Wanderers SC

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Ronaldoknow
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otagofan wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11158965

Wanderers 'Special Club'

Perhaps the most scathing line though was...

Meanwhile the Wanderers SC name has been accepted in good grace at Porritt Stadium, the home base of Wanderers Sports Club (Hamilton), a football entity which has been incorporated under that handle since 1985.

"We were a bit worried at first that people would think this team new team was us," said Wanderers president Brendon Coker. "But we understand why they have done it and it is no biggie for us.

"We were more interested in how they raised the $65,000 for the their team entry fee."

Nothing scathing at all about that, very good question, all franchises except Wanderers put up $65k to enter the league then NZF put a nil cost entry in at the expense of one of the important areas in a federation (Youngheart - there were also very good cases for Wairarapa and Nelson). Lame. And the ASB Premiership is not there to develop players! Franchises can develop players sure, by playing them in the league if they're good enough, you can even artificially create a positive environment for young players through the rules which has been done. If it was all about developing players Declan Edge would have been coach of the year, not run out of town. It's our showpiece national competition ffs. 
They are completely out of order here with the Wanderers team (and the meaning of SC makes it completely laughable, I can think of another couple of words that would be more appropriate). Ad hoc decision that clearly demonstrates a lack of administrative capability at the highest level. Farcical. A poor decision that can not be justified by either results or crowd size. Smacks of DeJong and VanHattum kicking a ball around down at the local park, Van Hattum gets pissed off about all the goals DeJong keeps scoring so demands the goal be made smaller while DeJong complains its too hard to score so wants the goal made bigger - its exactly that - I'll move the goal posts to get what I want, bugger anyone else.
November 19, 2013 08:33
alireggae
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Ronaldoknow wrote:
otagofan wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11158965

Wanderers 'Special Club'

Perhaps the most scathing line though was...

Meanwhile the Wanderers SC name has been accepted in good grace at Porritt Stadium, the home base of Wanderers Sports Club (Hamilton), a football entity which has been incorporated under that handle since 1985.

"We were a bit worried at first that people would think this team new team was us," said Wanderers president Brendon Coker. "But we understand why they have done it and it is no biggie for us.

"We were more interested in how they raised the $65,000 for the their team entry fee."

Nothing scathing at all about that, very good question, all franchises except Wanderers put up $65k to enter the league then NZF put a nil cost entry in at the expense of one of the important areas in a federation (Youngheart - there were also very good cases for Wairarapa and Nelson). Lame. And the ASB Premiership is not there to develop players! Franchises can develop players sure, by playing them in the league if they're good enough, you can even artificially create a positive environment for young players through the rules which has been done. If it was all about developing players Declan Edge would have been coach of the year, not run out of town. It's our showpiece national competition ffs. 

They are completely out of order here with the Wanderers team (and the meaning of SC makes it completely laughable, I can think of another couple of words that would be more appropriate). Ad hoc decision that clearly demonstrates a lack of administrative capability at the highest level. Farcical. A poor decision that can not be justified by either results or crowd size. Smacks of DeJong and VanHattum kicking a ball around down at the local park, Van Hattum gets pissed off about all the goals DeJong keeps scoring so demands the goal be made smaller while DeJong complains its too hard to score so wants the goal made bigger - its exactly that - I'll move the goal posts to get what I want, bugger anyone else.


Well said.
November 19, 2013 08:38
Buffon II
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Ronaldoknow wrote:
 And the ASB Premiership is not there to develop players! 

Pretty sure the inclusion of the Wanderers proves that it is.
November 19, 2013 08:39
Global Game
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Buffon II wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:
 And the ASB Premiership is not there to develop players! 


Pretty sure the inclusion of the Wanderers proves that it is.



Buffon, I'll agree with you if Wanderers are still there in the next WC cycles - ie, U17 2015 play in ASB Youth 2014/15 and U20 2017 in ASB Prem 2015/16.
If not, then we probably have a simple case of FDJ nepotism.
November 19, 2013 10:46 · Edited November 19, 2013 10:49
Ronaldoknow
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Buffon II wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:
 And the ASB Premiership is not there to develop players! 


Pretty sure the inclusion of the Wanderers proves that it is.

