NZFC future (take 10 - plus Cantab fail)

I hear what you are saying Craig - but your knowledge of Wellie football is dated by the sounds. The halcyon days of WDU and Mar are gone.

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Hi Feverish, I think our respective views highlight exactly the first issue that needs to determined before you can progress to establishing competitions / leagues.

Large crowds don't guarantee we will ever progress in quality of football or international success. I agree it is far preferable watching a game in a big crowd and one of the reasons I go to so many games overseas. The Japan v Australia game this week in Melbourne was a fairly ordinary serving of football. However in a crowd of 70,000 it became a good night out.

The general public has clearly spoken and no more so than in Wellington. The 8-10,000 supporters at the Phoenix games this year didn't turn up at Team Wellington once the A-League finished.

To my mind we need to recognise that the NL is the breeding ground for our age group representatives and hopefully some will move on to the professional game. The individual technical development of players is done at a much younger age.

At first team senior level we need to be engaging players for a longer period of time each year and playing more games. The absolute ideal would be a +30 game NL. The reality is we can't afford this and that is why we stumble from format to format every 3-5 years.

As is constantly posted the game is too reliant on Trust Funding. The game at NL level will never generate enough commercial sponsorship and gate money to be self sustaining by the 8-10 teams playing in it.

If you accept that premise you start to work back to how do we get +30 games at an affordable cost and retain the highest standard of play.

In a playing sense that is really what we have now. Winter teams play 18 games plus Chatham Cup and then the best players go off to play NZFC. However we heap the majority of cost on to 8 franchises!

We now however are at the point where the CEO of NZF is optimistic this years league will proceed with a minimum of 5-6 teams. I take this to read that possibly two more franchises are thought to be likely to not make the start line.

If that is the case where to next for the game?

We need stability and sustainability while achieving the purpose of the league. Which we still need to agree upon.

Cheers

Craig

cheers. that is making sense. Should be added to the contributions to the review commitee.

In a way it's a bit like first class cricktet in NZ.  No bugger goes to watch, but everyone recognises that we have to spend the money on it and keep it going to keep the standard as high as possible, and continue producing players.  It's always a bonus if you can get people along to watch, but that's not the main aim.

I'm probably biased here as I love watching National league football and maybe I'm just looking at a blinkered view that I have much more attachment to TeeDubs than I am likely to (or have had) for any other national league side.

I'm also less likely to end up following it closely knowing that the side I follow one year may not be playing the next.  TBF I like watching Central league and other games as well, but more to have a laugh and a beer and to chat with people than intently watch the game.

...but then it comes down to what is viable, like everything, and it's pretty obvious NZ football's heart isn't in the NZFC.  I doubt that it would be in any other competion either, but something has to be done to either engage them or bypass them for a domestic competition to succeed.

I still think the NZFC is the best solution, but with the franchises having to fight to survive and having to put up with clubs whining about players being committed to the national league (instead of comedy regional leagues) and NZF showing little keenness for it it's pretty obviously going to die.  God knows where that leaves the Phoenix reserves, and the lofty aims of footballing scholarships for youth players.

I agree with JD, the objective should be to get the best players playing against each other.

I also agree with Craig, the season is too short.

I further agree with Craig that it would make sense to somehow spread the burden of funding the league.

I agree with Hard News and Feverish that Wellington people are much more likely to watch a regional franchise than an opposing club.

I don't think Craig's plan will work because the best players won't play.  That is the major flaw as I see it.  I also think we would be running the risk of major resource-wasting trying to qualify for the national phase, as we had in the pre-NZFC club national league days.

My view is that the NZFC isn't really broken.  It needs funding, not fixing.

James Dean I have to agree with you that my proposal will initially weaken playing standards as you would have 12 clubs at the NL stage as opposed to the current 8 franchises. On the other side of that statement should we be happy that Canterbury have dropped out of the league. With only 7 teams, playing strength must improve as the best will consolidate in to fewer teams.

I also agree that many clubs are now not much above social teams but I think the NZFC has helped contribute to this. With nothing to aim for then the best winter teams have had nothing t odifferentiate themselves fr om the truly social clubs. The best example being Mt Wellington who now don't even play at regional league level. North Shore are struggling in the US1 Premier League and these are two of our games most successful clubs. But they have lost their reason or passion to compete.

