All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

Progress Report - 2 years since the WC

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Progress Report - 2 years since the WC

Normo's coming home

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What is the state of play in NZ football since the WC?  Has anyone seen any genuine progress in the way players are trained and prepared?  I guess we're starting from such a low base that it is inevitable to some extent that there has been some improvements but I worry we're really still a long way from an AWs team where each player is a full pro at first team level in a decent league which is the minimum we need to get anywhere.
 
I read articles like this about Aussie and worry
 
 
If they're not getting anywhere, where the hell does that mean we are?
 
Anyone have a view on this stuff?

Normo's coming home

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I tend to agree with you.  We are starting to see more young players, male and female, heading overseas but then this was the case 12/13 years ago following the U18 WC we hosted. Reading the article Berger did make mention that even Germany has taken a long time (10 years) to make the changes required to play competitive football.
 
I think 2014 will be the make or break as by then players like Howieson, Rojas, Adams etc will be showing us where NZ mens football is at.
 
Womens football has definately made strides and I look forward to the day that netball is officially replaced by "the world game" as NZs favouite women's sport, while getting the same coverage that the minority sport of netball gets on TV today.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
disco_mart wrote:
Womens football has definately made strides and I look forward to the day that netball is officially replaced by "the world game" as NZs favouite women's sport, while getting the same coverage that the minority sport of netball gets on TV today.
I completely agree with this. Women's football in NZ has been a bit of an unheralded success story but I get the feeling that times are about to change. Netball is crap, football is a much better sport both to watch and play.

In terms of the men's game things are a bit harder to judge. We have a great generation of players just starting out their club careers (Wood, Rojas, Kosta, Gleeson, Reid, Smith, Howieson, Keat etc) but there still seems to be a significant disconnect between age-group football and broader ideas about developing football. Our Olympic qualifying campaign was less than impressive and decisions like leaving out Rowe from that squad or Chettleburgh from the U20s are bizarre. While we have good players coming through there are still a couple of positions  where we look potentially thin: the most worrying is defensive midfielders as Elliott has retired and Vicelich can't be too far away. Maybe those private academies will help to develop the next generation though!

One of the problems I think is inherent in NZ football (and I have seen it in cricket too) is the prevalence of nepotism at provincial age-group level. Too often talented kids are left out so the coaches son and his mates can be in the reps and these players just drift away from the game over time. I used to coach a team of 14/15 year olds and one of them had a younger brother who was maybe 8 or 9 and was by far and away the best kid of his age I have ever seen, but the family were immigrants and the kid wasn't even invited to trial for the regional rep team because he didn't know anyone. I'm not sure what's happened with him since but I remember thinking at the time that it was ludicrous that such a talented kid was missing out. A more professional approach to the management of age-group football would go a long way to helping the sport IMO. Also, there are a large amount of immigrants from Africa, Europe, Asia and even South America who play football at parks on the weekend with their mates but don't take part in formal competitions. If they could be encouraged to join clubs and so on I think it would really help develop a broad base of football players to draw on in future years. However I think there exists a certain amount of casual racism which excludes these players or at least makes them feel unwelcome (I used to play on a team that was mostly Indians and Arabs and we often got called terrorists, and sometimes worse, by opposing players. It really pissed me off as a pakeha lad too because I like to think my country should be above that sh*t) Even if this is only the actions of one or two idiots here and there it is enough to put people off, and rightly so I think.

We shouldn't forget the difficulties facing developing football in NZ. We are geographically isolated which makes arranging freindlies against quality opposition hard, and this in turn makes raising the profile of the AWs hard. Talented young footballers in NZ might pursue other sports because football is not as high profile here too. NZ is also a tiny market which means we can't afford to support a professional league, and Australia's joining with Asia has made getting NZ teams into the A leaguemuch harder than it otherrwise would have been. At the same time, we have the advantage of being the Oceania heavyweight now which effectively means we get entry to every FIFA tournament except the senior men's WC, but even for that we only really have to win a 2-legged playoff.

One heartening thing to see is the amount of young football fans out there though. Rugby is suffering from over-exposure and poor management, and globalisation of media etc means that kids can follow football easy as, plus it seems like anyone who owns a playstation or xbox has the FIFA game, which also helps raise the profile of the real version of the game. Hopefully this means that footballl will continue to rise in popularity.