Bollocks, nothing of the sort frankly, all it proves is that NZF are short of cash and they don't know what they are doing.
November 19, 2013 16:15
Buffon II
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Stretford End wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:
 And the ASB Premiership is not there to develop players! 


Pretty sure the inclusion of the Wanderers proves that it is.



Buffon, I'll agree with you if Wanderers are still there in the next WC cycles - ie, U17 2015 play in ASB Youth 2014/15 and U20 2017 in ASB Prem 2015/16.
If not, then we probably have a simple case of FDJ nepotism.

Yeah that is a fair point.

Also will be interesting to see if any of these players pick up contracts out of the 2015 WC. If so i'd say the concept will be deemed a success and continued. If not, perhaps look at other avenues.
November 19, 2013 16:23
Global Game
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Buffon II wrote:
Stretford End wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:
 And the ASB Premiership is not there to develop players! 


Pretty sure the inclusion of the Wanderers proves that it is.



Buffon, I'll agree with you if Wanderers are still there in the next WC cycles - ie, U17 2015 play in ASB Youth 2014/15 and U20 2017 in ASB Prem 2015/16.
If not, then we probably have a simple case of FDJ nepotism.


Yeah that is a fair point.


Also will be interesting to see if any of these players pick up contracts out of the 2015 WC. If so i'd say the concept will be deemed a success and continued. If not, perhaps look at other avenues.

On that basis (and I'm not sure whether I agree it not yet) is it too far a leap to suggest it all comes down to de Jong junior picking up a pro contract somewhere along the way? If that were to happen would NZF suddenly lose interest? Is Wanderers concept a threat to Nix FSE/academy or complementary to it? I'll stop now. 
November 19, 2013 16:38
Buffon II
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Stretford End wrote:

On that basis (and I'm not sure whether I agree it not yet) is it too far a leap to suggest it all comes down to de Jong junior picking up a pro contract somewhere along the way? If that were to happen would NZF suddenly lose interest? Is Wanderers concept a threat to Nix FSE/academy or complementary to it? I'll stop now. 


Complimentary. Good to have more than one avenue into pro football within this country.
November 19, 2013 16:40
Global Game
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Buffon II wrote:
Stretford End wrote:

On that basis (and I'm not sure whether I agree it not yet) is it too far a leap to suggest it all comes down to de Jong junior picking up a pro contract somewhere along the way? If that were to happen would NZF suddenly lose interest? Is Wanderers concept a threat to Nix FSE/academy or complementary to it? I'll stop now. 


Complimentary. Good to have more than one avenue into pro football within this country.

So that would be 'complementary' then; on 2nd thoughts I guess you are paying the Wanderers a compliment ;)

November 19, 2013 16:48 · Edited November 19, 2013 16:49
Buffon II
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Stretford End wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Stretford End wrote:

On that basis (and I'm not sure whether I agree it not yet) is it too far a leap to suggest it all comes down to de Jong junior picking up a pro contract somewhere along the way? If that were to happen would NZF suddenly lose interest? Is Wanderers concept a threat to Nix FSE/academy or complementary to it? I'll stop now. 


Complimentary. Good to have more than one avenue into pro football within this country.

So that would be 'complementary' then; on 2nd thoughts I guess you are paying the Wanderers a compliment ;)


Haha, my grammar needs a touch up. 
November 19, 2013 16:52
happydays
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Look I agree that this concept has some flaws but I will say it is good to see NZF trying something different. It could turn out to be a complete failure and we will all point and moan about NZF. Again. However, there is a chance that some good will come of it - hopefully at least a core of players will spend a lot of time together over the next 2 seasons.

There is plenty of debate in other topics about the worth and value of the league itself, but I think for now we need to accept that the ASB Premiership is being treated as a development league, and I for one am more interested in seeing young guys get exposure than worrying too much who wins the thing.

November 19, 2013 19:36
reg22
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i'm much more in favour of this concept now than i was when it was announced

the franchise is doing many things well on the pitch, they have improved the standard of the league

i'm still pissed at youngheart being thrown out as a result of some rather convenient new criteria

November 19, 2013 19:52
Tegal
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As for the $65k, forgive me if I have this wrong...but wouldn't that effectively be NZF paying itself $65k? Seems like a bit of a moot (and immature) point to get pissed off about? 

