Personally from what I have seen of his coaching of our age group teams I am not a fan at all.
Every tournament we got to under him we play long ball, I recall watching the u20's where we tried stringing a few balls together and lost possession. The camera switched to Stu who was mouthing off, just bomb it forward in colourful language.
It seems to be the only way he lets our players play. If he doesn't have confidence in our players to allow them to play, he shouldn't be coaching them. It can't be good for the players knowing your coach doesn't have faith in you.
Qualifications don't necessarially make you a good coach. He's also under achieved with Wellington. Has a great squad and has done little with it.
The draw with China was lucky, we were completely dominated and thisfact shouldn't be hidden behind the result. Play the game 10 times over in the same way, I garuntee you we would loose each and every one of them
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Personally from what I have seen of his coaching of our age group teams I am not a fan at all.
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Qualifications don't necessarially make you a good coach. He's also under achieved with Wellington. Has a great squad and has done little with it.
Qualifications don't necessarially make you a good coach. He's also under achieved with Wellington. Has a great squad and has done little with it.
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While I have been critical of the age group game strategies, I will come to the defence of Stu and say that I too have seen enough of how he coaches at club and TW level and he coaches the short passing game and is very effective at it.
Perhaps the long ball game is a NZ Soccer directive cos I have seen it with the U17s last year where they played a certain way right up until their World Cup e.g from the playing format (from 4-4-2 to 4,4,1,1), to players playing out of their natural positions.
Too many of our national teams do play the same way so one can only assume it is a national policy - why else would they do it?
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I think the long ball is just a reality of the fact that we're not good enough individually on the international stage. That's a generalisation I know.
Stu has been great for Team Wellington and I've seen him work a lot with this age group and he certainly isn't a fan of the long ball larry.
That's just life when you're on the back foot.
Stu has been great for Team Wellington and I've seen him work a lot with this age group and he certainly isn't a fan of the long ball larry.
That's just life when you're on the back foot.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
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Once again Touch Me, on your personal crusade against Stu Jacobs, you get your facts wrong. How could anyone in their right minds say he under achieved with Team Wellington? He has had one season and turned them from underachievers in the Mic Waitt era and took them to the grand final.
The fact of the matter is we will always struggle when we have a bunch of semi pros running round against professional players. We play how we are allowed to play when faced with opponents who are stronger, faster and more technically proficient.
Normo's coming home
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Personally from what I have seen of his coaching of our age group teams I am not a fan at all.
Every tournament we got to under him we play long ball, I recall watching the u20's where we tried stringing a few balls together and lost possession. The camera switched to Stu who was mouthing off, just bomb it forward in colourful language.
It seems to be the only way he lets our players play. If he doesn't have confidence in our players to allow them to play, he shouldn't be coaching them. It can't be good for the players knowing your coach doesn't have faith in you.
Qualifications don't necessarially make you a good coach. He's also under achieved with Wellington. Has a great squad and has done little with it.
The draw with China was lucky, we were completely dominated and thisfact shouldn't be hidden behind the result. Play the game 10 times over in the same way, I garuntee you we would loose each and every one of them
Opinions
No (please note this has been heavily edited by the most precious of the moderators)
Marius Lacatus2008-08-14 21:57:14All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight
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I think the long ball is just a reality of the fact that we're not good enough individually on the international stage. That's a generalisation I know.
that isn't a generalisation at all - that is a fact. How many players of ours do you really think would make the china or Belgium teams, let alone the Brazil team?
I'll give you a clue - the answer is around the 0 mark.
All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight
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Personally from what I have seen of his coaching of our age group teams I am not a fan at all.
Every tournament we got to under him we play long ball, I recall watching the u20's where we tried stringing a few balls together and lost possession. The camera switched to Stu who was mouthing off, just bomb it forward in colourful language.
It seems to be the only way he lets our players play. If he doesn't have confidence in our players to allow them to play, he shouldn't be coaching them. It can't be good for the players knowing your coach doesn't have faith in you.
Qualifications don't necessarially make you a good coach. He's also under achieved with Wellington. Has a great squad and has done little with it.
