National League review and future

I thought a NZF release mentioned at least Wairarapa and Nelson were given youth league places to prove they could develop the back office/ infrastructure to support an ASB senior team. Transport to Masterton was always a worry for 1 day in and out for away teams. Not sure on Nelson flights for 1 day but must have worked.  Never heard any reference to AUFC.  Was Thier any?

"On the face of it, their bid was not good enough and that was their chance, which they legitimately got. The end."

As you were at pains to tell me, I illustrated opinion as to why they missed out. Funny how in amongst that opinion was a decent chunk of fact too which I listed.

Whom in your opinion should have missed out to Auckland United if its not fair?

If they are undeveloped then they can go play in the youth league and be developed. Better yet, try get into the top regional level. Thats the level you develop them at, not at national competition level. If we again take your opinion as fact, then they should roar up the northern league tables right? To suggest that a team of undeveloped players should be developed at national level and skip a regional level step is just a massive 'what the fudge' statement right there. Thats not aspirational, thats loopy. Those that have the talent to do that, will have been found already and wont be in the catchment area. There will be those that throw up the Weenix argument but thats a completely different case.

When you read the noises coming from Auckland United, Hoane Edwards was to be coach and Hone Fowler captain. Thats not me making that up. By marquee I meant best player but Hone Fowler? If thats the best thats in the area...

Again, can you produce something from NZF that says NYL participation would be the basis of consideration for the next level. Can you? You have to back that statement up otherwise its you whom is running on opinion here. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a bid being aspirational. While we are at it, lets chuck in a team from Taupo. Undeveloped, geographic region not represented. Can you see how I arrived at that location based on nothing at all. Thats the same as the Auckland United concept. Its an opinion that because its not represented anywhere, then there has to be something there. Its nothing more than a concept with a merry-go- round of volunteers and a 'vast player base of undeveloped talent' thats done nothing at regional level. We could throw in Team Taranaki while we are at it as well. It akin to throwing darts at a target and hoping you hit the right one. There is no basis to it. Bruce will tell you about Waikato/WaiBOP and the stuff they have been through and they arguably have a larger player base that have more talent and have performed at regional level. Southern too live on a showstring budget and how are their performances? Why lower the standard of the competition to incorporate and aspirational bid when we should be raising the bar to be involved.

I think you run an awesome website and I sincerely enjoy reading your stuff but in this case, I think you have bought into the sob story too much to see what it really is - a 'not good enough' bid regardless what measurement you use.

Hello there.

The underlying issue here is that missing out on the ASB Premiership now means missing out on the youth league as well.

To me that's the single biggest mistake/weakness of the revamp.

Why? Why?

It gives no further scope to see if anything can blossom in, say, South Auckland at this level.

I can't think of a reason why a national youth league MUST mirror a senior league. There are whole different dynamics and objectives at play.

Look for structures that serve, rather than bind.

This is the problem with the review panel - not the decisions they made but the terms of reference they worked under.

If they had stopped at the youth league tie-up and said: "hey, this is mince," that would have been better. But then maybe a member did, and we just don't know.

The youth league is an uncomplicated short-run competition. Please let's have youth league teams in places like Masterton, New Plymouth, Tauranga, Whangarei, Porirua etc... Let's go back to the days of the National Youth Cup in the 1980s if you like.

My advice to Auckland United would be to try and keep going.

Get together with Wairarapa and others and run an early summer series of unoffocial "friendlies" among interested parties.

Yes, it may be harder to get funding for unsanctioned stuff - but only until the merit and worth of the exercise was publicised and the national structure publicly shamed a wee bit.

I admire Hone Fowler for what he is trying to do. This is rolling your sleeves up with real community leadership. You don't see that from a lot of active players.

Good on Noel Robinson too. It would have been very easy for him to retire from football and play golf instead of trying to put somethign back in in a low-decile neighbourhood.

In fact good on everybody who is having a crack and trying to make a difference to football in their community. That's what we need more of.

Your exact words in a comment above "I don't think its harsh at all and actually am a bit surprised they even thought they had a shot."

I'm not sure there's much point in me trying to discuss this further here. I think I'll leave it there.

I think your point is well made Enzo, the discussion certainly didn't warrant the depth of vitriol it received.

Everyone has a shot. I could have legitimately entered a franchise but whether I actually I had a shot of getting a spot is a different story. They legitimately had their shot. I just don't think it was a very good shot.

The Youth league in its current format had no real purpose as far as I can see. For me, this is the vehicle that should be used to unearth talent that has not been found. Ifill mentioned in an article that a kid from his Nelson academy is to be signed by the Phoenix - would he have been found if there was no Youth league team in that area? Who knows.