November 19, 2013 20:21
Buffon II
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Tegal wrote:

As for the $65k, forgive me if I have this wrong...but wouldn't that effectively be NZF paying itself $65k? Seems like a bit of a moot (and immature) point to get pissed off about? 


That's what i assumed would be the case.
November 19, 2013 20:24
VimFuego
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Not that stupid a point when players (senior and junior) contribute through levies to have their regional team in the league, only for one other team to get a free ride. 

November 19, 2013 20:38
Buffon II
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VimFuego wrote:

Not that stupid a point when players (senior and junior) contribute through levies to have their regional team in the league, only for one other team to get a free ride. 


Who should pay for them then?
November 19, 2013 20:43
Tegal
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VimFuego wrote:

Not that stupid a point when players (senior and junior) contribute through levies to have their regional team in the league, only for one other team to get a free ride. 

So you'd be happy if they transferred $65k from one of their accounts to another one of their accounts? Or would a simple accounting entry that says they paid themselves $65k do? 
November 19, 2013 20:47
Tegal
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You'd have a decent point if they'd raised the entry fee by $7000ish for the purposes of covering the $65 lost by having their own team in the competition over YHW. But I don't believe that's the case? 

November 19, 2013 20:52 · Edited November 19, 2013 20:53
Fan
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You can argue both sides around the merits of having Wanderers in the league. My personal view is that they shouldn't be in the league, the best young players should be playing in other franchises

My biggest concern is why should they be excused from paying the $65 entry fee. I know for a fact that a number of franchises have been threatened to be kicked out of the league for not paying the entry fee which in some provincial towns very hard to raise each year. I feel sorry for Manawatu because they worked tirelessly to raise the entry fee money each year and then Wanderers get in free

The question is will Wanderers be eligible to receive the approx amount of $30k from the World club championship. NZF already receive approx $100k already so you add the Wanderers share they get $130k. This is derespecful for other franchise sponsors and funding trusts

NzF have not invested in the ASB premiership for a number of years and now all of a sudden they fund there own team probably from the other teams franchises entry fee money



November 19, 2013 20:57
Tegal
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But how are they supposed to pay themselves money?

That obvious logical flaw aside, You could loosely argue that they are paying the $65k by losing YHMs (or any other 10th teams) entry fee

November 19, 2013 21:00
Buffon II
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The team is a sole NZF entity.

The entry fee is covered by NZF.

Any CWC money goes to NZF.


Surely people can understand this.

November 19, 2013 21:00
reg22
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Buffon II wrote:

The team is a sole NZF entity.

The entry fee is covered by NZF.

Any CWC money goes to NZF.


Surely people can understand this.



because the league is run by NZF, i'm afraid that this is actually fair

in an ideal world, wanderers would pay a fee to enter the league to the league management company and that fee would transparently go towards the promotion/running of the league

in other words, even NZF would have to pay to have a team in the league

of course we all know that these fees go straight to the revenue line in NZF's books and are used to run the sport in this country, as they are by statute entitled to do of course.

this is why i have been advocating for the league to be a separate entity run by representatives of the franchises and NZF as well as independent appointees.
November 19, 2013 21:32 · Edited November 19, 2013 21:33
Tegal
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Yep that's a fair call. 

Though obviously that means the issue is more with the fee itself, and how it's spent, rather than any ridiculous anger about Wanderers 'not paying a fee' 

November 19, 2013 21:39
reg22
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yeah, i think that is the case

they've valued the league at a certain entry fee.  the question is what value does this give the franchise?  i have no idea what sort of thing this should cover - website, refs, etc?

if i buy a kfc franchise tomorrow, what does my annual franchise fee get me?

November 19, 2013 21:46
Ronaldoknow
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Tegal wrote:
VimFuego wrote:

Not that stupid a point when players (senior and junior) contribute through levies to have their regional team in the league, only for one other team to get a free ride. 

So you'd be happy if they transferred $65k from one of their accounts to another one of their accounts? Or would a simple accounting entry that says they paid themselves $65k do? 