On the other side of the coin their are clubs who would love the opportunity to compete at the top level. East Coast Bays are perhaps the best example and won last year's Chatham Cup.

A club based NL could, presuming they perform at Regional League level first and continuously have a high percentage of the existing NZFC entities. Waitakere, Auckland City and Hawkes Bay are are built on existing club structures. The Manawatu team in the first couple of years under Colin Tua was essentially the same squad as he had i nthe last club based NL. Canterbury United even in the old club NL operated under a joint entry. Waikato should Melville or Wanderers make it out of the Regional League would be as good as the Waikato FC squad. The best players in the region plus recruits from Auckland.

Therefore a club based NL would contain up to 6 familiar looking sides provided they were good enough to qualify. This is 75% of the current NZFC and 50% of the proposed NL round.

If Wellington wanted to maintain the current Team format it could follow the Canterbury template. However, I'm sure the Olympics, Wests, Miramar would have personal aspirations.

As for players rejecting the opportunity to play NL. This is more likely to occur if Regional Leagues are played at the same time as a NL. This became a major problem with the old Swiss Maid League in Auckland where clubs were paying more than NL clubs and diluting the playing standards.

I can understand the reluctance in Wellington and the loyalty to home club. However it seems the problem may well be limited to Wellington as I don't necessarily see the same challenges in other centres.

It may take a couple of seasons for clubs / players to accept the concept.

I know one issue we had at ACFC and Waitakere was bringing players from winter clubs was having to retrain them to the tactics and strategies being used within the franchise. The regional league flowing in to NL allows for continuity with the majority of the clubs squad.

If the proposal doesn't work we won't have saddled the game or certain entities with a massive debt and I expect a enough clubs will step up to the plate. At the end of the day there are huge incentives to succeed.

Can I just add I have met a lot of people in this game and while I don't necessarily agree with all of them I do respect the time they put in to it whether coaching, playing, administrating or refereeing.
A huge number have a personal agenda but that is ultimately why they are prepared to put in the time they do. The game needs these people.

What we all need is for some clear direction and leadership from the very top of the game. Whatever that vision is needs to allow all those volunteers to believe they are contributing and still allow them to operate at their own personal level where ever that may be within the game.

While we continue to debate various points on this forum it won't actually change anything as we don't lead or control the game. Some times you won't make the right decision first time round, but even if it is the wrong decision at least it allows us to all get busy within the established structure.

Imagine if you were on the board of a franchise today? What planning can you put in place. Do you sign a coach to a two year contract - you might not even exist in 9 months time. When do you start pre-season training because when is your first league match. What do you present to sponsors and trusts when asking for money?

Do you know what Paul, I think that one of the key issues is that no-one knows exactky what kind of sums we are talking about.  Do we need 1m to save the league or 100k?

Craig, I think we're on the same page in grappling with a lot of these issues, maybe have slightly different answers but it's good that people are seeing things to some extent in the same way.  I'm only young (ish) and I currently live in London so I'm only looking on from afar, but I will be back and intend to be involved somehwere.

I tend to think that the NZFC model of basically using the best facilities, and the best available players in each region has merit.  I know that's what the transfer window between thenend of the regional season and the national round is designed to do, but I'm not necessarily convinved that's the best way to do it.  But the goal is the same, best players playing against each other as much as possible.

james dean2009-06-19 22:59:23

When you should be recording units and billing some time.  Slacker.

I'nm in house at the moment on secondment - no time recoding and guaranteed not to lose my job for 6 months.  Result!

JD - I have been involved with both clubs but hold no capacity in either and have not done so for approximately 18 months.

Because both clubs have aspired to the CWC they have chased that dream as a result they have lifted the recruitment stakes. However, big signings don't guarantee results. Just remember ACFC this season lost 1/3 of their regular season games. Because we indulge in playoffs they happened to have won the two games against Waitakere that mattered. NZFC Grand Final and O League. As a consequence they have taken all the prizes this year but those were the rules at the start of the season so well done ACFC.

Waitakere in season 2 bought in 3 aussies - Shannon Cole is now with Sydney FC however they finished 6th.

So they don't always get it right on the pitch.

The fact that both clubs have fostered tremendous relationships with particular trusts and sold their vision and community work to these trusts should be applauded.

