General Football Discussion

Final "Violence"

87 replies · 24,072 views
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The Dutch aren't the first team to use this tactic to try beat a more skillful team and won't be the last.
Sometimes it works.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Cantona forever wrote:

If Xavi and Iniesta are so utterly dominant by a long long way why haven't Barcelona won the Champions League and La Liga every one of the last four years?�


Where's the facepalm emoticon again?

Clearly then Maradona was a rubbish player. Only one won World Cup and one Serie A title. FFS.

Xavi and Iniesta will go down in football history as one of the finest midfield tandems ever to grace a football field. If you don't like that, tough. You clearly don't know enough about football for your opinion to matter much anyway.

Yeah, feel free to remember the England - Germany game. My enduring memory of that game is that lump Terry jogging around like he'd never been on a football field. They guy's barely fit to play Central League, but noooo, apparently amatuer mistakes like that in a World Cup are a sign of great quality of football. If that's what you're after, I recommend watching Capital 16. You'll see plenty of 'attractive' football there. Coz watching and appreciating the game played at the highest level clearly ain't for you.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
And more stats.

This Spanish side is, according the Elo Ratings, the third greatest team of all time.

Here are the top 10

Rank     Nation     Points     Date
1      Hungary     2166     30 June 1954
2      Brazil             2153     17 June 1962
3      Spain             2140     11 July 2010
4      Argentina     2117     3 April 1957
5      France             2106     15 August 2001
6      Netherlands     2100     6 July 2010
7      Germany     2099     4 September 1974 (as West Germany)
8      Italy             2079     20 July 1939
9      Poland             2046     1 September 1974
10      England     2041     22 October 1966

This Spain side equaled the world record of undefeated games before losing to USA in the confed cup last year, share it with the Magical Magyars. In 4 years they have lost twice in 50+ games and only drawn a handful of others.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Bullion wrote:
Spain had more shots at the WC than any other team. 19 more than Germany, almost 3 more per game. Of the QF teams, Ghana had the highest shots per game at 20.
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statistics/teams/attacking.html
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statistics/teams/shots.html
 
Nice stats. They should average those to per game stats for ease of comparisons. On a shots per game basis:
1 Ghana 20.20 2 Argentina 19.00 3 Brazil 17.80 4 Spain 17.29 5 USA 17.25 6 Italy 16.33 6 Cameroon 16.33 8 England 16.25 9 Chile 16.00 10 Korea Republic 15.50 11 Serbia 15.00 12 Uruguay 14.57 12 Germany 14.57 14 C�te d'Ivoire 14.33 15 Denmark 14.00 16 Portugal 13.75 17 France 13.67 17 Algeria 13.67 19 South Africa 13.33 19 Greece 13.33 21 Netherlands 13.29 22 Mexico 13.25 23 Paraguay 12.60 24 Australia 11.67 25 Japan 11.50 26 Korea DPR 11.33 27 Nigeria 10.67 27 Switzerland 10.67 29 Slovakia 10.25 30 Slovenia 9.00 31 Honduras 8.00 32 New Zealand 5.00
 
SiNZ2010-07-13 13:08:08
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie = sense

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I stopped reading when he said 'maybe De Jong should have been sent off'.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
EG, I could try and address your comments but what would be the point?  You miss the subtlety of what I put forward, and attack, Usta�e-like, on the basis of what you think I mean.  The blog link posted above was an excellent article - but not black and white enough for you.  I hope you enjoy the day you have your first original thought.
Selhurst Park, 25 January 1995
What else could he have done?
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Cantona forever wrote:
EG, I could try and address your comments but what would be the point?� You miss the subtlety of what I put forward, and attack, Usta�e-like, on the basis of what you think I mean.� The blog link posted above was an excellent article - but not black and white enough for you.� I hope you enjoy the day you have your first original thought.


It was a bollocks article - like I said, there's a difference between playing an effective high pressure game (Paraguay) and what the Dutch did. If you can't see that, then that's your problem.

Oh, yes, Za Dom Spremni and all that.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Cantona forever wrote:
EG, I could try and address your comments but what would be the point?� You miss the subtlety of what I put forward, and attack, Usta�e-like, on the basis of what you think I mean.� The blog link posted above was an excellent article - but not black and white enough for you.� I hope you enjoy the day you have your first original thought.


It was a bollocks article - like I said, there's a difference between playing an effective high pressure game (Paraguay) and what the Dutch did. If you can't see that, then that's your problem.