How you structure a youth league competition is tricky because if you take the position that it should be used as a development vehicle and cover all areas of the country, you could have something quite massive and then unsustainable. Do you go to 4 regionalised leagues? Cut each island into 2, have 8-10 teams in each and play 1 or 2 rounds. Then the winners of each go to a top 4. Its a rehash of the old Super League but that format would allow for more teams in the areas that Enzo advocates to be have a chance at developing the talent that is potentially hidden of not found through these FTCs/NTCs or what ever format they use now. I think you could reasonably find 8 teams in each area and since these kids don't get paid like the seniors do, the cost structure would be different. You have no air travel and I think the costs come down to something that could be managed. 

I think this should be the angle for the NYL because if there are 17 yo kids that are too good for that level, chances are high they are going to wind up at the WeeNix playing ASBP or with another ASBP club in their area. Thats when you get back into the argument around training with a higher squad and not playing vs playing at a lower level which has been done to death many a time. You also get in danger of having quite a lot of games over a period of time when football is not a focus (look at ASBP crowds) and if no one is watching, how do these kids get discovered? 

It just shows that there is no simple answer.

I think we'd be hard pressed to find anything that could be called "evidence" in your posts either. Debating opinions is totally fine but no need to act like a cod about it.

Slightly off topic and I know it's tongue in cheek but do we all agree with the thread title about the ASB Premiership not having a future, or are we positive about these changes going forward?

About this I was wondering about the future of Southern United. I know the area they cover should always have a place in the national league but for how long can you forget about the on field performances? They've been occuping the last places for several seasons and in many they didn't finish in bottom because of YoungHeart Manawatu, who were even worse, or the Wanderers, a bunch of U-20s.

I'm not saying they should be kicked out but I do wonder if they are heading into the right direction. YoungHeart was kicked out because of the poor on field performances and in a season or two Southern could be in the same position (finish bottom in 3 straight seasons) Manawatu was in 2013.

I'm just curious if anyone else here has been wondering the same thing.

I think in Southern favour is that they are still financial from what I understand. That was not necessarily always the case with YHM

Putting aside Auckland United completely and not knowing anything about the merits or weaknesses of these bids, I can't see how St Helliers/Kohi could match the North Shore on any sort of metric

I would imagine Auckland deserves another side but out east? Why?

$$$

Guys- some of the comments on here about Eastern Suburbs only getting in because of the dollar are misguided and pretty disrespectful. (And that's putting it nicely).

AP you sound like Gallop with his "metrics". 

Suburbs has history, numerous Chatham Cup wins (incl last year), a truly large and integrated club by NZ standards with over 2000 players with a strong emphasis on youth and women. Look the their website and the coaching they have for youth teams. And yes, because they are well administered they are financially stable. When I say integrated they have such a large junior base that they have a natural fan base. 

Thus if you look at the criteria (on field performance, governance, youth and women's teams etc) it was no surprise. 

But yes- given the shoe string budget clubs run in Eastern Suburbs present a low risk option for NZF. You can't have a team gold after one season....

If you want to talk the dollar then someone with a brain at NZF should be talking to Chris Ruffle at Eastern Suburbs about leveraging their membership base as bound to be some influentials in there that can help. To be fair though Suburbs do not do that well. 

My kids play at Fencibles and there is no engagement of the membership base. Sure they have Facebook and websites but they don't think commercially like how they can facilitate the linking of local business to their target market- the membership base and not just through push marketing. 

Anyway- that's another topic...

I guess though, that as I said before, catchment area is only relevant if you are recruiting only from that area.

I'm still struggling to understand what the ASBP is supposed to be. What's the point of it exactly?

A pathway to somewhere? Is it really supposed to produce better outcomes for the National Mens side? Wouldn't/Shouldn't the players in that side be playing in professional league?

I can accept that NZ Football will be measured on the success of the national teams; What i can not reconcile is how the ASBP will deliver better outcomes for the national team.

Wouldn't investment a more robust youth development policy with the goal of placing/moving those players offshore as soon as possible be a better vehicle for delivering a better national team?

Hi Zonk,

Player development and a supply line of talent for the All Whites has never been the SOLE objective of the national league.

It is also predicated upon a desire to have a flagship domestic competition relevant to the communities we live in, something that can promote the code at domestic level, to prime the pump for development of facilities, to allow the best players to play the best players, to allow our referees to develop, to provide a representative capable of being competitive at the World Club Champs etc. 

The recent league review touched on about 13 specific objectives.

The game is always about more than developing the national team. 

If I had the time I could go into more detail, but hopefully this helps.