The draw with China was lucky, we were completely dominated and thisfact shouldn't be hidden behind the result. Play the game 10 times over in the same way, I garuntee you we would loose each and every one of them
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No
(once again, couldnt let that stand im afraid FM)
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Oh how I wish I knew what Frankie Posted.
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I just said that (snip - I will edit it myself to save Marius the time)
All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight
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So because we lack the ball players of other nations we shouldn't attempt to atleast try to play football.
Surely the All Whites would be in the same mold then, yet under Ricki we try to actually play football.
Sorry about Stu and Welly i thought he'd had them for the past two seasons, that was an error on my behalf, but i have no personal crusade against Stu. Too many decent players in this country are overlooked becasue they are not big enough, technically far superior and quicker, but not big enough.
Its a stupid mentallity which will see NZ reamain a nothing entity in world football. And to see this long ball approach used by our most senior coaches in our most senior teams pisses me off because it is not the way forward and never will be. I don't rate him as a coach because he doesn't have faith in his players.
If he did, then he'd play a passing game with them like he does with his TW team, and what international scout would be interested in 11 nz players if all he thinks we can do is kick a ball a long way???
Stu + Age Group teams = sh*t football
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anyone + our age group teams = sh*t football.
Any team in the world that is far outclassed will resort to long ball. My capital 3 side,plays the short passing game beautifully,but i be if we played team wellington,we would be outclassed and end up resorting to long ball. Its jst fact. Our underage sides are amatuers playing up against proffesional players...I dont see how you could expect any more than the 2 1-0 losses with 10 men,and a predictable 5-0 vs Brazil that they delivered...get real
Allegedly
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I dont see how you could expect any more than the 2 1-0 losses with 10 men...
China 1 New Zealand 1
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horses for courses.
team welly play good football simply because, at the level they are playing at, they can compete by using this method.
the oly whites have to go direct to even have a hope of competing at olympic level.
unfortunately, because we were so inferior to our opposition and we had to defend so deep, we stood little chance with either approach.
reg222008-08-15 17:03:26
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I dont see how you could expect any more than the 2 1-0 losses with 10 men...
China 1 New Zealand 1
hehe my bad,was in rant mode. Even better though!
Allegedly
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horses for courses.
team welly play good football simply because, at the level they are playing at, they can compete by using this method.
the oly whites have to go direct to even have a hope of competing at olympic level.
unfortunately, because we were so inferior to our opposition and we had to defend so deep, we stood little chance with either approach.
Ahh, some sense at last!
I don't imagine TW wuld be very effective playing their "short game" against any Olympic team. So therein lieth a lesson. Weaker teams generally have to resort to long-ball defnesive + counter attacking style of play against more skillfull outfits.
NZ deosn't command a pool of enough kids playing football to produce a large number of skilled players. Yes, we will produce the odd one or two, but naitons with big populations or urban (and often poor) people tend to produce more footballers of great skill. It's a function of the environment. Should football become the dominant past time of young kiwi kids (and I mena more than just kids enrolling in Satruday football club games - I'm talking street immersion), then I would expect that in 20 years we'd see a crop of skilled talent coming through.
As it stands, we really have to play the best (perhaps the least of the evils) tactic that is availble to less skilled teams.
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What crap, The Ferns didnt play the longball game but had the same fate as the olywhites.
But this longball excuse because a team is better is crud -to maney snagg eaters here. Cant recall Auckland playing like that in the WCC (oops text =WorldClubCup).
convict2008-08-16 03:19:14
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What Ferns games were you watching!!!!!!!!? That is exactly what they did in the first 2 matches - aimless hoofs up the field to no one in paricular. Painful to watch. At least in the USA match they passed to players a bit more (and ironically got stuffed! Maybe that proves something.) zizoustainrod2008-08-16 11:44:40
We Still Love You Colin We Do!
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The fact of the matter is we will always struggle when we have a bunch of semi pros running round against professional players. We play how we are allowed to play when faced with opponents who are stronger, faster and more technically proficient.
