you're wasting your time throwing fact and logic at him JD
New Zealand Football Championship salaries
you're wasting your time throwing fact and logic at him JD
I realise that but it's a very slow news day here in the UK and we're on summer slow down in the UK...plus I'm off the booze for the month so I can't even look forward to a lunchtime pint with Frankie Mac
Bluemagic
You make a statement with absolutely no foundation as to its accuracy - The same applied to WU when Rex Dawkins ran it. CU and HBU are in this ball park too.
I can assure you that HBU are nowhere near to several of the other franchises when it comes to money. Hawkes Bay is not a wealthy area, much of the sponsorship money goes to rugby which is the number 1 sport in the area. HBU struggles to make ends meet so please, don't live in awe of the financial wealth of the HBU franchise.
WU in its heyday under Rex Dawkins was competitive with ACFC on and off the field, as results proved, so I don't get the "absolutely no foundation" accusation. I don't know the financial figures for HBU and I'm sorry to hear they struggle to make ends meet because they're a decent team. If it's true they're really struggling then as I say NZF have it within their reach to help them financially as I've explained.
I think ACFC does it's bit to help the other franchises by winning the O League and plowing about 40% of that prize money back into the ASBP. It is bloody expensive putting together a quality team that can win the O League and be competitive in the CWC each season so it would be counterproductive to take further money out of ACFC to subsidize other franchises because if we lose the O League prize money the whole house of cards would come down.
It's NZF that needs to pull its finger out (have I mentioned this before).
Hold on - let's get real for a second. Auckland gets additional gaming trust money to cover the costs of competing at the CWC and the O-League and have 50% of the CWC money to spend putting together a team. It's all in their accounts, there is no additional source of funds there, there's no sponsor or individual helping out, no-one is putting their own money in. This myth you've developed that the kind hearted souls spend a load of money on players, saving the league in the process and doing everyone else a favour is just laughable.
Oh, take ACFC and the O League prize money out of the equation and the ASBP will happily carry on will it? Try and keep a grip on reality JD. It costs ACFC money to compete in the O league and CWC to the level it does and yes individuals have dipped into their own pockets. In the end it's a well run ship which can balance the books because it wins on the field. Take out the O league prize money for one or two seasons and the ASBP will be on its knees in no time, so yes ACFC does contribute overall actually.
you're wasting your time throwing fact and logic at him JD
I know, he keeps bringing up facts that are actually true JD. How annoying.
Bluemagic
You make a statement with absolutely no foundation as to its accuracy - The same applied to WU when Rex Dawkins ran it. CU and HBU are in this ball park too.
I can assure you that HBU are nowhere near to several of the other franchises when it comes to money. Hawkes Bay is not a wealthy area, much of the sponsorship money goes to rugby which is the number 1 sport in the area. HBU struggles to make ends meet so please, don't live in awe of the financial wealth of the HBU franchise.
WU in its heyday under Rex Dawkins was competitive with ACFC on and off the field, as results proved, so I don't get the "absolutely no foundation" accusation. I don't know the financial figures for HBU and I'm sorry to hear they struggle to make ends meet because they're a decent team. If it's true they're really struggling then as I say NZF have it within their reach to help them financially as I've explained.
I think ACFC does it's bit to help the other franchises by winning the O League and plowing about 40% of that prize money back into the ASBP. It is bloody expensive putting together a quality team that can win the O League and be competitive in the CWC each season so it would be counterproductive to take further money out of ACFC to subsidize other franchises because if we lose the O League prize money the whole house of cards would come down.
It's NZF that needs to pull its finger out (have I mentioned this before).
Hold on - let's get real for a second. Auckland gets additional gaming trust money to cover the costs of competing at the CWC and the O-League and have 50% of the CWC money to spend putting together a team. It's all in their accounts, there is no additional source of funds there, there's no sponsor or individual helping out, no-one is putting their own money in. This myth you've developed that the kind hearted souls spend a load of money on players, saving the league in the process and doing everyone else a favour is just laughable.
Oh, take ACFC and the O League prize money out of the equation and the ASBP will happily carry on will it? Try and keep a grip on reality JD. It costs ACFC money to compete in the O league and CWC to the level it does and yes individuals have dipped into their own pockets. In the end it's a well run ship which can balance the books because it wins on the field. Take out the O league prize money for one or two seasons and the ASBP will be on its knees in no time.
I agree, we should all be quick to acknowledge the generosity of the gamblers of Auckland Central, without whom none of this would be possible
Look I think Ivan Vicelich has been an amazing servant of NZ Football and to have him playing in the ASB Premiership is a huge coup for the league. So if he was on $70,000 a year then it's warranted.
Bluemagic
You make a statement with absolutely no foundation as to its accuracy - The same applied to WU when Rex Dawkins ran it. CU and HBU are in this ball park too.