Anyway, that is my take on the state of football developoment in NZ. Overall I think the future still looks pretty rosy but NZF needs to continue to strive to develop coaches and players at all levels of the game, or else the success of the 2010 AWs will just be another 1982 all over again. I'm not currently convinced that they have done enough, but I'm also not currently involved in youth football so maybe there's stuff going on I'm not aware of.

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

disco_mart wrote:
Womens football has definately made strides and I look forward to the day that netball is officially replaced by "the world game" as NZs favouite women's sport, while getting the same coverage that the minority sport of netball gets on TV today.
I completely agree with this. Women's football in NZ has been a bit of an unheralded success story but I get the feeling that times are about to change. Netball is crap, football is a much better sport both to watch and play.In terms of the men's game things are a bit harder to judge. We have a great generation of players just starting out their club careers (Wood, Rojas, Kosta, Gleeson, Reid, Smith, Howieson, Keat etc) but there still seems to be a significant disconnect between age-group football and broader ideas about developing football. Our Olympic qualifying campaign was less than impressive and decisions like leaving out Rowe from that squad or Chettleburgh from the U20s are bizarre. While we have good players coming through there are still a couple of positions� where we look potentially thin: the most worrying is defensive midfielders as Elliott has retired and Vicelich can't be too far away. Maybe those private academies will help to develop the next generation though!One of the problems I think is inherent in NZ football (and I have seen it in cricket too) is the prevalence of nepotism at provincial age-group level. Too often talented kids are left out so the coaches son and his mates can be in the reps and these players just drift away from the game over time. I used to coach a team of 14/15 year olds and one of them had a younger brother who was maybe 8 or 9 and was by far and away the best kid of his age I have ever seen, but the family were immigrants and the kid wasn't even invited to trial for the regional rep team because he didn't know anyone. I'm not sure what's happened with him since but I remember thinking at the time that it was ludicrous that such a talented kid was missing out. A more professional approach to the management of age-group football would go a long way to helping the sport IMO. Also, there are a large amount of immigrants from Africa, Europe, Asia and even South America who play football at parks on the weekend with their mates but don't take part in formal competitions. If they could be encouraged to join clubs and so on I think it would really help develop a broad base of football players to draw on in future years. However I think there exists a certain amount of casual racism which excludes these players or at least makes them feel unwelcome (I used to play on a team that was mostly Indians and Arabs and we often got called terrorists, and sometimes worse, by opposing players. It really pissed me off as a pakeha lad too because I like to think my country should be above that sh*t) Even if this is only the actions of one or two idiots here and there it is enough to put people off, and rightly so I think.We shouldn't forget the difficulties facing developing football in NZ. We are geographically isolated which makes arranging freindlies against quality opposition hard, and this in turn makes raising the profile of the AWs hard. Talented young footballers in NZ might pursue other sports because football is not as high profile here too. NZ is also a tiny market which means we can't afford to support a professional league, and Australia's joining with Asia has made getting NZ teams into the A leaguemuch harder than it otherrwise would have been. At the same time, we have the advantage of being the Oceania heavyweight now which effectively means we get entry to every FIFA tournament except the senior men's WC, but even for that we only really have to win a 2-legged playoff.One heartening thing to see is the amount of young football fans out there though. Rugby is suffering from over-exposure and poor management, and globalisation of media etc means that kids can follow football easy as, plus it seems like anyone who owns a playstation or xbox has the FIFA game, which also helps raise the profile of the real version of the game. Hopefully this means that footballl will continue to rise in popularity.Anyway, that is my take on the state of football developoment in NZ. Overall I think the future still looks pretty rosy but NZF needs to continue to strive to develop coaches and players at all levels of the game, or else the success of the 2010 AWs will just be another 1982 all over again. I'm not currently convinced that they have done enough, but I'm also not currently involved in youth football so maybe there's stuff going on I'm not aware of.


Very disappointed to read that you think that nepotism is still alive and well in NZ football.Have had the same experience as yourself some years ago.As you mentioned I doubt things have changes that much.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think a certain amount of nepotism is inevitably the priuce you pay for a game that is run by volunteers by and large.  People naturally get involved because their kids are involved - I do have some sympathy there.  But that's where you need proper structures to remove people from the decision making, or have professionals involved.

Normo's coming home

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I assume its the same in other major centres as it is in chch, the federation office has a decent number of staff (Football development officers etc) who can oversee the selection of rep teams and federation/national academies.