Oh, yes, Za Dom Spremni and all that.
Your just bitter. VB made 4 fouls in the game, all attempts to get the ball, hardly a thug. Yet Spain rolled around asking for yellows, did exactly the same thing as the Dutch when needed, and were guilty of the only off ball incident in the game.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I could feel the Spanish frustration, constantly kicked, lots of professional fouls to slow the play, and wasn't surprised to see their reaction to the negativity. They obviously felt the ref was being soft on the Dutch. Imagine if the ref who reffed the Germany/Serbia game reffed this game. Probably would have ended the game with 10 Spanish players and about 6/7 Dutch players.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Cantona forever wrote:

El-Nino, I think your (relative) youth is coming to the fore here.  This Spanish team is a good team but I wouldn't rate it against the 1986 Argentina team, the 1982 Brazil team, the 1998 France team and so on.  In terms of simulation they come close to the 1990 German team though!  My point is simple: Xavi and Iniesta may be good players, but they are not great.  They are not players who can take a game by the (metaphorical) scruff of the neck and boss it single-handedly (note I am not talking as a team, but single-handedly).  Great players can.  In a way I think Spain were fortunate to be in a tournament with waning teams (France, Italy, England), defensively naive teams (Argentina, Uruguay), and (perhaps) one-dimensional teams (Holland, Brazil).  My team of the tournament was Germany because they played beautiful football.  Football that was exciting, enthusiastic, fair, and determined.  They played with attacking intent and desire.  This is the type of football most fans want to see succeed.  They scored and immediately tried to score again.

I think the quality of individual play at this tournament has been disappointing.  None of the expected big stars fired (Rooney, Ronaldo, Messi, Torres) and while I accept Muller and Forlan were really excellent, I don't accept that Sneijder or Villa were exceptional.  Maybe they stood out due to the absence of great football from others.

My take on a lot of the analysis of the World Cup is that a lot of people regurgitate the views of journalists who have an agenda before the game is even played.  The people determined to praise Ronaldo (three man-of-the-match awards!), Messi, Xavi etc etc irrespective of what they do.  A lot of football fans also seem determined to show how clever they are by repeating these same pronouncements.  I just call the games the way I see them - not trying to score points by mentioning the important names ("must praise Xavi, Iniesta, Villa").  Instead, I thought one of the best players for Spain was Ramos, and of course Navas when he came on and actually played football!  Modern football is all about image - and the desire to idolise Rooney, Torres, Messi, Ronaldo blinds people to the reality.  For example Ronaldo was nowhere near the best Portugese player - let alone a man of the match winner.

If you are really Spanish (but a fan of the Wellington Phoenix?) then I'm sure you'll enjoy your triumph.  God knows Spain needs something in light of financial events in that country.  But the truth is the team is not exceptional, resorts to simulation, and acts in a most unsporting manner in an attempt to influence referees and gain advantage.  You're welcome to the trophy on those terms.  This is the 9th World Cup I've watched (albeit I only saw the final in 1978) and I don't rate Spain as one of the better teams or better winners in those 9 final series.
 
See, I never saw that Argentina side of 1986. But what I've heard is that Maradona pulled an average team to win the tournament, and pulled them to the final again in 1990. Based purely on his incredible ability and desire. For me, that doesn't sound anything like this side. Xavi and Iniesta are great players. Did you see against Paraguay? Iniesta did win us the match. And this is surely just one example. Did you see Real Madrid 2-6 Barcelona? Xavi set up about 4 of the goals. So I don't really understand what you're saying. Well, you can only play what is in front of you, no? And what EG said in response to your wankfest over Germany.
 
Yeah, I agree, Ronaldo was terrible all tournament and no way deserves any MOTM awards. Torres looked like he'd never kicked a ball in his life. Van Persie, Rooney, Anelka etc etc.  Yeah, I'll agree with that. Maybe Villa not so much, but I don't think he was outstanding as has been suggested.
 
I assume you're talking about Navas' game in the Final, not the tournament?? And yeah, you will notice what I said about Ramos too (where did he suddenly learn to defend?) after the game. But I guess praising San Iker because he has been the best keeper in the world is just media bollocks too then?
 