I can assure you that HBU are nowhere near to several of the other franchises when it comes to money. Hawkes Bay is not a wealthy area, much of the sponsorship money goes to rugby which is the number 1 sport in the area. HBU struggles to make ends meet so please, don't live in awe of the financial wealth of the HBU franchise.
WU in its heyday under Rex Dawkins was competitive with ACFC on and off the field, as results proved, so I don't get the "absolutely no foundation" accusation. I don't know the financial figures for HBU and I'm sorry to hear they struggle to make ends meet because they're a decent team. If it's true they're really struggling then as I say NZF have it within their reach to help them financially as I've explained.
I think ACFC does it's bit to help the other franchises by winning the O League and plowing about 40% of that prize money back into the ASBP. It is bloody expensive putting together a quality team that can win the O League and be competitive in the CWC each season so it would be counterproductive to take further money out of ACFC to subsidize other franchises because if we lose the O League prize money the whole house of cards would come down.
It's NZF that needs to pull its finger out (have I mentioned this before).
Hold on - let's get real for a second. Auckland gets additional gaming trust money to cover the costs of competing at the CWC and the O-League and have 50% of the CWC money to spend putting together a team. It's all in their accounts, there is no additional source of funds there, there's no sponsor or individual helping out, no-one is putting their own money in. This myth you've developed that the kind hearted souls spend a load of money on players, saving the league in the process and doing everyone else a favour is just laughable.
Oh, take ACFC and the O League prize money out of the equation and the ASBP will happily carry on will it? Try and keep a grip on reality JD. It costs ACFC money to compete in the O league and CWC to the level it does and yes individuals have dipped into their own pockets. In the end it's a well run ship which can balance the books because it wins on the field. Take out the O league prize money for one or two seasons and the ASBP will be on its knees in no time.
I agree, we should all be quick to acknowledge the generosity of the gamblers of Auckland Central, without whom none of this would be possible
Groan, this is such small-minded nonsense from the usual suspects.
Bluemagic
You make a statement with absolutely no foundation as to its accuracy - The same applied to WU when Rex Dawkins ran it. CU and HBU are in this ball park too.
I can assure you that HBU are nowhere near to several of the other franchises when it comes to money. Hawkes Bay is not a wealthy area, much of the sponsorship money goes to rugby which is the number 1 sport in the area. HBU struggles to make ends meet so please, don't live in awe of the financial wealth of the HBU franchise.
WU in its heyday under Rex Dawkins was competitive with ACFC on and off the field, as results proved, so I don't get the "absolutely no foundation" accusation. I don't know the financial figures for HBU and I'm sorry to hear they struggle to make ends meet because they're a decent team. If it's true they're really struggling then as I say NZF have it within their reach to help them financially as I've explained.
I think ACFC does it's bit to help the other franchises by winning the O League and plowing about 40% of that prize money back into the ASBP. It is bloody expensive putting together a quality team that can win the O League and be competitive in the CWC each season so it would be counterproductive to take further money out of ACFC to subsidize other franchises because if we lose the O League prize money the whole house of cards would come down.
It's NZF that needs to pull its finger out (have I mentioned this before).
Hold on - let's get real for a second. Auckland gets additional gaming trust money to cover the costs of competing at the CWC and the O-League and have 50% of the CWC money to spend putting together a team. It's all in their accounts, there is no additional source of funds there, there's no sponsor or individual helping out, no-one is putting their own money in. This myth you've developed that the kind hearted souls spend a load of money on players, saving the league in the process and doing everyone else a favour is just laughable.
Oh, take ACFC and the O League prize money out of the equation and the ASBP will happily carry on will it? Try and keep a grip on reality JD. It costs ACFC money to compete in the O league and CWC to the level it does and yes individuals have dipped into their own pockets. In the end it's a well run ship which can balance the books because it wins on the field. Take out the O league prize money for one or two seasons and the ASBP will be on its knees in no time, so yes ACFC does contribute overall actually.
Are you sure you're endorsing what I just posted JV? It's awfully nice of you if you do.
Here's a thought: If the ASBP is a development league as some of you think it should be and how NZF treat it then why are 'fans' being charged to go to the games and why are the teams being charged to compete?
Double dipping by NZF.
Bluemagic
You make a statement with absolutely no foundation as to its accuracy - The same applied to WU when Rex Dawkins ran it. CU and HBU are in this ball park too.
I can assure you that HBU are nowhere near to several of the other franchises when it comes to money. Hawkes Bay is not a wealthy area, much of the sponsorship money goes to rugby which is the number 1 sport in the area. HBU struggles to make ends meet so please, don't live in awe of the financial wealth of the HBU franchise.
WU in its heyday under Rex Dawkins was competitive with ACFC on and off the field, as results proved, so I don't get the "absolutely no foundation" accusation. I don't know the financial figures for HBU and I'm sorry to hear they struggle to make ends meet because they're a decent team. If it's true they're really struggling then as I say NZF have it within their reach to help them financially as I've explained.