You Quote -allow our referees to develop. You having a laugh here right? It's getting worse by the week not better.

Just getting the D.H. of an lino [call them what you like] at the SU v Canterbury game to understand the mechanics of players actions would be a good start.  This highlight or lowlight for the lino was not in the review show. Sky having a problem with showing bad reffing eh. 

Another point  is If Sky TV got rid of the clowns fronting the highlight show and gave us the decent highlights package from each game it would be a much improved 25 mins of watching.

I have been really enjoying the highlights show, there is always a challenge in what to show in the short highlights and stuff will always get missed but I think that is getting better every week and the presenters are adding some personality to the asbp something that it desperately needs.

translation = winge

They're from your neck of the woods Scottie? the bird goes alright but the other guy is an idiot

Scottie,

No I'm not having a laugh. Anyone who knows me will know I have absolutely no sense of humour.

Referee performances will vary in much the same manner that player performances will. That's all part of the subjective factor in sport. 

But it hardly changes the overall objective, based on the premise that having an elite domestic league will assist development opportunities for referees to familiarise themselves with what is generally accepted as being a higher standard than the winter leagues.

And it would be too silly for words - or even for a forum - to take one or two anecdotal incidents and write a cause and effect relationship into it, don't you think?

To have, or state an objective is not synonymous with achieving an objective in any given season.

Dunno why, but I have a teeny weeny suspicion you're not really into grappling with big-picture stuff, but hope this helps.

.

How are the bolded words at all relevant to your statement? I'm used to people jumping down my throat on the grounds that "if you point out racism YOU are the racist", but you seem to have gotten away with that one.

Disclosure: I'm mates with Hone Fowler's dad.

Hey Doloras, I used to know Roger in a previous life. Top bloke, man of the people.

Q: what's the majority ethnicity of people living in China?

A: what ever answer you give, you are racist.

Okay, meaningless abuse. So let me make it clear. What has the players' ethnicity got to do with 'skill levels or wherewithal'?

I'm disappointed not to get an answer. But no-one who supports a team whose star is Roy Krishna should go starting aspersions on players of Indian or Indo-Fijian heritage.

Interesting piece on TV3 news at 6pm about the new ASB Premiership, heavily focused on Eastern Suburbs. 

              Wrong thread.         For me that is - will put it in ASB 2016.                          

interesting - i think i would have Mark Jones start on the wing ahead of Andre, as Andre isn't that pacey, but i would also have Andre in there ahead of Mata, but playing behind Watson. 

I also don't think Robertson has been all that great this season, but have been impressed by Adam Mitchell at WaiBop.

I'm also not sure about Butler, if i was to bring him out i think i would go for someone like James McGarry, that kid is impressive.

Also got to have Wade Maloney in on his form in the first half of the season - so him in for Joel Steven's who has also been good.

Be interesting to see others point of views

Yes - after reviewing the weekly highlight packages - I would swap Joel Stevens to the left ahead of De Jong and put Mark Jones in on the right wing.

Bowen would probably get the nod ahead of Mata, and Khia Jones in ahead of Dimardo at Left back - still good subs to come on.

I think Auckland City would still win - but it would be a high scoring match.

Round 8 Movement.

Cole Peverley in for Jake Butler

Robertson has stepped up in Musa's overseas absence - more go forward.

Ben Harris in for Mata who is young and off the boil (dropped to Reserves) - Bowen as the impact/bench forward.

Steven Hoyle into the mix with his hot run of goals.

Mark Jones still playing well, Maloney quiet and on bench for WaiBop.

WaiBop are making an interesting run at the play off spots - semi finals.

Round 12 movement.

McGarry into the mix. Harris still doing well. Can anyone stop de vries? Taye still my son at HB. Ifill adding another footballing chapter to his life hopefully the next one includes Tasman assistant coach? The combo of pirate Clapham and the organised and working version of De Jong is paying dividends. I now think the ASB all stars could beat City on a good day. Hopefully TW have got the O league spot but who knows?

The ASB teams are playing this season for the 2 x 2017 O-League spots.

I remember Andy Martin saying in the interview that the ASB Premiership teams will be eligible for the Chatham Cup, and that they just need to work out the details. I'm not sure if that means this year? I think there's a clip online. 

It will be really intriguing to compare some of the winter clubs with the premiership clubs. There could be some upsets. 

there could also be a lot of player crossover. 

They are transitioning the ASB premiership to a format that runs from July to March (starting in 2018?) so I guess that in the future players will just have to choose one or the other. Maybe they should wait to start the cup expansion until then. 

To fill July to March they'll need another 10 teams as well.