All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

RULES for the final qualifier Oct 10/Nov

85 replies · 5,631 views

over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Actually in 1.) If the teams have tied aggregated score after two legs of the playoff; either by win and lost games apiece or by drawn games, then the team with the most away goals will win the playoffs. The away goals are not doubled but merely used as a deciding factor.

Same diff.

What you said and "away goals count double only if aggregate is the same" is exactly the same thing. Its just better to say it your way,as the double goal thing tends to confuse people

Allegedly

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

liverpoolfan1 wrote:

one_eyed_nik wrote:

In the paper the other day it mentioned that away goals does not count in extra time.

...and once ET starts, away goals cease to have any significance, apart from the fact they are goals.

Do you have a reference to cite for that? I can't find one. The only thing I note is that comps where extra-time away goals are significant, such as the Champs League, specifically state that whereas the FIFA WC regs don't. However, when UEFA experimented and decided the away goals rule only applied before extra-time, they specifically stated that too, whereas again the FIFA WC regs don't.

It's the absence of any statement either way that has those of us who come from a European-UEFA following of football believing that the norm of extra-time away goals applying as away goals is in force. What's the norm outside of Europe?

A literal interpretation of the WC regs would suggest you're right and no away goals rule would apply to extra-time - "If the score is level after extra time, penalty kicks will be taken to determine the winner in accordance with the procedure described in the Laws of the Game." No statement about away goals in extra-time at all.

There doesn't seem to be any qualification regulation documents, beyond the format documents that don't contain such detail. So I went and looked at the AFC regs and found the Asian Cup regulations uses the away goals rule for goals scored in extra time:

If during extra time, both Teams score the same number of goals, away goals count as double (i.e. the visiting Teams qualifies).

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I can't remember my reference....sorry. I just remember reading it somewhere....and not just in yesterday's paper. Will try to find a definitive answer this week.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

If that case of away goals in ET count, then it must be unfair for the home team in the second leg since ET does not occur in the first leg. It would actually give the visiting team 30 extra minutes to nab the away goals which in that case I am not a fan of such a rule.

I would logically think that when it goes to ET, then away goals rule does not stand. I thought that ET is applied after the full time away goals is counted and not the other way round.AllWhitebelievr2009-10-11 21:46:36

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

SiNZ wrote:

. . .

The tournament regs aren't specific: The team having scored most goals over the two games will qualify for the next round. If both teams score the same number of goals over the two matches, the goals scored away will be counted as double. If the same number of goals is scored away or both matches end without any goals being scored,(then) extra time of two periods of 15 minutes each will be played. If the score is level after extra time, penalty kicks will be taken to determine the winner in accordance with the procedure described in the Laws of the Game.

ï¿½

ï¿½

Personally, I would like to lose the away goal rule altogether. It's there to promote attacking play for the away team, butï¿½can create a defensive mind set for the home team instead. On the other hand, it helps avoid penalties.

It's specific enough in the tournment regulation you have quoted already. You missed the comma.

I added in "then" in italics to explain the sentence better.

It seems to me that it was clear enough that away goals only count in normal time and if that fails, then ET of two 15 minute periods is played.AllWhitebelievr2009-10-11 21:57:46

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I can only quote the regs exactly as they are. Adding in words of our own doesn't make any difference.

As I said, a literal reading would seem to indicate the away goals rule stops at the end of 90 minutes meaning, as I said, that I agree with you. However, other tournaments make a specific statement each way in their regs and FIFA's lack of statement does make it ambiguous.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

AllWhitebelievr wrote:

The counter argument is that it's unfair for one team to have played 90 minutes home and 120 minutes away without something to balance it out. Tough one either way - no right answer is there. ( Except scrapping the away goals approach altogether?)

UEFA only played one season without the away goal rule applying to extra-time goals (2006/07-ish). Did they ever say why they reverted back to counting extra-time away goals? I never saw a statement, just a change in regulations.

SiNZ2009-10-11 22:13:50

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Just sent an email to NZF regarding away goals rule so hoping for a reply soon. Although knowing NZF it could take weeks.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

timmymadden wrote:

Just sent an email to NZF regarding away goals rule so hoping for a reply soon. Although knowing NZF it could take weeks.

Or you will get an incorrect answer

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Someone email the FIFA President instead.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Labour weekend is coming up so the office will be closed down

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

All academic. We dick them over 90 minutes then we don't have to worry about anything else. Simple.

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

No email from NZF but it is only 9am, office hours obviously haven't started yet

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Email response from NZF

NZF wrote:

Hi Tim

Yes the FIFA regulations can take a bit of reading but this is our interpretation

FIFA Laws of the Game 2009/10 Edition ï¿½ Away Goals ï¿½.if the aggregate score is equal after the second match, any goals scored at the ground of the opposing team will count double.

If Bahrain score a goal NZ must score two. Indeed any margin in favour of NZ will ensure we go through.