I think ACFC does it's bit to help the other franchises by winning the O League and plowing about 40% of that prize money back into the ASBP. It is bloody expensive putting together a quality team that can win the O League and be competitive in the CWC each season so it would be counterproductive to take further money out of ACFC to subsidize other franchises because if we lose the O League prize money the whole house of cards would come down.
It's NZF that needs to pull its finger out (have I mentioned this before).
Hold on - let's get real for a second. Auckland gets additional gaming trust money to cover the costs of competing at the CWC and the O-League and have 50% of the CWC money to spend putting together a team. It's all in their accounts, there is no additional source of funds there, there's no sponsor or individual helping out, no-one is putting their own money in. This myth you've developed that the kind hearted souls spend a load of money on players, saving the league in the process and doing everyone else a favour is just laughable.
Oh, take ACFC and the O League prize money out of the equation and the ASBP will happily carry on will it? Try and keep a grip on reality JD. It costs ACFC money to compete in the O league and CWC to the level it does and yes individuals have dipped into their own pockets. In the end it's a well run ship which can balance the books because it wins on the field. Take out the O league prize money for one or two seasons and the ASBP will be on its knees in no time, so yes ACFC does contribute overall actually.
You contribute less to the other franchises in total than you yourselves receive in pokie funding from Trillion so I'm not sure why you keep emphasising the CWC prize money as being so important to the ASBP. It's important sure, but it's not nearly as important as pokie money.
I still think that any solution to the ASBP funding issue has to include finding a way to centralise the $2m (approx) per annum going into the league from pokie trusts. Pay as many costs as possible from a central pool and then distribute the rest evenly to franchises.
This is where NZF can really show some leadership because it will require NZF, the DIA, at least a couple of the big national gaming trusts and the ASBP franchises to all get in a room and hammer out a deal. It might even require regulatory change from the DIA. But if the end result is precious pokie money getting spent more efficiently and effectively (which is already flowing into the league in a distributed fashion anyway) then surely that's good for everybody, including the Govt.
Some nice side-effects would also be evening out funding (and hopefully competitiveness) across the franchises, and also reducing the possibility for back-door player payments via pokie money. Franchises could still pay players or incur other costs if they wanted to, but they would have to do it out of money they had actually generated themselves. Franchises would gain a financial competitive advantage through being hard-working and well-run, rather than via the current lottery of how close you are to a friendly pokie trust.
By the way BM, the money that you keep accusing NZF of "pocketing" out of the entry fee (which is about $15k per franchise, after paying for travel) surely just contributes to the salary of the NZF competitions manager and the cost of running the ASBP website. You wouldn't get much change out of $120k to do those two things so you can hardly describe it as some sort of NZF rort.
This isn't small-minded nonsense, it's just an objective analysis of how the league is currently funded and how it could be tweaked to achieve better outcomes. It's an unfortunate fact that any conversation about ASBP funding that isn't primarily about pokie funding is pretty pointless.
blah blah blah pokies blah blah blah pokies blah blah blah<snip>
translated for those who can't be bothered reading all that.
I thought so.
There is, however, a slight issue with the symmetry with the first line against the rest - this may cause a problem for our OCD members.
Here's a thought: If the ASBP is a development league as some of you think it should be and how NZF treat it then why are 'fans' being charged to go to the games and why are the teams being charged to compete?
Double dipping by NZF.
NZF doesn't get gate revenue though do they? Different teams have different policies, but that goes into their pockets.
TeeDub charge, and fair enough. When I go I'm happy to pay.
Doesn't have anything to do with whether it's a development league or not though does it?
Have 24 hours off Ali (only because I can't do just 12 hours).
We have asked for reasoned posts on this subject and had to shut two threads down already.
Realistically though, nobody could reach the same dizzying heights via pokie funding.
It's not uncommon for funding to be redistrubuted via luxury taxes in America for example, to even out the playing field a little bit, while the rich team still enjoys a (smaller) financial advantage over the others.
In re pokies. There is no viable alternative at present.
But if NZF got their stuff together surely it should be their mission in life to extract the maximum possible. Especially they should be looking to help smaller franchises drive a greater pokie revenue base.
I totally agree in principle NP but the problem with that is we're effectively saying every ASBP franchise needs a budget of around $1m, which means the entire league's budget would be around $8m.
That means finding an extra $5m per annum over current revenue, when the league only generates $1m of its own revenue now (including the CWC cash. Most franchises, including ACFC, generate very little 'real' revenue). Also, pokie trusts simply aren't going to plough that sort of money into paying players, which seems to be a key part of the "raising the standard to compete in the O-League" argument.
For further perspective, NZF's entire budget per annum is about $9m so they clearly cannot do much more to get the league to the levels that BM is advocating.
It's simply not a strategically pragmatic course of action to take.
