. Two groups of parents, sure, possibly 3 or 4. Birds of a feather flock together. Some of the Phoenix parents will be hanging out together, they no doubt knew each other already and had a beer in club rooms after games last couple of years. Maybe some of the Auckland parents hang out together. English ones might hang with other English ones. That’s natural. 
But any suggestion Paul Temple or any of the other coaches are hanging out socialising with any of these groups of parents other than in passing during player visitation periods is duplicitous.

Drama breaking out in the thread. I'm not there and I've got no connections to anybody involved, and while I'm not saying there is any truth to the claim that there are inappropriate cliques/nix favouritism (as I've got no dog in the fight and I wouldn't know), I'm a bit surprised at the vehemence/certainty of the denials from people who ostensibly wouldn't know as they are not there either

Yes but there are some on here (not me) who have had sons in national age teams in the last few years. They will be in a pretty good position to assess even from afar what is likely happening, having been through it before first hand. 

Don't think anyone will be denying there will be cliques whether is the playing group, or parents over there. That's not unnatural. But asserting Paul Temple is demanding Nix players start - I say BS.

I think you could read that comment to say that Temple himself is hearing demands from a clique of Nix parents that their kids start, rather than he being the person demanding Bazeley that the nix players start, which I agree doesn't make much sense/wouldn't be likely 

coochiee

Yes but there are some on here (not me) who have had sons in national age teams in the last few years. They will be in a pretty good position to assess even from afar what is likely happening, having been through it before first hand. 

Don't think anyone will be denying there will be cliques whether is the playing group, or parents over there. That's not unnatural. But asserting Paul Temple is demanding Nix players start - I say BS.

 
Not trying to look for any drama and being a neutral or bystander myself, all I was doing was passing on chatter being overheard. Similar chatter came from the U17 WC four years ago and yes it could be just sour grapes from those individuals but usually when you hear things there are usually elements of truth in it. Hence the need for transparency at our national level which is not aligned to any club will reduce any of these bias perceptions 

imanixsupporter

I think you could read that comment to say that Temple himself is hearing demands from a clique of Nix parents that their kids start, rather than he being the person demanding Bazeley that the nix players start, which I agree doesn't make much sense/wouldn't be likely 

Exactly this, it'll be the parent talking to a coach demanding thier boy plays/starts/gets more game time. If the coach is "favouring" a particular group it'll be because they are seen as the better players for the game at the time, or because their skills are better known which could be seen by parents as "the coach is favouring his own club/academy players over my child".

Football Ted

coochiee

Yes but there are some on here (not me) who have had sons in national age teams in the last few years. They will be in a pretty good position to assess even from afar what is likely happening, having been through it before first hand. 

Don't think anyone will be denying there will be cliques whether is the playing group, or parents over there. That's not unnatural. But asserting Paul Temple is demanding Nix players start - I say BS.

 
Not trying to look for any drama and being a neutral or bystander myself, all I was doing was passing on chatter being overheard. Similar chatter came from the U17 WC four years ago and yes it could be just sour grapes from those individuals but usually when you hear things there are usually elements of truth in it. Hence the need for transparency at our national level which is not aligned to any club will reduce any of these bias perceptions 

I dont know about asian underage parents worldwide but in AUS NZ , EUROPE  LAS AMERICAS FROM NORTH TO SOUTH,  parents are the same !!  and there is always a business involve,  the better players worldwide never make it, for many many circunstances it is not NZ  I told you about some guy named MESSI , he didnt have a chance in ARGENTINA's big teams,  of course his dad could have tried a 2nd  or 3 rd tier, but that is the long road  as  STEPHEN FINNAN did all the way up to LIVERPOOL, and he was a right back, a good player but a fullback

Personally I'd take what parents say with a grain of salt. Huge generalisation, but parents who live vicariously through their children can be very protective and take offense easily. As was said above it could be the natural clique from parents who are friends already, as their kids play at the Phoenix academy, that's been taken the wrong way.