I agree with you James Dean. I think Stu Jacobs agrees with you also - he's pretty much stated on page C7 of yesterday's Dom Post that we're simply not good enough? I think credit is due to him for publicly acknowledging that. It appears from the interview with him that he's struggling for a solution but realises that it isn't a quick fix and that a solution needs to start with the development of football in the younger-age groups. He suggests that a think-tank is needed to consider the problem. (See also my post titled "Building on the Phoenix Momentum".)
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What crap, The Ferns didnt play the longball game but had the same fate as the olywhites.
But this longball excuse because a team is better is crud -to maney snagg eaters here. Cant recall Auckland playing like that in the WCC (oops text =WorldClubCup).
good point about auckland.
however, waitak only started looking dangerous last year when they started lumping it.
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The reason we play the way we do is because the coach plays to the teams strenght. If you can' get more than three passes together,knock it into space.
It is no good playing tip tap football if you can't keep possession.
You can't play South American football if the players have not got the techinical ability.
It is no good playing tip tap football if you can't keep possession.
You can't play South American football if the players have not got the techinical ability.
If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid
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Interesting that we (arguably) left behind a number of good technicians (Eager, Roddy Brown) but took others more noted for their athleticism (Messam).
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
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Roddy never had a good run of fitness leading up to the tournament according to his bro
Normo's coming home
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Interesting that we (arguably) left behind a number of good technicians (Eager, Roddy Brown) but took others more noted for their athleticism (Messam).
There were big wraps on Eager (in the Welly area) - whatever happened? Technically he was very good at getting a decent pass away......another kid who I thought was very good in the midfield was Hamish Chang as well...
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Eager will stroll in to the U-20 side to be named in the next few months I imagine.
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I personally do not know Stu Jacobs so I cannot comment on his philosophy of how he likes to see the game played but I am going to comment on a piece in the Dom Post by Tony Smith after the Olympics.
In the article Stu says " NZ footballers are not technically good enough (He is 200% correct there!) and more international programmes for age-group teams are needed to bridge the gap with the rest of the world".
So what does the headline read, "Jacobs calls for more top level games".
"NZ footballers are not technically good enough", that should have been the headline. He later commented," technically, we just fall short of other countries. How we can bridge this gap is something for NZF to put together".
I am not going to knock the current players as it is not their fault. They can only be coached and taught from the best NZ has available. So really the blame is not with them.
Lets look at the Brasilians/Sth Americans, a perfect example don't you think? Everyone marvelled at the Brasilian technic and skill and Argentina winning gold. Yet I have not heard anyone actually question or ask just what is it that makes those guys so good? What is it that they do that we do not?
What can NZF do to technically improve our players here? Do some research, ask questions, investigate! Stu Jacobs is correct. He suggests NZF calls on a think-tank but he only mentions from "people who have been to these type of events". So the failed ones could have the answers but will they learn from them? He was sitting there watching Brasil. Why did he not ask them directly? Maybe he did!
I saw both warm-up games vs Chile (average age 18) and even in terrible conditions the difference in technique was evident. The "long ball game" will win maybe 1 in 10 on a good day but who wants to watch that? If that is the football you particulary like then so be it. We all have our own opinion.
I hope for Stu and the future coaches/players that an alternative way at looking at things is adopted otherwise we shall just have to get used to the "long ball game" for a lot longer. Mind you how long has football been played in NZ - over 100 years. It is going to take something special to turn that mentality around!
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What crap, The Ferns didnt play the longball game but had the same fate as the olywhites.
But this longball excuse because a team is better is crud -to maney snagg eaters here. Cant recall Auckland playing like that in the WCC (oops text =WorldClubCup).
What games where you watching? Alan Jones loves to play the long ball and thats what he did at the CWC
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good points, but youd say the same for the english , havent won anything in years and they run huge academies, technically they are inferior to european teams and havent cut it at either age group tournaments or the national team euro or WC, they have looked to the french set up at clarefontaine, the brazilians and argentiians grow up in football, just like in rugby the world looks at what /how all blacks /nz age groups train we should consider the set up in france, more experise in the coaches/set up, french coaches rathr than the english , and get the emphasis on technique and skills, rather than competitive games , 
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I admire Stu for being honest enough to say that we are not technically good enough...becuase this is where Australia have turned their football around and now are technically good enough.