If the score is 0-0 then we will go to extra time. I have looked at the World Cup regulations and the Laws of the Game as to the effect of the away goal rule if a goal is scored during extra time. Both documents appear silent on this however it is usually the case that the away goals rule does not apply to goals scored during extra time as extra time is only played after the second leg so arguably the team travelling away first (in this case NZ) would be disadvantaged.

Hope this helps.

Glyn Taylor

Competitions Manager

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

By the sounds of that, even NZF aren't 100% sure - they are just assuming. I've emailed FIFA's media department to try and get some clarity - will report back.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

That was the feeling I got too, the email almost contradicts itself saying any goals on the opposing teams ground counts double, and then saying at the end the law usually doesn't apply during extra time in WCQ games.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

liverpoolfan1 wrote:

By the sounds of that, even NZF aren't 100% sure - they are just assuming. I've emailed FIFA's media department to try and get some clarity - will report back.

Most of them are in Egypt. Took me two days to get a reply from them.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Im just wondering this may have been asked but if it is a nil all draw at full time and heads to extra time does the away goal rule apply?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Shogan wrote:

Im just wondering this may have been asked but if it is a nil all draw at full time and heads to extra time does the away goal rule apply?

Your joking right, thats the question everyones asking about 2 posts up

. As far as we know it doesn't but no ones 100% sure

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

clark007e wrote:

Shogan wrote:

Im just wondering this may have been asked but if it is a nil all draw at full time and heads to extra time does the away goal rule apply?

Your joking right, thats the question everyones asking about 2 posts up

. As far as we know it doesn't but no ones 100% sure

HAHA all right bro just a case of cant be stuffed reading all the posts my bad cheers

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Shogan wrote:

Im just wondering this may have been asked but if it is a nil all draw at full time and heads to extra time does the away goal rule apply?

Oh for goodness sake.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Shogan wrote:

clark007e wrote:

Shogan wrote:

Im just wondering this may have been asked but if it is a nil all draw at full time and heads to extra time does the away goal rule apply?

Your joking right, thats the question everyones asking about 2 posts up

. As far as we know it doesn't but no ones 100% sure

HAHA all right bro just a case of cant be stuffed reading all the posts my bad cheers

Fair Enough

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

timmymadden wrote:

Email response from NZF

NZF wrote:

Hi Tim

Yes the FIFA regulations can take a bit of reading but this is our interpretation

FIFA Laws of the Game 2009/10 Edition ï¿½ Away Goals ï¿½.if the aggregate score is equal after the second match, any goals scored at the ground of the opposing team will count double.

If Bahrain score a goal NZ must score two. Indeed any margin in favour of NZ will ensure we go through.

Hope this helps.

Glyn Taylor

Competitions Manager

surprise surprise NZF dont even know

Allegedly

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Actually I've just read it again..

"FIFA Laws of the Game 2009/10 Edition ï¿½ Away Goals ï¿½.if the aggregate score is equal after the second match, any goals scored at the ground of the opposing team will count double."

"however it is usually the case that the away goals rule does not apply to goals scored during extra time as extra time is only played after the second leg"

Sounds like extra time is not counted as being part of the 2 legs, rather a smaller 3rd leg. Possibly a penis? (Sorry I had to throw that in).

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

timmymadden wrote:

Email response from NZF

NZF wrote:

Hi Tim

Both documents appear silent on this however it is usually the case that the away goals rule does not apply to goals scored during extra time as extra time is only played after the second leg so arguably the team travelling away first (in this case NZ) would be disadvantaged.

In both UEFA and AFC competitions it is usually the case that the away goals rule does apply to goals scored during extra time.

Edit: CONCACAF don't usually apply away goals rule to extra time.

SiNZ2009-10-12 19:35:40

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

timmymadden wrote:

I have to ask on what page of the Laws that second quote comes from. The 09/10 laws have only two mentions of away goals.

On page 30:

When competition rules require there to be a winning team after a match or home-and-away tie, the only permitted procedures for determining the winning team are those approved by the International F.A. Board, namely:

ï¿½ away goals rule

ï¿½ extra time

ï¿½ kicks from the penalty mark

And the on page 50:

Away goals, extra time and kicks from the penalty mark are the three methods

approved for determining the winning team where competition rules require

there to be a winning team after a match has been drawn.

Away Goals

Competition rules may provide that where teams play each other home and away, if the aggregate score is equal after the second match, any goals scored at the ground of the opposing team will count double.

Extra Time

Competition rules may provide for two further equal periods, not exceeding 15 minutes each, to be played. The conditions of Law 8 will apply.

That's it. It's up to the competition organisers to decide. The Laws make no indication. Same as with using goal difference or head-to-head - the Laws are silent and leave it up to the competition to decide.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

timmymadden wrote:

Actually I've just read it again.."FIFA
Laws of the Game 2009/10 Edition ï¿½ Away Goalsï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½.if the aggregate
score is equal after the second match, any goals scored at the ground
of the opposing team will count double.""however
it is usually the case that the away goals rule does not apply to goals
scored during extra time as extra time is only played after the second
leg"Sounds like extra time is not counted as being part of the 2 legs, rather a smaller 3rd leg. Possibly a penis? (Sorry I had to throw that in).