There's been no evidence of favouritism on the field, except in the fact that such a large percentage of the squad were Phoenix players (which the commentator team praised as a good decision in the first game as they already knew each other and meant they could play together despite a limited build up).

fifa and wikipedia are indicating it is the US the kiwis' rival

JAVIER16

fifa and wikipedia are indicating it is the US the kiwis' rival

The only combinations of teams which can now qualify are:
ABD & E (if Honduras draw or lose against France) or
ABD & F (If Honduaras beat France)

Under both scenarios 3A (New Zealand) play 1B (USA).

Match is 5:30am on Wednesday

Maaaaaaatt

JAVIER16

fifa and wikipedia are indicating it is the US the kiwis' rival

The only combinations of teams which can now qualify are:
ABD & E (if Honduras draw or lose against France) or
ABD & F (If Honduaras beat France)

Under both scenarios 3A (New Zealand) play 1B (USA).

Match is 5:30am on Wednesday

yeah  the only thing to finalize is BRAZIL's rival , tunisia, honduras or france,  france is the left field option they have lost 2 they wont sweep away Honduras UNLESS fifa wants to sell  bra vs fra 

USA group was the easiest of the 6 on paper and on the pitch, but nz team they need intensity, as ISRAEL did to eliminate the blondish JPN, in another note I didnt know that the japanese younsters they love to be so trendy and fashion boys,  they all acted like they were male models or actors,  now they can take pictures of themselves going back home. The rest of the other 23 teams they looked sport youngsters , but the japanese looked and acted so cocky and shallow!!

you realise that the 2 athletes you named did actually make it? Perhaps not via national age group selection but they still made it. 

JAVIER16

Football Ted

coochiee

Yes but there are some on here (not me) who have had sons in national age teams in the last few years. They will be in a pretty good position to assess even from afar what is likely happening, having been through it before first hand. 

Don't think anyone will be denying there will be cliques whether is the playing group, or parents over there. That's not unnatural. But asserting Paul Temple is demanding Nix players start - I say BS.

 
Not trying to look for any drama and being a neutral or bystander myself, all I was doing was passing on chatter being overheard. Similar chatter came from the U17 WC four years ago and yes it could be just sour grapes from those individuals but usually when you hear things there are usually elements of truth in it. Hence the need for transparency at our national level which is not aligned to any club will reduce any of these bias perceptions 

I dont know about asian underage parents worldwide but in AUS NZ , EUROPE  LAS AMERICAS FROM NORTH TO SOUTH,  parents are the same !!  and there is always a business involve,  the better players worldwide never make it, for many many circunstances it is not NZ  I told you about some guy named MESSI , he didnt have a chance in ARGENTINA's big teams,  of course his dad could have tried a 2nd  or 3 rd tier, but that is the long road  as  STEPHEN FINNAN did all the way up to LIVERPOOL, and he was a right back, a good player but a fullback

Ray of hope. We have also beaten Ecuador 1-0 & Fiji 3-0, recently

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/world-cup/132170880/new-zealand-to-meet-unbeaten-united-states-in-round-of-16-at-fifa-under20-mens-world-cup

coochiee

Ray of hope. We have also beaten Ecuador 1-0 & Fiji 3-0, recently

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/world-cup/132170880/new-zealand-to-meet-unbeaten-united-states-in-round-of-16-at-fifa-under20-mens-world-cup

I wouldn't be too dismissive of the US team. They are a quality team who went through winning three games, conceding none and having 64 shots. They might've only scored 3 against Fiji, but that was more their own profligacy in front of goal - they had 31 shots and hit the woodwork three or so times. They also kept Ecuador and Slovakia scoreless, who both looked pretty slick going forward against Fiji (though obvious caveat that it's Fiji).

The article mentions winger Kevin Paredes, but he missed the group stage as Wolfsburg wanted to keep him for the final day, so they will be adding a lot of quality with his arrival. He has one goal and three assists in 22 Bundesliga games this season, so hopefully jetlag/lack of familiarity will stifle him, because that's a lot more club involvement than Luka Romero had and we saw what he could do. 

They should also be adding midfielder Rokas Pukstas, who also missed the group stage due to club commitments at Hajduk Split. He has played 21 times this season (1,382 minutes), scoring four and assisting three to help Hajduk finish second in Croatia. Whether he will slot straight in is hard to know, but he's another with a lot of top level European experience. 