Having qualified for the CWC has however bought in to the local game a huge amount of money. Last year each franchise got over $60k from Waitakere going t othe CWC. Instead of paying this to the franchises NZF could keep this approx $500k towards running the NL portion of the season. On top of the $300k entry fees from Regional League participants gives over $800k for the NL. Sponsorship and naming rights on top and suddenly a $1 million looks realistic.

So the CWC is a boon for the local game if we treat it right. Missing out on this avenue of funding would be the travesty.

I would dare to suggest the Regional League / NL structure would be more beneficial for ACFC / Central United than what they are currently experiencing where their NZFC squad is spread across maybe up to 5 winter clubs (all with different coaching philosophies) and the probability of a 12 game NZFC.

I see Canterbuary have now withdrawn their letter of resignation from the league and will now participate,Also Waitakere have appointed Neil Emblem as their new Head coach to replace Chris Milicich which proves success does not guarantee you a position.Neil will have to get his International licence quickly,he is doing a great winter job,with Waitakere with Carl Jorgensen as his assistant now with the inclusion of Darren Bazeley this is a great team for the future.

Absolutely agree. I really like the NZFC model for all the reasons that have already been discussed here.

There's no doubt in my mind that not getting a more equitable distribution of CWC prize-money right from the start (and making sure it was used for promotion/development of the league) was a big f**k up. That's one thing Football can control and we should fix it straight away.

Maybe we also need to look beyond football for a way ahead? NZ is an inherently difficult place to run a national league - small population spread over a big area (bigger than the UK actually) - and there are plenty of other sports in the same boat. They were setting up a model in the Manawatu a few years back where several sports were going to share a single administrative office based at Sport Manawatu. I have no idea how that worked out but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Whether it worked or not it's an example of the kind of lateral thinking we need more of.

A model like that is also a potentially a better use of gaming trust funding, which at the end of the day is just the result of an indirect tax on gamblers by the government. How about centralising more of that money and distributing it through a funding agency (like SPARC) to regional sports trusts to run (or purchase) administrative hubs for local sports competing in national leagues? This model possibly makes to easier to attract commercial funding as well. Sponsoring Team Wellington might not be that attractive on its own but what about the option to sponsor 3 or 4 regional sports teams competing nationally through a single contract?

Just some thoughts but there must be a better way than all these different sports basically all trying to do the same thing on their own.

Nice idea above. Every  team except for ACFC and Waitakere Utd just needs funding. This year it would be great for one game a week be shown on tv!?!

Lateral thinking-

We can't assume that we will have a NZFC team in the CWC every year because a NZ team may still miss out winning an O-league or Oceania will lose it's place in the preliminary stage because of FIFA. We should see the $500,000 as a bonus but not a regular yearly revenue.

The NZFC match fees are cheaper this year so it's great news for Canty Utd and others.

Personally I think that there should be officials walking the street selling tickets to public rather than waiting for the masses to bother walking to the gates. Just get sellers out and about.

There is a psychological difference having someone telling you that it is a fun and reasonably cheap time out for the family than waiting for non-football people to come up for the idea of going to a game at all.

Need to sway the masses. NZFC can't sell itself.

I blame A.S.H - if Rothmans and Winfield were allowed to still sponsor sport we'd be a lot better off! Push play and have a fag after - it's all about balance.

Why doesn't someone from the media email or phone NZF to find out what the figures are? Why doesnt somebody from the media do a story on the NZL involvement on the FIFA Club WC and the financial benefits? If the NZFC is close to falling over each year, can it be a healthy thing for individual clubs, the association to divvy up the dough? Where does that dough go too?

hi Mikhailichenko,I host a Radio Football show every Tuesday 12.15-1pm on Radio Sport called ON THE BALL WITH MILES AND YATESY this is a local football programme the frequency is 1332am Miles and I will take up your question with the powers of NZF listen next Tuesday
Regards
 yATESY

[/QUOTE And wy aus poewrs soe stupied inknot llowing nix reserve teem in there yooof lege  !

Media what media. Haven't you guys been reading the news. Job cuts at Fairfax, TVNZ pretty much everywhere. The media is watered down to the point where they are only basically rehashing press releases. Football coverage. Get real. Unless it is buggerball, you have no chance.