We have a few ex AW's down here who no doubt are a valuable asset in terms of knowledge, but should they be selecting rep teams or FTC/NTC squads which their kids are eligible for? surely we have enough quality people around to eliminate any nepotism...

The WoF plan is a good start...if it is followed. Getting everyone singing from the same sheet is hopefully gunna bring everyone up to speed.

The FTC and NTC programs are good, and will hopefully be expanded.

My concern is that there is a gap between 16 and 19-20 in terms of rep program. Example: in Canterbury we have south island tournaments from 11s up to 16s...then nothing until the baby dragons (ASB youth), most of these kids are 19-20ish. We have a local U/18 'club' tournament which is decent and 1 club usually goes to napier, but thats barely enough IMO
gings2012-04-21 02:05:57


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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think the nepostism thing is a bit of red herring - any kid who walks away from a sport they are talented at because they missed out on a team they think they should be in, is likely to walk away from the sport later due to some other reason.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Who is responsible for overseeing implementation of the WOF plan regionally?  And who is in charge of the programme nationally?

 
Having a plan is one thing but it needs to be properly put in place.
 
Jonesy is right, but football is traditionally a white, middle class game in NZ and getting athletes from outside those areas involved who might not have their folks naturally take them down to their local club is important.

Normo's coming home

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
feed the kids more butter and cows until they get to be Chris Wood


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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie Mac wrote:
I think the nepostism thing is a bit of red herring - any kid who walks away from a sport they are talented at because they missed out on a team they think they should be in, is likely to walk away from the sport later due to some other reason.
 
But is it walking away, or does that person, male or female, miss out on recieving the required coaching to bring out the best in them, and that player then dissapearing into the wood work and eventually out of the game?
 
I can think of many examples like this based on geography, ie not living in Auckland, Hamilton, Napier, PN, Welli, Nelson, CHC or Dunners.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:

Who is responsible for overseeing implementation of the WOF plan regionally?  And who is in charge of the programme nationally?



Football Development Managers in each federation.

Director of Football Development in NZF.
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
disco_mart wrote:
Frankie Mac wrote:
I think the nepostism thing is a bit of red herring - any kid who walks away from a sport they are talented at because they missed out on a team they think they should be in, is likely to walk away from the sport later due to some other reason.
 
But is it walking away, or does that person, male or female, miss out on recieving the required coaching to bring out the best in them, and that player then dissapearing into the wood work and eventually out of the game?
 
I can think of many examples like this based on geography, ie not living in Auckland, Hamilton, Napier, PN, Welli, Nelson, CHC or Dunners.
That was what I was going to say - its about missing out on coaching and experience. Plus if a kid is good at football and another sport, say swimming or cycling or something, and they get overlooked for football they might focus on the other sport instead. I don't think in this case you can say they necessarily would have walked away later on... they might have wlaked away from the other sport instead because there is so much more money in football.

Interestingly, from my (albeit) breif experience with age-group rep teams in rugby this doesn't seem to be a problem there because there is too much interest from all the various coaches and parents for it to happen. If football can one day mean as much to ordinary kiwis as rugby does then I think the nepotism problem would diminsh significantly

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
So from what I gather from the above two or three posts the Football Development managers of each Federation are the champions of talent in their regions and responsible for the WoF Plan implementation.They report to the NZF  Director of Football Development.
 
Seems to me there's an opportunity (if it doesn't already exist) for a football stats analysis or sports software type firm to j v with NZF to create a national database of Football talent.

Starting at the earliest level talented youngsters could be identified, provided with appropriate opportunities for football fun, skills development and coaching. Opportunities to incorporate the latest technology and analysis at appropriate age group levels in appropriately equipped regional centres could also be identified. There'd need to be regular systematic reviews and monitoring of each talented player's status throughout their footballing lifetime.

This could help lower the rate of loss of talented individuals,  provide earlier identification and intervention points to enable extra, focussed coaching where required and help Regional and National Football admins and coaches foster the Football talent pool more effectively.

  Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
nice topic JD

in terms of results, the senior All Whites have gone backwards considerably and failed to kick on from the World Cup

the good news is that our player base seems much thicker, with most of those in the frame now fully pro

unsurprisingly, post-world cup rumors such as 'bertos to werder bremen' failed to materialise.  we shouldn't be shocked by this

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