Did you watch the Aus Olympic side ?
Have you seen the A-League ?
Agree with much of what you said but to hold Australia up as a paragon of technical ability is pushing it Yugo.
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I admire Stu for being honest enough to say that we are not technically good enough...becuase this is where Australia have turned their football around and now are technically good enough.
Did you watch the Aus Olympic side ?
Have you seen the A-League ?
Agree with much of what you said but to hold Australia up as a paragon of technical ability is pushing it Yugo.
in fact, i reckon australia has gone backwards technically with the 'de-ethnicisation' of the sport over there.
they used to produce outstanding technicians like crino and odzakov; players who could tear you to bits on a whim. their current bunch are workmanlike at best.
i agree with everything else you've said yugo. let's hope that one day new zealand can produce it's very own hadzibejic!
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Brilliantly said CCFWGTN and I share your frustration! You're dead right that "It is going to take something special to turn that mentality around!" and to look at alternative ways of developing NZ football. Stu Jacobs can see it and I'm sure that Ricki can also. The question is whether NZF can see it and have the courage and vision to put in action the long-term strategy needed to move us on to another level. Otherwise, we will at best just keep recyclying the same dead end plans and keep treading water, but most likely go backwards. In fact, NZ football (both domestically and at the national level) has in my opinion declined significantly in standard since the 70s and 80s when it was propped up by a largely British ex pat contingent. For some useful debate elsewhere on the points you make, see the posting titled "Building on the Phoenix Momentum" located on the second page of this forum.
Yugoboss, your points are also good ones. I agree with you Hard News that we shouldn't hold up Australia as a paragon of technical ability, but they are well ahead of NZ players technically and light years ahead of us in terms of developing football, and sport more generally. They realise the secret is in developing youth in all sports, hence, for example, the Australian Institute of Sport. As for football, Australia is now a significant exporter of talent to Europe and Asia. And they are willing to learn from top nations - as I think AllWhitebelvr recently pointed out, they have imported the Dutch coaching system.
brunonz, I wonder if the problem with the English at the international level, at least to a significant extent, is due to English players being kept out of the top echelon of the domestic game by the massive number of foreign players allowed to play in the EPL? It makes for a very strong, exciting and marketable domestic league, but perhaps at a huge cost to the national side.
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brunonz, I wonder if the problem with the English at the international level, at least to a significant extent, is due to English players being kept out of the top echelon of the domestic game by the massive number of foreign players allowed to play in the EPL? It makes for a very strong, exciting and marketable domestic league, but perhaps at a huge cost to the national side.
if they're not good enough to play in the top league currently, wouldn't flooding the league with these guys just bring the standard of the league down? in turn the other leagues would get stronger gaining the foreign cast offs from england. in turn english teams would get spanked in europe club comps. this would improve the english players in what way?
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brunonz, I wonder if the problem with the English at the international level, at least to a significant extent, is due to English players being kept out of the top echelon of the domestic game by the massive number of foreign players allowed to play in the EPL? It makes for a very strong, exciting and marketable domestic league, but perhaps at a huge cost to the national side.
if they're not good enough to play in the top league currently, wouldn't flooding the league with these guys just bring the standard of the league down? in turn the other leagues would get stronger gaining the foreign cast offs from england. in turn english teams would get spanked in europe club comps. this would improve the english players in what way?
You're right - it would bring down the standard and reduce the marketability (and assoiated commercialism) of the EPL given that the EPL attracts many of the best players from all around the world. And the English teams likely would not do as good in Europe as they do now (although I do remember the days when English clubs were consistently strong in Europe before foreign players were allowed to play in the English domestic competition). But it does seem to me that if more English players were able to play in the higher standard competition of the EPL (and in European club competitions) by limiting the number of eligible foreign players, the England national side might be stonger.
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That is the reason why we are inferior to everyone at International level.