Just got to be thankful Paxten Aaronson wasn't released, as he is another star of this US cohort and was the Golden Ball winner at the CONCACAF U19s last year. It seems Eintracht Frankfurt didn't release him, even just for the knockout stages like Paredes and Pukstas. Of course, their local guys are all regular MLS players and shouldn't be dismissed just because they aren't in Europe yet; Herdman is yet to even get a matchday squad there.

The game will be a tougher test than Uzbekistan was, and any result looks like it'll be based on the rear guard, as going forward has looked a bit lost during the group stages. 5-3-2 again? Play for penalties? Can't rely on long range shooting, need some quality chances in the opposition's box.

Far from being dismissive of the US, we will be huge underdogs. They gave NZ a 6-0 hiding at the same stage in 2017. It could go that way again. I had hoped we would get Colombia.

Playing for pens though a negative plan, is also sort of realistic. But we need to get more involvement out of Colloty and/or Donkers up front. Hopefully Surman is fit. Even half fit, I imagine 'Reid like' he'll start just for the confidence/stability he'd add. And why not try 4 at the back, with McKay, Manuel & Conchie all starting. Nothing to lose, expectations are low.

Piney chats to Surman. Sounds like he's fit, all good to go.
KO 5.30am tomorrow.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/sportstalk/audio/finn-surman-its-been-the-largest-crowds-anyone-in-the-team-has-played-in-front-of

Interesting analysis. Lets see what Baze does. Nothing to lose, almost a free swing against the Americanos.

https://theniche-cache.com/football/2023/5/29/aotearoa-at-the-2023-mens-u20-world-cup-complete-fustigation-vs-argentina

Bazeley mentioned tiredness as a factor post-game. That doesn’t entirely track with having made six changes to the starting line-up though it could explain Conchie and Surman having stumbles. Baze also hyped up the quality of the opponents and talked about this as a “learning experience”. He’s not wrong... but it will be very interesting to see how much he himself has learned because going into this USA game there’s a genuine worry that this team has been thoroughly dominated in two games in a row. They may have grabbed a draw against Uzbekistan but the stats were not flattering. Then it was even worse against Argentina...

 

Possession and shots are the two to focus on there. Horrendous stuff. Obviously against the hosts there was going to need to be a defensive set-up but the back five just isn’t working for them because the wing-backs aren’t positionally strong enough. They’re fullbacks being asked to play a more expansive role (O’Leary a little less so but he’s had trouble defensively). That’s fine, they’re still good players, the point is that the formation isn’t suiting them. An extra midfielder would have been more useful than an extra defender against Argy. Meet them on the battlefield rather than waiting for the siege to begin.

There was a 22 minute period in the first game, after Norman Garbett and Ben Wallace were subbed on until Aaryan Raj was subbed on to revert things, in which they used a 4-2-3-1 shape. It was during that spell that they scored their goal. They also started that way against Uzbekistan before switching back to the five defenders at half-time... with a 2-0 lead.

Now, what happened might have happened regardless. Can’t necessarily say the formation was the decisive factor. But we can say that in 67 minutes of back four football the Aotearoa lads have scored three goals and conceded zero. In 203 minutes (plus all of the second half stoppage times) with a back five they have scored zero goals and conceded seven. That is a massive disparity right there.

JAVIER16

Football Ted

coochiee

Yes but there are some on here (not me) who have had sons in national age teams in the last few years. They will be in a pretty good position to assess even from afar what is likely happening, having been through it before first hand. 

Don't think anyone will be denying there will be cliques whether is the playing group, or parents over there. That's not unnatural. But asserting Paul Temple is demanding Nix players start - I say BS.