And we are welcome to the trophy because we have earned it and been the best team in the world not only for this month, but for the last three years. So, say what you like. We are champions, and we deserve to be. Yes, Spain needs this so much right now. But don't talk down to us. The entire 23 man squad are all heroes. And maybe if someone had actually attacked them, this team would be considered one of the best of all time.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Michael wrote:
Frankie = sense

 
Just out of interest, do you have some cousin who is a Real Madrid fan or something?
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Some of my observations...
The Dutch did kick the sh*t out of Spain..
Webb maintained compuser... top effort..
Spain were starting to show stress and pleading for bookings.. getting pissed with Van Bommel
The beach ball didnt help the tournament.. was crap and summed up when the bounce on a soft pitch deceived one of the best keepers in the world.
Spain didn't score enough quality goals to be memorable.. Amazing that a team could win the tournament with a passenger in the forward line..
Spain could muscle up when required..
Germany reminded me of Brazil in 82.. fell at the final hurdle but some great football on the way..
NIKE has no history.. The Michael Jordan marketing was a big flop, has anyone told them Football is a team sport..
Bring back Admiral Kits and Patrick boots
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Dino10 wrote:
The beach ball didnt help the tournament.. was crap and summed up when the bounce on a soft pitch deceived one of the best keepers in the world.
 
Actually on that, I noticed that the commentators stopped describing at as light after the first week. Do you think someone pointed out it is only 5 grammes lighter than the maximum permitted weight for a match ball? I wonder if a lighter ball might have had less issues with the high bounces, particularly at the high altitude matches?
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
this thread has been a quality read throughout my work day, heaps of you have made great arguments for both sides despite the majority being tinged with bias towards own team...
 
Anyways, it has been somewhat satisfying as an arsenal fan to see people whinging about constant fouling against your side that plays a possession-based passing game.
 
Cmon people, where are all the old chestnuts?
 
If the dutch had won we'd be talking about how spain are soft and invite a lot of fouls because of the way they play...?
 
But seriously lets be fair, there is no other way to beat spain (or barca) other than to press very hard. The dutch could never have gone out there thinking they could dominate possession and create more chances than spain.Pressing hard doesnt have to involve badly timed tackles but that is often the result if you've got a defensive mid who is all effort but lacking that crucial yard of pace......
 
 
 
 
 
 
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SiNZ wrote:
Dino10 wrote:
The beach ball didnt help the tournament.. was crap and summed up when the bounce on a soft pitch deceived one of the best keepers in the world.
 
Actually on that, I noticed that the commentators stopped describing at as light after the first week. Do you think someone pointed out it is only 5 grammes lighter than the maximum permitted weight for a match ball? I wonder if a lighter ball might have had less issues with the high bounces, particularly at the high altitude matches?
 
the ball was not technically lighter but gave the impression that it was due to whatever technology they created that made it fly...
 
if you slow down a replay of one of the many 'beckham style' freekicks that soared into row z, you can actually recognise the point where a normal ball in any other game would start to curve back down - with this ball it never happened, it just kept soaring skyward pretty much every time!
 
 
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie Mac wrote:

 
What are other people's view on this - I am hoping that it will be slightly more impartial than what you get here (where everyone follows what they read in the Sun).


Try something other than a red top then!!
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe. 
20/5/20

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
paulm wrote:
SiNZ wrote:
Dino10 wrote:
The beach ball didnt help the tournament.. was crap and summed up when the bounce on a soft pitch deceived one of the best keepers in the world.
 
Actually on that, I noticed that the commentators stopped describing at as light after the first week. Do you think someone pointed out it is only 5 grammes lighter than the maximum permitted weight for a match ball? I wonder if a lighter ball might have had less issues with the high bounces, particularly at the high altitude matches?
 
the ball was not technically lighter but gave the impression that it was due to whatever technology they created that made it fly...
 
 
Can you be non-technically lighter? Is that like the excuse you try with the police - I was only technically speeding officer?
 
They used a similar thing on the Euro2008 ball, goose bumps that have now evolved into grooves. As a (retired) keeper, I really like the feel of the jabulani - excellent for grip. Haven't faced the flight or bounce of it though. They're available in the Adidas shop in Willis St.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Scientists have said the controversial World Cup Jabulani football is far from perfect, 20 days after the tournament�s start.

Puzzled experts have concluded that the Jabulani ball may simply be too round to fly straight.

Part of the problem may be that �the stitches of the Jabulani are internal, so the ball resembles a perfect sphere�, said Eric Berton, deputy director of the Institute of the Science of Movement in Marseille, France.