I also think BM is overstating the degree to which the CWC money is propping up the rest of the league. Franchises typically receive around $30k from their share of CWC winnings, which for most of them is around 10-15% of total budget. ACFC's share is more like 30% of their budget (over 5 yrs to 2012 they averaged $300 pa CWC winnings, and $900k total revenue pa). So the team more dependent on CWC cash than anyone else is actually ACFC.
So here's a devil's advocate question - is competing in the O-League a bad strategic choice for football in NZ? What do we actually get out of it? Would we be financially better off by not competing in O-League and focusing on the ASBP?
I think that the way forward for the development of football in NZ is another 2 pro sides in the A League. Or at the very least another one. If that means a weaker NZFC but a stronger position for football in NZ in general then that's unfortunate but acceptable. I said this in the A League expansion thread a while ago:
As I see it, the odds of another A League team in NZ would increase considerably if the OFC and AFC agreed to work more closely together. There's always this murmuring about the OFC WC qualifier being placed into the AFC final qualifying stage. Obviously this benefits the AFC by meaning they don't have to playoff against a CONMEBOL or CONCACAF team, and the OFC by giving their qualifier more meaningful games.
If this was to happen though, it could be part of a wider deal to allow more teams from NZ (or anywhere else in the OFC) to enter the A League - if it's ever viable and the FFA agrees. Kiwi players (or other Oceanian players, depending on the team) playing in an NZ-based team in the A League would be counted as Aussies for ACL purposes. If say, an Auckland team was formed, that would mean the player pool for domestic football would be reduced in NZ, so other clubs from the Island nations would have more chance of qualifying for the CWC too (obviously would piss off the coal face fans in NZ, but not every deal can benefit every stakeholder. I still think the net benefits would be good for NZF). OFC could even take some cut from TV rights to the AFC leg of the WC qualifying from the qualifying team in order to sweeten the deal for them.
- AFC and its member nations get any easier WC path
- OFC get a bit more money from the qualifying and its member nations get more chance of meaningful games
- NZF get a second kiwi based professional club, and potentially more meaningful international matches
- I figure the FFA would be happy with any club that can survive and get decent crowds. If that's Auckland, then I doubt they'll care
Coalface fans on both sides of the Tasman would be pissed off but oh well, they're the eggs getting broken to make this tasty omelette.
Sadly, I'm sure that there's too much vested interest from people in key positions in the OFC and AFC for this to happen. Probably other political/financial reasons why it wouldn't happen too. People from the Middle East whingeing about travelling to NZ for matches or something (even though it's not really much further than Aussie if you've already come that far)
The issues with the NZFC might be partly the result of poor management and leadership from NZF but ultimately there's a limit to how good any NZ national football comp can be, which is caused by our small isolated domestic market and the plethora of competing entertainment/leisure options for potential fans.
Bluemagic
You make a statement with absolutely no foundation as to its accuracy - The same applied to WU when Rex Dawkins ran it. CU and HBU are in this ball park too.
I can assure you that HBU are nowhere near to several of the other franchises when it comes to money. Hawkes Bay is not a wealthy area, much of the sponsorship money goes to rugby which is the number 1 sport in the area. HBU struggles to make ends meet so please, don't live in awe of the financial wealth of the HBU franchise.
WU in its heyday under Rex Dawkins was competitive with ACFC on and off the field, as results proved, so I don't get the "absolutely no foundation" accusation. I don't know the financial figures for HBU and I'm sorry to hear they struggle to make ends meet because they're a decent team. If it's true they're really struggling then as I say NZF have it within their reach to help them financially as I've explained.
I think ACFC does it's bit to help the other franchises by winning the O League and plowing about 40% of that prize money back into the ASBP. It is bloody expensive putting together a quality team that can win the O League and be competitive in the CWC each season so it would be counterproductive to take further money out of ACFC to subsidize other franchises because if we lose the O League prize money the whole house of cards would come down.
It's NZF that needs to pull its finger out (have I mentioned this before).
Hold on - let's get real for a second. Auckland gets additional gaming trust money to cover the costs of competing at the CWC and the O-League and have 50% of the CWC money to spend putting together a team. It's all in their accounts, there is no additional source of funds there, there's no sponsor or individual helping out, no-one is putting their own money in. This myth you've developed that the kind hearted souls spend a load of money on players, saving the league in the process and doing everyone else a favour is just laughable.
Oh, take ACFC and the O League prize money out of the equation and the ASBP will happily carry on will it? Try and keep a grip on reality JD. It costs ACFC money to compete in the O league and CWC to the level it does and yes individuals have dipped into their own pockets. In the end it's a well run ship which can balance the books because it wins on the field. Take out the O league prize money for one or two seasons and the ASBP will be on its knees in no time, so yes ACFC does contribute overall actually.