No, they shouldn't be in there, it's not justified under any circumstances. It bastardizes the whole competition.
November 19, 2013 21:49
Tegal
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@reg22: can certainly sympathise with that. You'd think the entry fee would serve some sort of purpose that helps run the league. 

November 19, 2013 21:51 · Edited November 19, 2013 21:51
reg22
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Ronaldoknow wrote:
Tegal wrote:
VimFuego wrote:

Not that stupid a point when players (senior and junior) contribute through levies to have their regional team in the league, only for one other team to get a free ride. 

So you'd be happy if they transferred $65k from one of their accounts to another one of their accounts? Or would a simple accounting entry that says they paid themselves $65k do? 

No, they shouldn't be in there, it's not justified under any circumstances. It bastardizes the whole competition.


what if they were set up like the western sydney wanderers?  except with an age restriction?  would that make the team more valid?
November 19, 2013 21:51
Ronaldoknow
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reg22 wrote:

yeah, i think that is the case

they've valued the league at a certain entry fee.  the question is what value does this give the franchise?  i have no idea what sort of thing this should cover - website, refs, etc?

if i buy a kfc franchise tomorrow, what does my annual franchise fee get me?

Good question, it excludes the franchisor setting up their own wholly owned outlet in direct competition with yours for a starter.
November 19, 2013 21:54
Buffon II
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Ronaldoknow wrote:
Tegal wrote:
VimFuego wrote:

Not that stupid a point when players (senior and junior) contribute through levies to have their regional team in the league, only for one other team to get a free ride. 

So you'd be happy if they transferred $65k from one of their accounts to another one of their accounts? Or would a simple accounting entry that says they paid themselves $65k do? 

No, they shouldn't be in there, it's not justified under any circumstances. It bastardizes the whole competition.


They look better than YHM.


Therefore, they add more to the league.


They should also make the league more competitive, which is what we are striving for apparently (in all seriousness it would be a good thing)


At the moment they are proving their worth.


Deal with it.

November 19, 2013 21:55 · Edited November 19, 2013 21:55
reg22
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Ronaldoknow wrote:
reg22 wrote:

yeah, i think that is the case

they've valued the league at a certain entry fee.  the question is what value does this give the franchise?  i have no idea what sort of thing this should cover - website, refs, etc?

if i buy a kfc franchise tomorrow, what does my annual franchise fee get me?

Good question, it excludes the franchisor setting up their own wholly owned outlet in direct competition with yours for a starter.


damn good point!
November 19, 2013 21:58
Ronaldoknow
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reg22 wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:
Tegal wrote:
VimFuego wrote:

Not that stupid a point when players (senior and junior) contribute through levies to have their regional team in the league, only for one other team to get a free ride. 

So you'd be happy if they transferred $65k from one of their accounts to another one of their accounts? Or would a simple accounting entry that says they paid themselves $65k do? 

No, they shouldn't be in there, it's not justified under any circumstances. It bastardizes the whole competition.


what if they were set up like the western sydney wanderers?  except with an age restriction?  would that make the team more valid?
Completely different proposition, you didn't see Football Australia entering the Olyroos or similar in the A League did you? They have more respect for and a better understanding of the place their premier competition serves as a shop window.
November 19, 2013 21:58
Buffon II
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Ronaldoknow wrote:
Completely different proposition, you didn't see Football Australia entering the Olyroos or similar in the A League did you? They have more respect for and a better understanding of the place their premier competition serves as a shop window.

The A-League is going from strength to strength though. The ASBP is tearing at the seams.
November 19, 2013 22:00
reg22
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Ronaldoknow wrote:
reg22 wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:
Tegal wrote:
VimFuego wrote:

Not that stupid a point when players (senior and junior) contribute through levies to have their regional team in the league, only for one other team to get a free ride. 

So you'd be happy if they transferred $65k from one of their accounts to another one of their accounts? Or would a simple accounting entry that says they paid themselves $65k do? 

