What if the national league was it?

Now I know some will accuse me of taking a liberty in bringing up this thought on the YF forum but what about this for a scenario? I thought I'd give it a go just to see the interest/response. (Thinks - puts on tin hat and gets under the desk).

If NZ didn't have a team in the A League (costing I guess a couple of million dollars a year) and instead half that outlay was sunk into the domestic national league each season, half as subsidy to make it a more level playing field and half as prizemoney for achievement on the field - would NZ football overall be better off in the long run? If the national league was elevated to eight sides/franchises of a quality of ACFC what a great competition that would be, It could step out of the shadow of being an "amateur" competition and officially officially embrace being a bona fide semi-professional comp. Surely that would attract sponsors and the football public. Without an A League side to dazzle them NZF would then have to focus on its own domestic competition rather than treat it as an afterthought.

The added bonus is the O League and the Fifa Club World Cup which in turn would bring up to $800,000 back into the competition should a NZ side win the O League. My guess is an annual investment of $1 million would revolutionize the NL (with the O League prizemoney as a bonus) and that would be substantially less than it is costing Welnix to keep the Nix in the A League. If Welnix only want to finance TW then surely other sponsors can be found for the rest of the franchises.

If NZ players weren't classified as imports in the A League (like the other codes) then there would be ample opportunity for good NZ players to graduate from a robust and competitive NZ national league into the professional ranks of the Australian sides or move to Europe. If say 6-8 NZers played in the A League and a similar number for European/UK sides (as now) then that would be the foundation of the All Whites squad, with our top half dozen domestic national league players thrown in.

I believe with proper investment and promotion teams like TW and HBU and CU could be playing in front of home crowds up to 2,000 and the NL would attract media/TV interest. A very competitive NL would be a very important stepping stone for the best players to move on to professional teams overseas.

Instead we're currently caught between two stools. We have an A League side that is struggling to be competitive and isn't allowed to enter the reserve competition or ACL but is soaking up most of the money and attention and a sadly neglected ASBP which is dominated by one side which is keeping the competition alive (by winning the O league). To be honest, neither is working properly and I know which I'd rather see being the dominant one and I think NZ football overall would be the better for it.

What money is the phoenix soaking up that would magically revitalise the ASBP?

Are you offering to fund an entire NZ national league Frank Lowy style? 

You don't think the ASBP already acts as a stepping stone for players to move on to a professional team, and that the phoenix are a great bridge between ASBP and a potential pro career overseas? Or even just a further option for kiwis to become professional?

I think we have the best of both worlds with the current set up. 

Yes, it would also be nice if the ASBP was better funded outside of ACFC (which is only funded by dodgy pokie money, like everyone else)

Also, how would welnix funding TW magically mean sponsors will come forward for other franchises?

You also say if welnix spent half of $2million on the national league instead of the phoenix it'd be all fixed. $1mill / 8 franchises = $125000 per franchise. Say you want to use that to pay players, $125000 / 20 = $6250 per player. Hardly enough money to turn it into anything significantly better than it currently is, and certainly not enough to justify giving up the phoenix. 

I'd prefer the best of both worlds scenario we have currently. 

My question is would we be better to concentrate all our resources on the national league (including the women's league) rather than trying to do both, with most spending currently being on the A League side? Personally I think if $1 million was spent each season by sponsors/NZF/Welnix on a semi-pro NL, by adding in the O League prizemoney, it would give each franchise a decent financial baseline. Double that to $2 million (which shouldn't be beyond NZ football) and we'd have a really robust competitive NL.

As it is we have neither a robust competitive NL nor a top flight A League side which is allowed to play in the ACL or have a proper reserve side. I don't see that as the best of both worlds at all. Both are in fact hamstrung.

One by lack of NZF interest and overall resources and the other by FFA restrictions and lack of enough finance to truly compete with the really big A League franchises like MV or BR. For this 6-8 Kiwis get to play professionally with the Nix.

My suggestion is we funnel all this spending instead into the domestic NL and put pressure on FFA to lift the restriction on NZers being classified as imports when playing in the A League. That to me would be the best of both worlds. 

shitist thread ever

So many logic gaps in there I'm not sure where to start. And not sure if I should

1) Why would Welnix put $1m into prize money and $1m into each franchise? What return do they get? Sweet F all is the answer. Given the only real prizemoney is the CWC, they'd be losing more than they currently are. 

2) Kiwis are classified as foreigners, and that won't change. Ever. So irrelevant point. So you'd have the dozen kiwi players in the phoenix playing 14 games a season. Not great for their development, or the performance of the All Whites.