You contribute less to the other franchises in total than you yourselves receive in pokie funding from Trillion so I'm not sure why you keep emphasising the CWC prize money as being so important to the ASBP. It's important sure, but it's not nearly as important as pokie money.
I still think that any solution to the ASBP funding issue has to include finding a way to centralise the $2m (approx) per annum going into the league from pokie trusts. Pay as many costs as possible from a central pool and then distribute the rest evenly to franchises.
This is where NZF can really show some leadership because it will require NZF, the DIA, at least a couple of the big national gaming trusts and the ASBP franchises to all get in a room and hammer out a deal. It might even require regulatory change from the DIA. But if the end result is precious pokie money getting spent more efficiently and effectively (which is already flowing into the league in a distributed fashion anyway) then surely that's good for everybody, including the Govt.
Some nice side-effects would also be evening out funding (and hopefully competitiveness) across the franchises, and also reducing the possibility for back-door player payments via pokie money. Franchises could still pay players or incur other costs if they wanted to, but they would have to do it out of money they had actually generated themselves. Franchises would gain a financial competitive advantage through being hard-working and well-run, rather than via the current lottery of how close you are to a friendly pokie trust.
By the way BM, the money that you keep accusing NZF of "pocketing" out of the entry fee (which is about $15k per franchise, after paying for travel) surely just contributes to the salary of the NZF competitions manager and the cost of running the ASBP website. You wouldn't get much change out of $120k to do those two things so you can hardly describe it as some sort of NZF rort.
This isn't small-minded nonsense, it's just an objective analysis of how the league is currently funded and how it could be tweaked to achieve better outcomes. It's an unfortunate fact that any conversation about ASBP funding that isn't primarily about pokie funding is pretty pointless.
You raise some good points. But, I ask again, why should the ASBP franchises (most of whom struggle to raise funding) pay for the salary of the NZF competitions manager? Surely his role covers lots of competitions so NZF should pay for him/her itself out of its brimming coffers. That $120K could easily be plowed back into the ASBP to support the struggling franchises.
The NZF rort is that not only does the ASBP have to be self-financing, it actually has to contribute to NZF coffers from money it raises/wins. I too want to see an evening out of the ASBP playing field but it has to start with NZF not taking money out of the competition for its own ends. NZF can easily afford to help, and that would make a big difference. They could easily put say $100,000 into helping the likes of SU and HBU pay their costs on top of returning the ASBP's own money. That combined $250,000 odd would relieve pressure on the struggling franchises without ACFC having to pay more into the ASBP than it already does (once again - 40% of the O League prize money it wins).
As you say NZF needs to show some leadership and as I keep saying, they don't care about the ASBP other than taking money out of it and using it as a practise ground. There lies the rub. Not ACFC's success on and off the field.
I totally agree in principle NP but the problem with that is we're effectively saying every ASBP franchise needs a budget of around $1m, which means the entire league's budget would be around $8m.
That means finding an extra $5m per annum over current revenue, when the league only generates $1m of its own revenue now (including the CWC cash. Most franchises, including ACFC, generate very little 'real' revenue). Also, pokie trusts simply aren't going to plough that sort of money into paying players, which seems to be a key part of the "raising the standard to compete in the O-League" argument.
For further perspective, NZF's entire budget per annum is about $9m so they clearly cannot do much more to get the league to the levels that BM is advocating.
It's simply not a strategically pragmatic course of action to take.
I also think BM is overstating the degree to which the CWC money is propping up the rest of the league. Franchises typically receive around $30k from their share of CWC winnings, which for most of them is around 10-15% of total budget. ACFC's share is more like 30% of their budget (over 5 yrs to 2012 they averaged $300 pa CWC winnings, and $900k total revenue pa). So the team more dependent on CWC cash than anyone else is actually ACFC.
So here's a devil's advocate question - is competing in the O-League a bad strategic choice for football in NZ? What do we actually get out of it? Would we be financially better off by not competing in O-League and focusing on the ASBP?
That's an interesting point because competing in the O league at the level of ACFC requires extra investment, which can only be recouped if ACFC wins the competition. When WU failed to win the O league several years ago it sent them into a financial tailspin from which they never recovered. It wasn't the only reason but it contributed. Now WU are not even competitive in the O League and they're probably going to struggle in next season's ASBP.
TW are going to find out for themselves next season that the standard of the O League is getting much better because rich investors are pouring money into teams like Amicale (Vanuatu) and Dragon (Tahiti). Big crowds turn out in Melanesia and Tahiti. ACFC went to the wire against Amicale in a thrilling home leg final last season at Kiwitea Street. It could have gone either way. The Amicale team by the way featured two Serbians pros and a former Scot pro and was bankrolled by a wealthy supermarket tycoon. Dragon is near professional and Hekari (New Guinea) has rich mining interests behind it.
To take away ACFC's ability to put out its strongest side will diminish NZ's chances of winning the O league. Take that $30,000+ away from say CU or WaiBop and do you seriously think they could continue in the ASBP?