I won't comment on the discussion about playing styles however I wish this attitude would change. All you ever hear is how we are up against it at international level. We need to adjust our sights and then play with a positive mentality vs. sides that are at a similar level to us, e.g. Bahrain, Oman, North Korea etc etc when we get into the AFC. I was most disappointed that we painted ourselves as underdogs vs China. We have as many players in Europe as they do and with the pressure they were under playing at home I was expecting to steal a result.
This underdog mentality bugs me and wouldn't wash in Australia, it shouldn't in NZ either.
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That is the reason why we are inferior to everyone at International level.
I won't comment on the discussion about playing styles however I wish this attitude would change. All you ever hear is how we are up against it at international level. We need to adjust our sights and then play with a positive mentality vs. sides that are at a similar level to us, e.g. Bahrain, Oman, North Korea etc etc when we get into the AFC. I was most disappointed that we painted ourselves as underdogs vs China. We have as many players in Europe as they do and with the pressure they were under playing at home I was expecting to steal a result.
This underdog mentality bugs me and wouldn't wash in Australia, it shouldn't in NZ either.
I think Yugoboss made a fair point about us being inferior because of our low technical ability. And it's a point that Stu Jacobs has emphasised, based on his reported comments in the newspaper. It's not about having an underdog mentality but about being realistic. The trick is figuring out what to do about the reality and having the inclination to change it.
Regarding your point "We have as many players in Europe as they do", that simply means, if correct, China, like us, hardly has any players in Europe (including Britain).
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This topic continues in the Regional Football section under "NZ footballers are not technically good enough". Well worth a look for some more valid points.
All the correspondence has been excellent and valid. I am glad this topic is getting so much attention. It obviously is a concern to you all.
I totally agree with Daggers (Regional Football) - futsal certainly is one way to improve technique but it needs to be coached properly and how many qualified futsal coaches are there in NZ?
For the record and that we are all talking about the same game: futebol de salao/futebol sala (Portuguese/Spanish) began in Sth America (Uruguay) in 1930. It was not until the mid80s that FIFA got heavily involved to promote the game worldwide hence the change of name to Futsal.
All the great Sth American players past and present credit futsal in developing their technique so to dismiss the game as a "FIFA gimmick" is quite foolhardy.
Futsal is definitely something for NZF to consider more seriously than they have in the past.
The English FA has recently held meetings to address youth development and Simon Clifford was asked to comment. For those not familiar with his name. He basically runs his own independent "futebol de salao" schools and quite successfully. Google his name for more info.
axmfc - you are totally correct, "Stu Jacobs can see it and I'm sure that Ricki can also. The question is whether NZF can see it and have the courage and vision to put in action the long-term strategy needed to move us on to another level".
Courage, vision plus PASSION! Without the passion and drive forget it otherwise in 100 years time we'll still be asking the same question.
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ccfwgtn, thanks for the notice about the other site - wasn't aware.
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I've moved most of the general NZ isn't technical enough stuff to the regional football thread. Carry on the discussion here and we'll leave this thread for Stu specific stuff.
Normo's coming home
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Interesting that we (arguably) left behind a number of good technicians (Eager, Roddy Brown) but took others more noted for their athleticism (Messam).
There were big wraps on Eager (in the Welly area) - whatever happened? Technically he was very good at getting a decent pass away......another kid who I thought was very good in the midfield was Hamish Chang as well...
I believe that having a running style similar to Forest Gump (but without the pace) was seen as a hinderence.
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That is the reason why we are inferior to everyone at International level.
I won't comment on the discussion about playing styles however I wish this attitude would change. All you ever hear is how we are up against it at international level. We need to adjust our sights and then play with a positive mentality vs. sides that are at a similar level to us, e.g. Bahrain, Oman, North Korea etc etc when we get into the AFC. I was most disappointed that we painted ourselves as underdogs vs China. We have as many players in Europe as they do and with the pressure they were under playing at home I was expecting to steal a result.
This underdog mentality bugs me and wouldn't wash in Australia, it shouldn't in NZ either.
i agree.
we used to be able to compete aginst anyone; any team who was up against us would encounter a physically strong, well organised outfit. we had the confidence to get results against good sides like saudi, bremen, etc and run teams like england close.
technique definitely needs to be improved, but we don't even compete mentally and physically any more
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