 
Not trying to look for any drama and being a neutral or bystander myself, all I was doing was passing on chatter being overheard. Similar chatter came from the U17 WC four years ago and yes it could be just sour grapes from those individuals but usually when you hear things there are usually elements of truth in it. Hence the need for transparency at our national level which is not aligned to any club will reduce any of these bias perceptions 

I dont know about asian underage parents worldwide but in AUS NZ , EUROPE  LAS AMERICAS FROM NORTH TO SOUTH,  parents are the same !!  and there is always a business involve,  the better players worldwide never make it, for many many circunstances it is not NZ  I told you about some guy named MESSI , he didnt have a chance in ARGENTINA's big teams,  of course his dad could have tried a 2nd  or 3 rd tier, but that is the long road  as  STEPHEN FINNAN did all the way up to LIVERPOOL, and he was a right back, a good player but a fullback

Sorry off topic. But here's another one for you who has taken the long road to the top (well the EPL).

Congo international Pelly Ruddock Mpanzu, will be the first player in history to go from the Conference to the Premier League with the same team.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/world-game/300892970/want-to-visit-the-premier-leagues-newest-stadium-youll-have-to-go-through-someones-backyard

It appears new rules for VAR at U20WC?
Just watched the Honduras France;
Incident just outside box, ref gave nothing, clearly indicating he felt no foul. VAR had a look, confirmed it was outside the box, no penalty. That’s where it is supposed to stop, refs on field decision to stand. However VAR set ref to sideline monitor, who then gave a FK outside the box.
Setting a precedent there for VAR to make rulings on ‘other’ incidents.

It wasn't used because a free kick was missed, it was used because a red card was missed for DOGSO. 

"VAR is used only for "clear and obvious errors" or "serious missed incidents" in four match-changing situations: goals; penalty decisions; direct red-card incidents; and mistaken identity."

So in that game because it wasn't in the box and VAR thought it was a DOGSO red card, they sent the referee to the sideline to view it, which he did then come on and announce the freekick and the red card to the French defender.

Just watched an interview with one of the US kids, he talks about the NZ match at 5 mins in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxWTQdc7ris&ab_channel=It%27sCalledSoccer

Interesting that he says the US is getting reinforcements coming in... e.g a couple of guys for the r16 onwards who weren't available in the group matches. Sounds like they will be even stronger.

Yakcall

It wasn't used because a free kick was missed, it was used because a red card was missed for DOGSO. 

"VAR is used only for "clear and obvious errors" or "serious missed incidents" in four match-changing situations: goals; penalty decisions; direct red-card incidents; and mistaken identity."

So in that game because it wasn't in the box and VAR thought it was a DOGSO red card, they sent the referee to the sideline to view it, which he did then come on and announce the freekick and the red card to the French defender.

Oh, ok, thanks, that makes sense.  Was multitasking; completely missed the red card.

siac

Just watched an interview with one of the US kids, he talks about the NZ match at 5 mins in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxWTQdc7ris&ab_channel=It%27sCalledSoccer

Interesting that he says the US is getting reinforcements coming in... e.g a couple of guys for the r16 onwards who weren't available in the group matches. Sounds like they will be even stronger.

Yes Carlind above mentions winger Kevin Paredes (22 Bundesliga games with Wolfsburg), and midfielder Rokas Pukstas (21 matches with Hajduk Split, 4 goals), as now joining the US squad for the knockout games. NZ's chances have got even slimmer. 

Come on Kiwi! 

Hi guys - USA fan stopping by to learn a little about our opponents today. Would love to hear perspective on the match from your side, some players from NZ to look out for and answer any questions about the US team!

The US team had a really strong showing in the group stage (although I agree as someone mentioned that it was a somewhat weak group). The technical level across our squad is higher than any we have had in our history, and that is definitely raising the floor of our play. The main weakness of our team I think is lacking finishers, especially when we play without a true center forward, which we often do since our only one is Darren Yapi #19. While he has shown some flashes, he is not one of our best 11. Our best CF in this age group, Ricardo Pepi, is a senior player now and the coach elected not to bring him. So, we may dominate possession and create a lot of chances but we may open up more and leave space for the counter the longer it stays 0-0 (first goal was 66' against Fiji but they couldn't take advantage).

Most of our players are squad level or in the fringes in MLS, but a few around Europe as well. I don't know how well-known they are outside of American soccer circles, so happy to answer questions if anyone has any!

Top stuff so far.

Who would have guessed we’d look better with a four-at-the-back?

Love the Linder selection ahead of Jarvie at RB

oh piss off