3) I think you forget that we are a small nation of 4 million where most sports struggle to get any spotlight (and money) away from Rugby. The sponsorship, the TV coverage, and the general interest just isn't there. Given crowd numbers are falling across all codes, why do you think that somehow you could get 2,000 people attending games. Phoenix themselves have said that marketing doesn't add much to their crowd. So why would it be any different for the ASBP.

So you're just ignoring glaring problems with anything you said that I pointed out. Cool. So I'm just going to leave them there, rather than repeat them. But we may as well keep the phoenix, its not worth disposing of just to give 8 franchises a little pocket money that isn't even enough to do anything practical with. 

It would be good for us if kiwis weren't imports in the A league, yes. But why on earth would the FFA agree to this? Especially if the nix aren't even in the comp. And even if they somehow did, we still may as well have the phoenix in the comp AND have kiwis as locals in australia. 

this thread just seems like the same old shit you spurn out on numerous other threads that youve started over time. 

Bluemagic needs some new material. Been repeating the same shit since 2009.

Ironic thing is that if the Phoenix didn't exist, this forum wouldn't exist, so Bluemagic would have no platform to give him a voice. 

No Patrick, you don't get it. Welnix would fund forums for each and every franchise. Or sponsors like the TAB would come on board, and fund activities for 2000 members to have a forum at each franchise across the country. 

All it would cost to fund this entire national league and subsequent forums is half of what it costs to fund the phoenix per year. 

You need to take more drugs and wear more tinfoil hats Patrick, then you'll understand. 

Despite all the negativity I think this is actually a very big issue. Currently we spread the investment in NZ football across two very different formats and neither is particularly successful. What I'm suggesting is we concentrate everything on one or the other and make it work.

We're spending upwards of $3 million a year on the Phoenix and keeping the ASBP on life support. The end result is six to eight Kiwis get to be professionals and ACFC goes to the CWC.The question I ask is this the best way to do it? Is this the best bang for the buck for developing NZ football? Should we invest much more and have a robust and competitive semi-pro NL or should we pour everything into a competitive NZ A League franchises and drop the idea of a NL? At the moment the Phoenix are struggling on the field which is losing fans, and losing money and the ASBP is a shadow of what it should be (other than ACFC which concentrates on the O League and CWC).

I really think we need to sort this out rather than just muddle through each season.

you ignored everything again and now its $3million is it? 

How do you plan on replacing all the pokies money? What Welnix spends on the Phoenix won't replace what is lost. And there is nothing saying they would even bother to spend their money on a National League. If it wasn't for the Phoenix, they wouldn't be involved in football at all.

If NZF were putting $5 million (I can arbritrarily increase dollar amounts too, just like Bluemagic!) into the Phoenix, then you might have a point. But they aren't. Private businessmen have invested in something they see as worthwhile for whatever reason. It's their money, they've earned it, they can do whatever the fuck they want with it. 

I didn't ignore, I simply asked a straight forward question. The $3 million comes from estimates of about $2 million spent on the Phoenix (maybe it's more) and about $1 million all in on the ASBP (if you include O League prizemoney).

Either we have a well financed fully competitive NZ A League side which is allowed to compete in the ACL and reserve league or we have a robust and competitive NL? Currently we have neither. I'm not saying Wellnix should finance the NL, I'm saying if we concentrate on either option then NZF must pull its finger out and lead the charge.

We're currently spreading spending over two very different competitions and neither is working properly. Some of you need to think outside the box which is all I'm trying to do. If we don't sort this out there's a danger both will fail in the long run. Another couple of seasons of bottom three and dwindling crowds for the Nix and more money lost may well have Wellnix pull the plug. Likewise another ASBP season where many franchises struggle to stay afloat leaving ACFC to dominate isn't good either.

I really believe sticking your head in the sand and saying it's the best of both worlds doesn't help. 

But if we do "fix" it, then there's an even greater chance that either getting rid of the Phoenix or the ASB Prem will kill off football in this country. 

I don't believe that it needs fixing in the way you think it needs fixing. Yes, the ASB Prem isn't perfect at the moment and there is definitely room for improvement, but getting rid of the Phoenix in the hope that the Welnix guys or other rich businessmen will invest money into the ASB is a stupid idea.

If football in NZ could be killed by incompetance or idiocy , itd have been dead several times ...its rising it up is the trick ....

Except your box is on another planet. six galaxies away.

Pretty sure everyone apart from the knitting brigade would choose the A-league. Close the thread now.

Shall we open it again at the end of another season when the Nix finish in the bottom three (I like Merrick but the franchise is under-funded when the A League is booming overall), crowds dwindle and it loses money while the ASBP struggles on with ACFC sweeping all and keeping the life support on by winning the O League? Or should we just keep our heads in the sand and not ask any hard questions?