Well all i can say is I'm glad you retracted it after throwing it in!

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Tegal wrote:

surprise surprise NZF dont even know

To be fair, there have been times when the ref hasn't known. Google the 1971/72 ECWC second round match between Rangers and Sporting Lisbon. Rangers lost the penalty shoot out and then complained because they should have been deemed winners on away goals already! So Rangers went through, despite losing the penalty shoot out... there's a good pub trivia question for you. Which club won a European trophy despite being knocked out on penalties in the second round?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

SiNZ wrote:

timmymadden wrote:

Email response from NZF

NZF wrote:

Hi Tim

In both UEFA and AFC competitions it is usually the case that the away goals rule does apply to goals scored during extra time.

Edit: CONCACAF don't usually apply away goals rule to extra time.

Point taken, however WCQ games are part of FIFA, rather than individual confederations. If it was up to the AFC, the OFC winner would probably not even get the luxury of a 2nd leg.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

OK....just got a reply from FIFA....it reads...

Thanks for your message.

Art. 17, par 9 of the Regulations for the 2010 FIFA World Cup reads as follows:

"In the knock-out format, both teams shall play one home and one away match each, the sequence of which will be determined by lots drawn by the FIFA Organising Committee. The team having scored most goals over the two games will qualify for the next round. If both teams score the same number of goals over the two matches, the goals scored away will be counted as double. If the same number of goals is scored away or both matches end without any goals being scored, extra time of two periods of 15 minutes each will be played. If the score is level after extra time, penalty kicks will be taken to determine the winner in accordance with the procedure described in the Laws of the Game."

Trust this information will be of use to you.

Best regards

Wolfgang

So.....even though it's not explicitly spelt out here, it seems obvious (by the absence of a sentence which says they DO count double), that away goals DO NOT count double in extra time.

liverpoolfan12009-10-12 19:52:59

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

timmymadden wrote:

SiNZ wrote:

timmymadden wrote:

Email response from NZF

NZF wrote:

Hi Tim

In both UEFA and AFC competitions it is usually the case that the away goals rule does apply to goals scored during extra time.

Edit: CONCACAF don't usually apply away goals rule to extra time.

Point taken, however WCQ games are part of FIFA, rather than individual confederations. If it was up to the AFC, the OFC winner would probably not even get the luxury of a 2nd leg.

Yeah, agree and that's the point of confusion. UEFA and AFC have one approach, whereas CONCACAF have another. I think CONMEBOL follow the CONCACAF approach. I don't know about CAF and OFC at all. FIFA are not explicit either way.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

If the score is level after extra time. Meaning 0-0 at full time and 1-1 at end of extra time means it's penalties. I wish somebody would just say one way or another and no more of this uncertain sounding crap. Maybe it's time to give Mr Blatter a phone call.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

this sh*t does not matter.

because we will win 2-0

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I guess we just have to boil it down to that phrase..."if the score is level after extra time, penalty kicks will be taken".

The only way the tie can go to extra-time is if it's 0-0 after 90 minutes.

From there, applying the phrase above means that 0-0, 1-1, 2-2 etc after extra-time means penalties.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

2-0 was going to be my pick at the TAB

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I agree Timmy, I wish FIFA or someone in authority would just say it. UEFA are good like that, when it was in they said so, when it was out they said so. I'd hoped LF1's email, coming from a media source, would get that clarity but FIFA just did what they did the last time I and some friends had a query over tournament regulations - copy and paste from the same document we'd quoted our question about!

I hope LF1 is right, but I'm not totally confident. It's going to be real nervous in the stands if we reach 90 minutes at 0-0!

As for who cares, I do! I need to have the exact rules down pat for when I release my spreadsheets and I still need to know. My UEFA WC sheet assumes the usual UEFA rules apply to the European playoffs and I hate it when my sheets contain an error and for 2014, I want to extend coverage of the qualification campaigns to all confederations!

SiNZ2009-10-12 20:26:03

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

SiNZ wrote:

I hope LF1 is right, but I'm not totally confident. It's going to be real nervous in the stands if we reach 90 minutes at 0-0!

I do, too! We need to know in our lead-up coverage and our on-the-night commentary exactly what the situation is.

liverpoolfan12009-10-12 20:37:13

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Indeed. What will White Noise do if it's locked at 1-1 after extra time? Celebrate or riot? Not that I condone a riot but it would be one hell of an emotional time if we're out after 310 minutes of football v Bahrain.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

timmymadden wrote:

Wait to see if there is a penalty shootout or not.

Allegedly

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I've just trawled through the qualification campaigns for 1990, 1994 and 2006 and can't find there every being any time where teams scored the same number of extra-time goals in a home/away KO tie. It was impossible for 1998 and 2002 because of the golden goal rule of course, so no point looking at them.

I reckon FIFA don't have a specific rule for this, not having needed it - unlike UEFA. Although, in the 2003/04 Champions League when UEFA got rid of away goals applying to extra-time goals there were none so the rule didn't do anything!

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