�Because of the shape, the time of contact with the foot is reduced. As a consequence, it practically doesn�t spin. The ball travels a little less far, and will have a floating and unpredictable trajectory, whether for a striker or a goalkeeper,� Berton added.

Wind-tunnel tests conducted by Kazuya Seo of Yamagata and Takeshi Asai University in Tsukuba also found that the machine-made Jabulani was close to a perfect sphere, and has a tendency to slow suddenly in mid-flight - a disconcerting characteristic for footballers."

I remember seeing a science documentary on footballs several years back, which also claimed that the more perfect the sphere the greater its movement in trajectory. Sounds like quantum mechanics!
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
We played with a Jabulani on Sunday. I played well. Therefore it is a good ball. Case closed.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
But were you wearing Nike boots?
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Good thread, although slightly highjacked by the Jabulani debate at the end.
 
To add some more of my thoughts on the matter, it seems to me that the Van Bommell hatred started before kick off due to what happened in the previous games - the consistant fouling without any bookings.  It then meant that the first foul (slide in on Puyol) which was a nothing foul in a nothing area of the field had people screaming that he should be booked.  Absolute rubbish.  The second foul was a booking, and he was rightly booked for it, and then there was a third one near half-time (Xavi dropped the shoulder and went the other way, he made an attempt at the ball but missed and Xavi went down) - never a booking in a million years if it happened to any other player, but because it was VB and he wasn't booked for a number of fouls in the semi.............
 
I also thought Spain did a number of cynical fouls, some of which were punished with bookings(Capdivilla on Van Persie when he was breaking into acres of space and Ramos on Kuyt when he flicked it over him and again had acres of space) and some not (Puyol the most obvious).  People are painting them as whiter than white, but they too are a professional team doing what they had to to win.
 
It begs the question of which is worse - a foul in the middle of the park where someone has made a genuine attempt to win the ball in a tackle, but was beaten to it and fouls the player in a non violent way (if there is such a thing), or a cynical pull back or ankle tap of a player breaking into space with real attacking intentions.  From memory, none of the dutch fouls were dangerous apart from the obvious De Jong one (before anyone says it, VB's was no different to Puyol's).  There were a number of niggly little ones, but there was also a number of dives from the Spanish that replays should there to be very little or no contact.  Remember - football is a contact sport so there is allowed to be contact to a certain extent (the second booking in the sending off has been justified by comments such as "he put is hand on his shoulder, therefore there was contact" - bollocks, but that is for another time).
 
Kind of jsut rambling now (I'd read back to try and get it to make some sense, but I cannot be bothered).
 
Summary from me - Holland were niggly, not "thugs" while Spain were not squeaky clean themselves although no one seems to mention that.  Overall, I enjoyed watching Spain when they won the Euro's (where they attacked, and scored goals, despite teams getting 10 players in the box against them), but this team........not so much.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
oh, and Bevan looks hot in just a polar bear hat and scarf.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I disagree that the Dutch got yellow cards piled on them for "niggly little" fouls. They were nearly all yellow card offences. Probably only one dutch card in the match is arguable. Maybe not all 'leg breakers', but a lot more than just "niggly".
 
Spain obviously aren't squeaky clean. No team in the world is. Making the World Cup final with only 3 or 4 bookings is a stat that shows they generally weren't going into challenges stupidly. The Dutch made quite a few quite bad challenges throughout the tournament.
 
The difference just looking at this final though is that it seems to me that the dutch went out with an intentional tactic of fouling lots and to give the Spanish a few good whacks. I sort of wanted Spain anyway, but I reeaallly wanted Spain after 30 minutes because of the way the Dutch were kicking them. Their tactic worked too. Spain were getting frustrated and retaliated in a couple of ways / lost their usual cool to some extent. The Dutch seemed to ease off on their hacking to some extent as the game went on. Spain would have had much more chance to win before extra time if they weren't getting hacked at so much (I think), and of course, the Dutch could've won if they'd taken some good chances.
 
As far as Spain not being as good to watch this World Cup as the Euros... they certainly weren't scoring as freely. I don't know if they were playing much worse. They lacked a really, really good striker to get into good positions and whack in goals. If they had that, they wouldn't have been scraping so many close victories, and would have been more of a pleasure to watch. Could have been an absolutely astounding side in fact.
Colvinator2010-07-13 21:07:33
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
This thread is the worst thing i have seen on here outside of Off Topic or Spam.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
paulm wrote:
SiNZ wrote:
Dino10 wrote:

The beach ball didnt help the tournament.. was crap and summed up when the bounce on a soft pitch deceived one of the best keepers in the world.

