I'm interested on getting everyones opinions on why, broadly, our national teams don't create a lot and don't score a lot (talking against non-OFC nations of course!). Stretching across Mens, U23 Mens, U20 Mens, U17 Mens, Womens, U20 Womens and U17 Womens. Even when we have had some success (e.g. U17 WWC bronze, Olympics quarterfinals), we've still not been very prolific going forward. So why?
New topic btw because it covers several national teams...
I think although NZ has more talented players with technical ability then ever before, the lack of “street skills” and vision is quite apparent. There is no real player who can get the player and dribble past the opponent (Singh maybe the expectation). Not one play can do a nice little nutmeg or a shimmy that confuses the defender and opens the game up (I remember the Peru game a few months ago and they did 2/3 times and could have scored and it’s something common to many Southern European, Latin and African countries ). If we remember, the Costa Rica goal came from a nice shimmy from the wing that opened up the field. We produce good players in a structured environment and setting, but against better opponents, it has its limitations. In Argentina, we call this “Troncos “ which means Tree Trunk, basically big physical players but with little skill or vision to run past or dribble an opponent and create those half chances. Think futsal and general Street football can produce this, something NZ doesn’t have.. yet
Des Buckinghams U20 team scored plenty of goals at that world cup. Maybe we should be asking this question to Des.
They scored 8 goals, 5 of which came against the worst side to ever go to an U20 World Cup, a Honduras side who conceded 19 goals in three games and didn't score once. Even Tahiti 'only' conceded 14.
To address the main point, the crux of the issue is that we simply aren't that good. We live in a vacuum almost, where the only football covered in local media is English, not even the National League gets any. So we can identify we aren't at the same level as France, Germany, England, Brazil, Argentina etc, but then assume we are on level, if not higher, footing than all the countries that exist slightly below that elite level. In reality, these teams have much stronger talent pools, but escape the consciousness due to the players being based in far-flung leagues such as Ligue 1, Serie A, Eredivisie or the Bundesliga.
Take Luxembourg for example, if you ran a poll asking who is better, almost every NZ-football-aware person would probably say New Zealand. In reality, 11-vs-11, they probably have a better team. They have a Championship striker, a Bundesliga midfield, a keeper playing for Belgian title contenders; their weak point is probably an Eredivisie fullback. You see it also with how people always argue "our ranking isn't accurate, we're actually better than that", which is based on the same premise, that we're somewhat ignorant of other countries. Reality is, we're 100+ ranked for a reason, and beating down on hapless Oceanian fishermen inflates the collective ego, so that when we play stronger sides like Peru, Costa Rica, Australia, Mexico, Portugal, Japan etc, our expectations far exceed the reality.
Rectifying that is far easier said than done though. It would require players developing to a much higher level in their teenage years, to be able to transition into foreign professional leagues. The Phoenix alone is not sufficient to provide opportunities for a nation's worth of talent, so the massive bottleneck that is created needs to be alleviated by getting players overseas. In the resource-strapped, amateur environment that is football here, it is extremely difficult to compete with what multi-million funded academies can offer elsewhere.
Des Buckinghams U20 team scored plenty of goals at that world cup. Maybe we should be asking this question to Des.
They scored 8 goals, 5 of which came against the worst side to ever go to an U20 World Cup, a Honduras side who conceded 19 goals in three games and didn't score once. Even Tahiti 'only' conceded 14.
To address the main point, the crux of the issue is that we simply aren't that good. We live in a vacuum almost, where the only football covered in local media is English, not even the National League gets any. So we can identify we aren't at the same level as France, Germany, England, Brazil, Argentina etc, but then assume we are on level, if not higher, footing than all the countries that exist slightly below that elite level. In reality, these teams have much stronger talent pools, but escape the consciousness due to the players being based in far-flung leagues such as Ligue 1, Serie A, Eredivisie or the Bundesliga.
Take Luxembourg for example, if you ran a poll asking who is better, almost every NZ-football-aware person would probably say New Zealand. In reality, 11-vs-11, they probably have a better team. They have a Championship striker, a Bundesliga midfield, a keeper playing for Belgian title contenders; their weak point is probably an Eredivisie fullback. You see it also with how people always argue "our ranking isn't accurate, we're actually better than that", which is based on the same premise, that we're somewhat ignorant of other countries. Reality is, we're 100+ ranked for a reason, and beating down on hapless Oceanian fishermen inflates the collective ego, so that when we play stronger sides like Peru, Costa Rica, Australia, Mexico, Portugal, Japan etc, our expectations far exceed the reality.