Who has their head in the sand?

I do notice that when you were writing articles about how important the Kingz were for New Zealand football in Metro you didn't advocate this position Wayward...  amazing how for some the Kingz were the future of New Zealand football but the Phoenix (who have had more success and much more engagement with the sporting public of New Zealand) are killing it.

I wonder what the difference is?

I think that's what they call "Game, Set and Match - Hard News" right there.

Heh ....paper trail  Captain !

Well played BM but you're banging your head against a brick wall here. 

You're points are valid and 2015 could be a springboard for your ideas leveraging off the U20 WC to promote the local teams like Southern Utd in Dunedin TW in Wellington etc...

Makes way too much sense though... Next time fax your ideas Terry Van Serrepossum and Gareth Herbert

One is never allowed to change opinions?

Oh one is, but whats the driver for that opinion change in this case? You don't just wake up one day and go "I think I'll start dressing like a woman" 

Yet you did ?

Newcastle united vs southern united. 

West ham united vs team Wellington. 

Yeah right. 

We'd all have to move over to the ACFC fans' forum. No posts for 3 months.

http://www.atomicboards.com/board.pl

No one should be interested in watching the non NZ games though. Maybe leverage off the NZ game in Welli. Or flag hosting and give the $ to the FFA as a bribe to change the import policy.

To be fair , no ones told us what's acceptable for us too write there....

The point I was making that he is allowed to change his mind but how is it that (as Hard News states) that the Kingz could do no wrong but the Phoenix are the downfall of everything. The situation then and now are near identical. I was just interested to let him speak and educate me on the reasons why/how things have changed from his perspective.

Okay, can't believe I'm going to do this, but let's try it one step at a time.

Alright. Point one. Delete the Nix, and replace with better funded ASB Premiership.

My questions:

1. What gives you confidence that the money the WelNix currently invest into the Wellington Phoenix would be redirected into the ASBP?

2. Where do you get your numbers from? I believe the Nix lost a moderate six figure sum of money last season. Do you know something I don't? Don't forget the A League has revenues as well as costs.

3. Setting aside question 2, what gives you confidence that two million dollars spread around 8 franchises would make a big difference? That's $12.5k per player in a squad of 20 assuming overheads are covered by other revenues. Not heaps is it?

Answer to those, and we can move on to the next cluster of factual randomness.

I don't think anyone needed to. The obvious answer is 'nothing' and that is exactly what gets written.

But if not for the Phoenix that board would be pumping.

Probably true ...

 

I remember GoalNet...the mail group what came before the Fever...it was not what you would call "pumping".

What you would call " pumping " may well be against my religion ....

I must find a better religion ...

At least you're trying Smithy. I agree, I know it's a big ask but if everything was focused on the NL, including NZF attention, then I believe it would be possible raise in excess of $1 million and the O League brings in another $800,000 or so. Given that is actually costs about $45,000 per franchise in travel costs (NZF pockets about $20,000 of the $65,000 entry fee for alleged "promotion") the basic cost of having a NL is about $350,000. A budget of say $1.8 million (with O League money) would leave close to $1.5 million spread amongst eight franchises, aside from gate money etc. If it did turn out to be $12k per player I believe that would be enough to make it semi-pro.

As for what's spent on the Phoenix, I don't know the actual figures, do you? I've been told it's loss last season was about $1 million based on the fact that average crowds in Wellington were well below break even. If that's true is it a case that Welnix are trying to keep their loss down rather than investing heavily to build the crowd up? I like Merrick and appreciate he inherited a jaded club, but is his budget enough for him to really compete with the big boys? If not, then what are the prospects and for how long will Welnix endure these losses? Frankly, the Nix have to make the top four for the Wellington crowds to break 10,000 - do you think that's going to happen after two seasons of not doing it? If so then lets throw everything behind the Nix and try and make them truly competitive - and that means removing FFA's bullshit ban on them qualifying for the lucrative ACL or being able to participate in the youth league.  

Lets be honest, the ASBP is in pretty bad shape outside of ACFC, CU and HBU. Even TW are down to playing in front of a handful of spectators at Dave Farrington Park. Southern United are hardly competitive and watched by few, WaiBop don't even have a home and Waitakere are a shadow of their former self. You'll be lucky to get 100 to watch them at Fred Taylor Paddock this season, which is a real shame because the Auckland derbies used to have atmosphere and bite. NZF has so little interest it's just using the ASBP, which ACFC is keeping alive, as a training ground for the Nix reserves and Under 20 fringe players. It's not even in reasonable shape frankly.

So as I say - neither is working properly. We're muddling through each season. Something has to give.