�

Actually on that, I noticed that the commentators stopped describing at as light after the first week. Do you think someone pointed out it is only 5 grammes lighter than the maximum permitted weight for a match ball? I wonder if a lighter ball might have had less issues with the high bounces, particularly at the high altitude matches?


�

the ball was not technically lighter but gave the impression that it was due to whatever technology they created that made it fly...

�

if you slow down a replay of one of the many 'beckham style' freekicks that soared into row z, you can actually�recognise�the point where a normal ball in any other game would start to curve back down - with this ball it never happened, it just kept soaring skyward�pretty much�every time!

�

�
The theory is not that it's lighter. This has been a common misconception throughout the tournament with SiNZ leading the charge. The theory is that the less panels and no stitching has caused the ball to travel through the air unlike the more traditional balls that have been used in other competitions around the world. It's relative to aerodynamics not weight. I heard it compared to the how the dimples on a golf ball give the golf ball a true flight (if you're any good at hitting it).
Fruglo on 15.01.2013 wrote:

Fuck this stupid game

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Huh? Leading the charge? You mean against the misconception that it's a beach ball, right? Anyway, yeah on dimples etc. Read the article I quoted about the effect of rounder balls on their flight. 

Anyway, I think Frankie wants to talk about violence and variants thereof....
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
This thread is the worst thing i have seen on here outside of Off Topic or Spam.

This.

I have checked this thread throughout the day but couldn't bring myself to get involved again and regretted posting early on. Some people are deluded and some of what has been posted is just plain embarrassing.

Edit. Sorry, missed Franky saying it's a good thread!

Just my opinion.TopLeft072010-07-13 21:36:56
Fruglo on 15.01.2013 wrote:

Fuck this stupid game

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SiNZ wrote:

Huh? Leading the charge? You mean against the misconception that it's a beach ball, right? Anyway, yeah on dimples etc. Read the�article I quoted about the effect of rounder balls on their flight.�


Anyway, I think Frankie wants to talk about violence and variants thereof....

Firstly, sorry for jumping on the Jubalani hijack. Last post on the matter.
Sorry SiNZ, I could be wrong but I thought I remembered you starting a thread about people's misconception of the ball being lighter. Anyway, maybe we should take this there.
Fruglo on 15.01.2013 wrote:

Fuck this stupid game

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
This thread is the worst thing i have seen on here outside of Off Topic or Spam.
 
really?  Huh!
 
I actually think it has been quite interesting to see different people's perception of the same game.  There has been some wildly different views which people have tried to get across without stupidity, childish behaviour and general twatishness (although I may have missed them as I don't tend to read posts that aren't all about me).

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Mmm, it's not your fault Frankie, even though it's your thread. Some of the comments actually make me want to break the internet.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
if you do break the internet, I am back to hiding Razzle between my mattresses.
 
Don't do it.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
You know what i mean. I'm all for differing views, that is what a forum is about, but some of the forummers in this thread don't even deserve to comment on football based on what they've said.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
For all those saying it was just a bit of niggle, and there was only one bad foul in the entire game and that was probably only accidental, please tell me what you think of Sneijder's tackle on Busquets in the first half, and his reaction immediately after the tackle.

Thank you.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Cruyff has slammed the Dutch for their dirty play in the final and appalling behaviour Feverish2010-07-14 09:32:17

Founder

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
For all those saying it was just a bit of niggle, and there was only one bad foul in the entire game and that was probably only accidental, please tell me what you think of Sneijder's tackle on Busquets in the first half, and his reaction immediately after the tackle.

Thank you.
 
I honestly thought that Sneijder tried to pull out of the tackle - it would have been a lot worse if he had kept his studs up at the angle they were at, but when he saw Biscuits getting to the ball before him he changed the positioning of his foot.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Feverish wrote:
Cruyff has slammed the Dutch for their dirty play in the final and appalling behaviour
 
Cruyff had already said before the game that he wanted Spain to win and he was going to support them.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie Mac wrote:
Feverish wrote:
Cruyff has slammed the Dutch for their dirty play in the final and appalling behaviour
 
Cruyff had already said before the game that he wanted Spain to win and he was going to support them.
sauce?

Founder

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