Rectifying that is far easier said than done though. It would require players developing to a much higher level in their teenage years, to be able to transition into foreign professional leagues. The Phoenix alone is not sufficient to provide opportunities for a nation's worth of talent, so the massive bottleneck that is created needs to be alleviated by getting players overseas. In the resource-strapped, amateur environment that is football here, it is extremely difficult to compete with what multi-million funded academies can offer elsewhere.
I agree with parts of this, but if you look at so many of our games against "good" top 50 nations (Australia, Costa Rica, Peru x3, etc.) - we are quite competitive in midfield and defence (well, usually), but can't get any results because we don't score. This is a problem across most NZ teams. Why?
I'm going to chuck one in the mix - our youngsters don't see enough live football. There is a massive difference between watching televised and live football. Television kind of equalises things, if that makes sense - it's not until you see very good players and teams live that you realise just how different things are in terms of pace and movement and stuff like that. I mean, you watch a star on TV when you're a kid, go outside and emulate the trick or skill or shot they did - it feels awesome, we've all done it! But it's not until you actually see those players live, and see all of the aspects in play of pace and power and skill, do you really get a sense of what is really involved.
This leads to people in NZ saying stuff like "there's a guy in the Northern/Central/Southern league who could easily play for the Nix" without really grasping just how different the level is. I remember watching Thierry Henry play live - I had never seen a human move that fast in my life. When watching him on TV you knew he was quick - but seeing it live, it was a whole different thing. Even watching top pros warmup before a match - you just see the quality of touch and stuff and you just don't get that same appreciation watching on TV.
So I think this plays a part with our national team too - the level required to score consistently against decent teams is not understood because it maybe hasn't been seen/understood before. How often have our successful pros been criticised or called arrogant when they call our NZF or refuse callups, when it actual fact they're actually right in what they're saying? I know I'm starting to ramble a bit now, but it's back to your point - we struggle to score because maybe we don't actually appreciate the actual level required?
Just a theory, who knows - am still dark after yesterday.
With the exception of Wood, neither the Ferns nor AWs have any top level strikers.
With the AWs there is no one in the current squad scoring consistently anywhere.
Woodsman is on the bench at Newcastle, Greive ditto at St Mirren, De Jong didn't score a goal in 2 (injury ravaged) seasons at AmaZulu, Waine is not a certain to start for the Nix this season. McCowatt does have 2 goals from 10 Helsingor games this term - but it's only the Danish 2nd tier.
But the only Kiwis scoring consisently are in weak leagues like Canada (Dyer & Bevan), Ireland (Mata) & Finland (Rogerson & Whyte). Collier has been doing little at San Antonio of late, after starting the USL season with a bang.
A guy like Garbett for all his promise, still doesn't look a goal threat at international level. I think he only scored 1 goal at his time at Falkenbergs (where he played mostly as a striker??), and don't think he's netted many for Torino U19s. But he's young (only 20), and hopefully as he matures will be calmer when he gets in a position to shot and pick his spot.
Remember him, Payne & Greive all just shoooting straight at Ryan over these 2 games. Maybe Stamenic (or Just) fired into Ryan's midriff as well?? Hopefully these young guys as they play more as pros, will improve their finishing. It needs to happen for the AWs to progress.
And of course the return of Singh will be a massive boost. He was scoring and providing assists in Bundesliga 2 prior his groin injury. He's high class at dead ball delivery. Plus has the vision that no other AWs player has. Remember his great ball to Wood verus The Gambia (or was it Curacao).
With the exception of Wood, neither the Ferns nor AWs have any top level strikers.
With the AWs there is no one in the current squad scoring consistently anywhere.
Woodsman is on the bench at Newcastle, Greive ditto at St Mirren, De Jong didn't score a goal in 2 (injury ravaged) seasons at AmaZulu, Waine is not a certain to start for the Nix this season. McCowatt does have 2 goals from 10 Helsingor games this term - but it's only the Danish 2nd tier.
But the only Kiwis scoring consisently are in weak leagues like Canada (Dyer & Bevan), Ireland (Mata) & Finland (Rogerson & Whyte). Collier has been doing little at San Antonio of late, after starting the USL season with a bang.
A guy like Garbett for all his promise, still doesn't look a goal threat at international level. I think he only scored 1 goal at his time at Falkenbergs (where he played mostly as a striker??), and don't think he's netted many for Torino U19s. But he's young (only 20), and hopefully as he matures will be calmer when he gets in a position to shot and pick his spot.
Remember him, Payne & Greive all just shoooting straight at Ryan over these 2 games. Maybe Stamenic (or Just) fired into Ryan's midriff as well?? Hopefully these young guys as they play more as pros, will improve their finishing. It needs to happen for the AWs to progress.