No, they shouldn't be in there, it's not justified under any circumstances. It bastardizes the whole competition.


what if they were set up like the western sydney wanderers?  except with an age restriction?  would that make the team more valid?
Completely different proposition, you didn't see Football Australia entering the Olyroos or similar in the A League did you? They have more respect for and a better understanding of the place their premier competition serves as a shop window.


i fully appreciate your point

i was livid when this whole thing was announced

i've softened now, but can't get over the fact that there's just no identity to this whole thing.  no crowds apart from mum and dad, no local promotion, no places up for grabs, no quality imports.  it's a glorified training camp.
November 19, 2013 22:03
Tegal
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Yeah I also keep swinging back and forth on it. 

I can see the advantages of it. But also as you guys have said, it cheapens the competition somewhat. 

November 19, 2013 22:05
Ronaldoknow
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Buffon II wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:
Tegal wrote:
VimFuego wrote:

Not that stupid a point when players (senior and junior) contribute through levies to have their regional team in the league, only for one other team to get a free ride. 

So you'd be happy if they transferred $65k from one of their accounts to another one of their accounts? Or would a simple accounting entry that says they paid themselves $65k do? 

No, they shouldn't be in there, it's not justified under any circumstances. It bastardizes the whole competition.


They look better than YHM.


Therefore, they add more to the league.


They should also make the league more competitive, which is what we are striving for apparently (in all seriousness it would be a good thing)


At the moment they are proving their worth.


Deal with it.

Look, this is not about the U20's proving their worth, or whether they're more competitive than the team they've replaced. It's about the value of the ASB premiership to football in NZ. As someone who has seen first hand the time and energy spent chasing funding and the elusive sponsors dollar to try and be competitive it doesn't help bring dollars through the door when the entry your trying desperately to fund runs the risk of having their pants pulled down by a junior team owned and operated by the franchisor solely for their own benefit. That's a reality and that's what I'm dealing with and that's why every franchise is opposed to it.
November 19, 2013 22:11
VimFuego
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And I feel that peoples opinions are tainted by the fact they have had a couple of good results in the first few weeks. What if they go to shit from here? Would you feel the same way?  And whose to say the Nelson team, or any other team wanting to enter wouldn't have improved the quality either. 

I'm sure Manawatu won a few games at some point in their history.

November 19, 2013 22:12
Buffon II
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VimFuego wrote:

And I feel that peoples opinions are tainted by the fact they have had a couple of good results in the first few weeks. What if they go to shit from here? Would you feel the same way?  And whose to say the Nelson team, or any other team wanting to enter wouldn't have improved the quality either. 

I'm sure Manawatu won a few games at some point in their history.


Depends how many pro contracts they get at the end of it.
November 19, 2013 22:14
Jeff Vader
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Ronaldoknow wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:
Tegal wrote:
VimFuego wrote:

Not that stupid a point when players (senior and junior) contribute through levies to have their regional team in the league, only for one other team to get a free ride. 

So you'd be happy if they transferred $65k from one of their accounts to another one of their accounts? Or would a simple accounting entry that says they paid themselves $65k do? 

No, they shouldn't be in there, it's not justified under any circumstances. It bastardizes the whole competition.


They look better than YHM.


Therefore, they add more to the league.


They should also make the league more competitive, which is what we are striving for apparently (in all seriousness it would be a good thing)


At the moment they are proving their worth.


Deal with it.

Look, this is not about the U20's proving their worth, or whether they're more competitive than the team they've replaced. It's about the value of the ASB premiership to football in NZ. As someone who has seen first hand the time and energy spent chasing funding and the elusive sponsors dollar to try and be competitive it doesn't help bring dollars through the door when the entry your trying desperately to fund runs the risk of having their pants pulled down by a junior team owned and operated by the franchisor solely for their own benefit. That's a reality and that's what I'm dealing with and that's why every franchise is opposed to it.
If this is happening (and it will) then the problem is not with the kids being there, its with the quality of your franchise. Do you blame the ACFC franchise when they kick your ass?
November 19, 2013 22:23
Tegal
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Haha bit of irony there JV considering the discussion in the TW thread. 

November 19, 2013 22:26
Buffon II
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Tegal wrote:

Haha bit of irony there JV considering the discussion in the TW thread. 


Been some cracking discussions in this section of the forums the past few days. Will miss it when i return to work tomorrow.
November 19, 2013 22:27
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