Another factor is frankly the ASBP has been so devalued by NZF indifference over the years that if there was no O League I doubt ACFC would attract the players/coach it does. The prospect of going to the Fifa Club World Cup is still a big incentive. We wouldn't have Ramon for a start. I truly don't believe the ASBP would survive without the O league.
Bluemagic
You make a statement with absolutely no foundation as to its accuracy - The same applied to WU when Rex Dawkins ran it. CU and HBU are in this ball park too.
I can assure you that HBU are nowhere near to several of the other franchises when it comes to money. Hawkes Bay is not a wealthy area, much of the sponsorship money goes to rugby which is the number 1 sport in the area. HBU struggles to make ends meet so please, don't live in awe of the financial wealth of the HBU franchise.
WU in its heyday under Rex Dawkins was competitive with ACFC on and off the field, as results proved, so I don't get the "absolutely no foundation" accusation. I don't know the financial figures for HBU and I'm sorry to hear they struggle to make ends meet because they're a decent team. If it's true they're really struggling then as I say NZF have it within their reach to help them financially as I've explained.
I think ACFC does it's bit to help the other franchises by winning the O League and plowing about 40% of that prize money back into the ASBP. It is bloody expensive putting together a quality team that can win the O League and be competitive in the CWC each season so it would be counterproductive to take further money out of ACFC to subsidize other franchises because if we lose the O League prize money the whole house of cards would come down.
It's NZF that needs to pull its finger out (have I mentioned this before).
Hold on - let's get real for a second. Auckland gets additional gaming trust money to cover the costs of competing at the CWC and the O-League and have 50% of the CWC money to spend putting together a team. It's all in their accounts, there is no additional source of funds there, there's no sponsor or individual helping out, no-one is putting their own money in. This myth you've developed that the kind hearted souls spend a load of money on players, saving the league in the process and doing everyone else a favour is just laughable.
Oh, take ACFC and the O League prize money out of the equation and the ASBP will happily carry on will it? Try and keep a grip on reality JD. It costs ACFC money to compete in the O league and CWC to the level it does and yes individuals have dipped into their own pockets. In the end it's a well run ship which can balance the books because it wins on the field. Take out the O league prize money for one or two seasons and the ASBP will be on its knees in no time.
I agree, we should all be quick to acknowledge the generosity of the gamblers of Auckland Central, without whom none of this would be possible
Groan, this is such small-minded nonsense from the usual suspects.
It's not actually, it's just demonstrating how deluded you are when you think that anyone other than gaming trusts are funding this whole thing. ACFC make about $50k from entrance fees, $100k (max) from sponsorship and $500k (minimum) from gaming trusts. That is a fact, it's not in dispute, so stop pretending otherwise.
I know this is off point (as this was about salaries before we got into our usual tedious debate), but here's a different proposal I have been thinking about.
Part of the problem with the league is lack of competition.
Part of the problem is the tedious nature of playing the same teams all the time.
Part of the problem is that because there is no sanction for poor performance teams can basically decide to have a year off, which Otago and Waikato have both done from time to time, and just start again next season.
Part of the problem is there is almost no interest in the league for the weaker teams who aren't going to do anything at all and can't get relegated.
Part of the problem is because the league is funded by gaming trusts, people in charge of teams aren't accountable to fans, and gaming trusts pay against costs not results like real sponsors would.
My solution, focus on as soon as possible bringing in an 8 team div 2. You could just about do it tomorrow - Phoenix 2 or a 2nd Wellington team, Palmy, Nelson, A.N.Other Auckland team (or 2, Sth and Nth Shore), Wairarapa as well. Tauranga could probably manage a team. Sure they might be a bit less organised than the existing well run franchises but that's life. You just have to deal with that.
Start enforcing the original franchise agreement in div 1 but have a bit more leniency in div 2. I'd also have an official/unofficial wage cap in div 2.
Suddenly you have a competition which looks a lot more interesting. Promotion and relegation. Pressure on teams to perform. More media attention. I don't think it would necessarily overnight increase playing standards, but it would be a lot more fun and a lot more interesting.
With 16 teams you could reduce the entry fee a little. You'd have to push hard on costs in div 2. Introduce proper regulation of overseas players to keep costs down. Also I'd introduce a requirement to have 2 U20s in starting squads.
This is only an outline, but to me it makes more sense than a 10 or 12 team div 1 with no promo or relegation.
This league is damn near broke and terribly run ...I dont think adding a heap more teams running on oily rags would help anything ...unfortunately ,
Me ,Im getting rich the old fashioned way , my offspring will have a fabo idea and Ill back him and get rich off the proceeds !
Then youll see an ACFC funded up to their ears !
I know this is off point (as this was about salaries before we got into our usual tedious debate), but here's a different proposal I have been thinking about.
Part of the problem with the league is lack of competition.