And of course the return of Singh will be a massive boost. He was scoring and providing assists in Bundesliga 2 prior his groin injury. He's high class at dead ball delivery. Plus has the vision that no other AWs player has. Remember his great ball to Wood verus The Gambia (or was it Curacao).
While still quite young and a while away yet, Donkers and Colloty are showing some great potential. Considering they were both in the top 5 goal scorers for their respective National Leagues this past season and how well they have done for the U20s so far, I think they deserve at least an invite to trial outside of NZ.
Donkers was apparently born in the Netherlands and it may be a longshot but he could possibly get an invite back there to trial with an Eredivisie club's academy and if successful, could eventually go on to make the 1st team, just like Thomas did at PEC Zwolle.
because you are not together much time, since most of your good footballers are in scandinavia , in my opinion NZ must arrange a game in europe in november with the european based players bar 1 or 2
Because we don't play together enough for it to jell. Apparently they had one session before playing Australia.
Don't agree with this. Look at all the friendlies Hay was given before the Costa Rica match up. More than any previous All whites coach. This is the same team.
Our coaching style is evolving in the right direction, but it is very much 'process' focused. Pass move, proper decisions, movement before event and lots of recycling possession.
All good stuff, but as a result there is a huge focus on keeping play tidy and controlled at the expense of creating tangible attacking outputs.
Moments of broken play are discouraged. Broken play is when you disrupt the opposition's best defensive plans. Dribbling is rare. Dribbling breaks the play. Even a drop of the shoulder to create a yard for a dangerous delivery is given second priority to recycled possession. Too often I see players, when recieving the ball, position their shoulders to only play backwards. At least make your defender second guess you with an open body position. The nix are serial offenders.
Generally, our players are more technical. However, the pace of the local game is very slow. Technique needs to be tested and improved in higher tempo games.
In the past, we have scored a lot of goals from midfield and set peices. Our midfielders no longer run beyond the front line. Our set peices no longer pose a threat. Malcolm Dunford wasn't prominent from set peices by accident; there was an art to what he did. This art has been neglected.
I made a joke about teaching Smeltz’s feint/jink to the right before shooting, but maybe there’s a bit to that? Perhaps there’s a bit of comfort zone in getting a shot off that hits the keeper or gets blocked in that you’ve made a clear attempt and not duffed it or whatever… But trying to do that bit extra to get the defender or keeper to commit before picking spot.
Also I think we’ve got to pick on form. But currently club form is the same as international form- only really Just and Cacace have had decent club seasons. Tuiloma’s scored a few, but isn’t a bolted on starter. Bell’s a bit out of form, as is Woodsie, despite both being excellent players. I think that’s really it- we’ve got no in form goal scorers. In that situation I can understand the punt on de Jong, especially playing off Wood.
Play in form goal scorers and we’ll get goals. Sounds a bit simplistic, but maybe it’s a reasonable theory?
In that goal scoring is muscle memory and also an addiction to all the good feelings you get each time you knock one in. If you’re not doing it it’s harder to get back that habit.
Not sure on that. How many kids in other parts of the world get to watch top pros live all of the time? To be influenced in the way you describe? I am certain it does happen but not to the degree you say. Khalil Media
I'm going to chuck one in the mix - our youngsters don't see enough live football. There is a massive difference between watching televised and live football. Television kind of equalises things, if that makes sense - it's not until you see very good players and teams live that you realise just how different things are in terms of pace and movement and stuff like that. I mean, you watch a star on TV when you're a kid, go outside and emulate the trick or skill or shot they did - it feels awesome, we've all done it! But it's not until you actually see those players live, and see all of the aspects in play of pace and power and skill, do you really get a sense of what is really involved.
This leads to people in NZ saying stuff like "there's a guy in the Northern/Central/Southern league who could easily play for the Nix" without really grasping just how different the level is. I remember watching Thierry Henry play live - I had never seen a human move that fast in my life. When watching him on TV you knew he was quick - but seeing it live, it was a whole different thing. Even watching top pros warmup before a match - you just see the quality of touch and stuff and you just don't get that same appreciation watching on TV.
So I think this plays a part with our national team too - the level required to score consistently against decent teams is not understood because it maybe hasn't been seen/understood before. How often have our successful pros been criticised or called arrogant when they call our NZF or refuse callups, when it actual fact they're actually right in what they're saying? I know I'm starting to ramble a bit now, but it's back to your point - we struggle to score because maybe we don't actually appreciate the actual level required?
Just a theory, who knows - am still dark after yesterday.