Part of the problem is the tedious nature of playing the same teams all the time.
Part of the problem is that because there is no sanction for poor performance teams can basically decide to have a year off, which Otago and Waikato have both done from time to time, and just start again next season.
Part of the problem is there is almost no interest in the league for the weaker teams who aren't going to do anything at all and can't get relegated.
Part of the problem is because the league is funded by gaming trusts, people in charge of teams aren't accountable to fans, and gaming trusts pay against costs not results like real sponsors would.
My solution, focus on as soon as possible bringing in an 8 team div 2. You could just about do it tomorrow - Phoenix 2 or a 2nd Wellington team, Palmy, Nelson, A.N.Other Auckland team (or 2, Sth and Nth Shore), Wairarapa as well. Tauranga could probably manage a team. Sure they might be a bit less organised than the existing well run franchises but that's life. You just have to deal with that.
Start enforcing the original franchise agreement in div 1 but have a bit more leniency in div 2. I'd also have an official/unofficial wage cap in div 2.
Suddenly you have a competition which looks a lot more interesting. Promotion and relegation. Pressure on teams to perform. More media attention. I don't think it would necessarily overnight increase playing standards, but it would be a lot more fun and a lot more interesting.
With 16 teams you could reduce the entry fee a little. You'd have to push hard on costs in div 2. Introduce proper regulation of overseas players to keep costs down. Also I'd introduce a requirement to have 2 U20s in starting squads.
This is only an outline, but to me it makes more sense than a 10 or 12 team div 1 with no promo or relegation.
Personally I don't think a second division is viable because of high travel costs although I like the notion of relegation/promotion.
Gaming trust funding will inevitably be uneven based on population etc.
Instead of a second division how about the bottom team each season has to go into a promotion/relegation play-off with a new franchise?If none comes forward in a particular season then the bottom team stays. This would at least stop ASBP sides taking a season off.
The ASBP becomes an 8 franchise competition (bring in South Auckland and Nelson).
NZF stop taking any funding out of franchise entry fees or O league prizemoney. Instead they put up $100,000 each season so that overall $250,000 odd is poured back to subsidize costs for the sides below a certain income threshold. This means NZF is effectively investing $100,000 (a modest amount) into its main domestic development league and not taking anything out.
The Phoenix reserve team play friendlies against ASBP sides to gain game time. The ASBP side keeps the gate.
Bluemagic
You make a statement with absolutely no foundation as to its accuracy - The same applied to WU when Rex Dawkins ran it. CU and HBU are in this ball park too.
I can assure you that HBU are nowhere near to several of the other franchises when it comes to money. Hawkes Bay is not a wealthy area, much of the sponsorship money goes to rugby which is the number 1 sport in the area. HBU struggles to make ends meet so please, don't live in awe of the financial wealth of the HBU franchise.
WU in its heyday under Rex Dawkins was competitive with ACFC on and off the field, as results proved, so I don't get the "absolutely no foundation" accusation. I don't know the financial figures for HBU and I'm sorry to hear they struggle to make ends meet because they're a decent team. If it's true they're really struggling then as I say NZF have it within their reach to help them financially as I've explained.
I think ACFC does it's bit to help the other franchises by winning the O League and plowing about 40% of that prize money back into the ASBP. It is bloody expensive putting together a quality team that can win the O League and be competitive in the CWC each season so it would be counterproductive to take further money out of ACFC to subsidize other franchises because if we lose the O League prize money the whole house of cards would come down.
It's NZF that needs to pull its finger out (have I mentioned this before).
Hold on - let's get real for a second. Auckland gets additional gaming trust money to cover the costs of competing at the CWC and the O-League and have 50% of the CWC money to spend putting together a team. It's all in their accounts, there is no additional source of funds there, there's no sponsor or individual helping out, no-one is putting their own money in. This myth you've developed that the kind hearted souls spend a load of money on players, saving the league in the process and doing everyone else a favour is just laughable.
Oh, take ACFC and the O League prize money out of the equation and the ASBP will happily carry on will it? Try and keep a grip on reality JD. It costs ACFC money to compete in the O league and CWC to the level it does and yes individuals have dipped into their own pockets. In the end it's a well run ship which can balance the books because it wins on the field. Take out the O league prize money for one or two seasons and the ASBP will be on its knees in no time.
I agree, we should all be quick to acknowledge the generosity of the gamblers of Auckland Central, without whom none of this would be possible
Groan, this is such small-minded nonsense from the usual suspects.
It's not actually, it's just demonstrating how deluded you are when you think that anyone other than gaming trusts are funding this whole thing. ACFC make about $50k from entrance fees, $100k (max) from sponsorship and $500k (minimum) from gaming trusts. That is a fact, it's not in dispute, so stop pretending otherwise.
I've never said ACFC doesn't get sizeable funding from gaming trusts to add to gate and sponsorship. But it has also won the O league for the past four seasons and that's won it about $350k a season by its onfield performance, while investing nearly that amount back in the ASBP overall. That's a big contribution.
hang on, 350k/7 is $50k per team (which seems a bit high, but we'll go with that). That isn't actually as much as you're making out when you compare it to how much pokie money is floating about in the ASBP.
As termy said, it's about 15% of a teams total budget.
hang on, 350k/7 is $50k per team (which seems a bit high, but we'll go with that). That isn't actually as much as you're making out when you compare it to how much pokie money is floating about in the ASBP.
As termy said, it's about 15% of a teams total budget.
Yes it's about $350k of the O League prizemoney goes back to the ASBP, but unfortunately NZF trouser about $80k of that which means the other franchises get about $30-$35k each. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. Still a pretty good contribution off the back of ACFC's efforts. It would be nearer $50k for each franchise if NZF didn't make its unjustified grab which would push it up to nearer 25% of some team's total budget.
I gather that what ACFC keeps of the O League prizemoney makes about 35-40% of the club's ASBP budget, less I guess recouping any extra out of pocket spending on the O League campaign.
Hang on Hard News, I have a bone to pick with you. You've banned Alireggae for 24 hours for saying "blah, blah" and yet Jeff Vader is allowed to throw a really nasty corruption slur at ACFC (read dodgy Balkan types) by posting "unless you happen to receive mysterious brown paper envelopes in dark alleys in Sandringham" - and nothing happens.
I know this was probably received with chortles of delight by the usual ACFC-haters but this is a really unjustified and slanderous accusation of corruption on a bunch of good football people who run ACFC. This is typical of the constant inference that somehow ACFC is corrupt by certain individuals on this forum but statements like that are far more deserving of a ban than what Ali said in jest.
If what JV implied about ACFC was directed at Welnix you would be livid HN and I'm sure the ban stick would come out. Double standards seem to apply. I bet JV won't have the courage to voice this sneer in person down at Kiwitea Street? If the club was Italian run it would all be about the mafia wouldn't it.
I expect you to be fair Hard News.
I agree but there should be some sort of standards about what people are allowed to say or imply. Give respect where it's due. There's funny and there's just plain nasty. It just seems any mud is allowed to be thrown at ACFC.
I agree but there should be some sort of standards about what people are allowed to say or imply. Give respect where it's due. There's funny and there's just plain nasty. It just seems any mud is allowed to be thrown at ACFC.
Deep breaths folks.
The standard of debate in this thread has been bloody good. There have been some solutions proposed, and debated.
Can we just stay away from the pot shots. Yes ACFC is a well run ship, we know. Yes they do get almost all of their money from pokies. We know that too. It doesn't actually matter that much. The other bigger issues discussed in the above couple of pages (more funding, NZF's role, league structure, etc etc) are heaps more interesting. Can we keep chipping away at those?
And Newsy, if we've been wielding the banstick unfairly let's fix that up.
Self bans ?
I agree but there should be some sort of standards about what people are allowed to say or imply. Give respect where it's due. There's funny and there's just plain nasty. It just seems any mud is allowed to be thrown at ACFC.
Deep breaths folks.
The standard of debate in this thread has been bloody good. There have been some solutions proposed, and debated.
Can we just stay away from the pot shots. Yes ACFC is a well run ship, we know. Yes they do get almost all of their money from pokies. We know that too. It doesn't actually matter that much. The other bigger issues discussed in the above couple of pages (more funding, NZF's role, league structure, etc etc) are heaps more interesting. Can we keep chipping away at those?
And Newsy, if we've been wielding the banstick unfairly let's fix that up.
Actually Smithy, while appreciating your sentiments, I wish to point out a mistake. ACFC doesn't get almost all its monies from pokes, it gets about half. The rest comes from gates, sponsorship and winning the O League every season. There's a big difference.
As you were.
DISSENT .... DISSENT ....!!!
I agree but there should be some sort of standards about what people are allowed to say or imply. Give respect where it's due. There's funny and there's just plain nasty. It just seems any mud is allowed to be thrown at ACFC.
Deep breaths folks.
The standard of debate in this thread has been bloody good. There have been some solutions proposed, and debated.
Can we just stay away from the pot shots. Yes ACFC is a well run ship, we know. Yes they do get almost all of their money from pokies. We know that too. It doesn't actually matter that much. The other bigger issues discussed in the above couple of pages (more funding, NZF's role, league structure, etc etc) are heaps more interesting. Can we keep chipping away at those?
And Newsy, if we've been wielding the banstick unfairly let's fix that up.
Actually Smithy, while appreciating your sentiments, I wish to point out a mistake. ACFC doesn't get almost all its monies from pokes, it gets about half. The rest comes from gates, sponsorship and winning the O League every season. There's a big difference.
As you were.
Hmmm, not sure if trolling or deliberately missed my point about focusing on the more important issues :)
Carry on.