General Football Discussion

Referees' Performances

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Referees' Performances



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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

As far as I'm concerned, the performances of most of the refs at this tournament have really caused many games to become disjointed, and are having way too much of an influence on the game, especially with the dishing out of yellow cards, causing players to miss games or be sent off for minor indiscretions.

Klose's and Kaka's immediately spring to mind.



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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
To be honest, thought Kaka got his just desserts. Had way too much cnut about him the 3-4 minutes leading up to his red card.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
To be honest, thought Kaka got his just desserts. Had way too much cnut about him the 3-4 minutes leading up to his red card.
 
I would much prefer to see players yellow carded for play acting rather than standing still being run into.



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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Well, he did extend his elbow into the player. Sure the Ivorian milked it, but Kaka is far from innocent in all this. Plus all his petulance in the previous few minutes, was happy to see him off to be honest. Just because you're a superstar and a great player doesn't give you the right to be a complete t**ser on the pitch.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Just because you're a superstar and a great player doesn't give you the right to be a complete t**ser on the pitch.
 
I completely agree with you on that one. BUT I thought the main brief that was coming from FIFA before the world cup started was that there was going to be a crackdown on 'simulation' and from what I've seen so far I can only remember one instance of someone being penalised for this (can't remember who it was now). IMO the refs need to focus more on the actors rather than these insignificant 'fouls'.



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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I don't disagree with that - the Ivorian deserved a yellow for his dive that's for sure.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think a big part of the problem is that FIFA don't select the best refs for the WC, rather they are selected by region (or am I wrong?). Some of them look out of their depth and try to compensate by being overly officious.



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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Wibblebutt wrote:
I completely agree with you on that one. BUT I thought the main brief that was coming from FIFA before the world cup started was that there was going to be a crackdown on 'simulation' and from what I've seen so far I can only remember one instance of someone being penalised for this (can't remember who it was now).


Germany got two yellows (both justified) for diving against Australia. Apart from that, nothing.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Each confederation sends a list of its (perceived) best officials and FIFA then makes decision on whom to shortlist for the tournament's group stages. For the first round of games they include refs from all the confederations, and the knock-out games go to the best performed referees in the first round.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
To be honest the best refereeing performance I have seen so far has actually come from the NZ contingent. No uneccesary yellow cards & they let the game flow.
 
Its not just the players doing well. 
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
To be honest, thought Kaka got his just desserts. Had way too much cnut about him the 3-4 minutes leading up to his red card.
 
100% agree with this. Kaka used his elbow in retaliation and got a second yellow. Not a lot to disagree with on that.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
I don't disagree with that - the Ivorian deserved a yellow for his dive that's for sure.
 
Agree with this too. Plus didn't it look like the Ivorian deliberately charged into Kaka in the first place?
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Also, if you remember his first yellow - he first shoved the Ivorian player who'd picked up the ball after Brazil was awarded the free kick, and then squared off to Yaya Toure and began clapping his hands inches from Toure's face.

Incredibly petulant, was very disappointed with him when watching it all unfold.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Wibblebutt wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, the performances of most of the refs at this tournament have really caused many games to become disjointed, and are having way too much of an influence on the game, especially with the dishing out of yellow cards, causing players to miss games or be sent off for minor indiscretions.


Klose's and Kaka's immediately spring to mind.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
To be honest, thought Kaka got his just desserts. Had way too much cnut about him the 3-4 minutes leading up to his red card.


on that basis c ronaldo would be lucky to see out a single half of football for the rest of his career
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
if FIFA want to stamp out the antics of players like Keita they will need to have bans of at least a month in length to be given after the game on video evidence - for bringing thegame into disrepute - but it seems FIFA is too gutless to deal with it
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The simulation thing just doesn't seem to be well handled.

Commentators often look for whether contact was made, however the worst simulations are often where minor offences are made out to look like like major life-threatening offences (to dupe a referee into booking an opponent, or into making a 'big' decision - eg penalty). Hence a minor offence that might otherwise go unnoticed (eg shirt pull in the box) might get the big call. Very tricky for referees because such an incident may well indeed a foul and punishable by a penalty. However, if they pinged every shirt pull in the box there would be an awful lot of penalties per game (aside: maybe that's what needs to happen for a time!).

I think there is a case for our Guatemalan friend to award the penalty to Italy (because, yes, by the laws of the game it was), and then book De Rossi for simulation (or being an arse). That would have been interesting!

I would be interested to know if one can be booked for play acting (=simulation), even when contact is made, because my observation is that the worst play-acting is often after a modest foul (or even legal contact). Witness the Kaka incident.

And it is a blight on the game.

Edit: FYI, Wording from the Laws of the game "... a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour, e.g. if a player: (inter alia)attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)"
Still not clear in the De Rossi case (exaggerated behaviour attempting to influence the referee).Turfmoore2010-06-22 22:38:16

I know, I know, its serious!

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
but, in the Kaka 'incident' the video would clearly show that keita (ivorian) clutched his face after being hit in the chest = simulation (or, if you prefer, being a f**king cheating bastard)

therefore it would be fairly easy to decide that he'd brought the game into disrepute and then slam him with a six week ban

players would then stop cheating in that way
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
To be honest, thought Kaka got his just desserts. Had way too much cnut about him the 3-4 minutes leading up to his red card.

 
yes, he was being a right little arrogant twat leading up to that. seemed to have a smirk on his face after the red aswel as if he knew it was coming


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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
tigers wrote:
but, in the Kaka 'incident' the video would clearly show that keita (ivorian) clutched his face after being hit in the chest = simulation (or, if you prefer, being a f**king cheating bastard)

therefore it would be fairly easy to decide that he'd brought the game into disrepute and then slam him with a six week ban

players would then stop cheating in that way



responsibility also lies with Managers who consistently select  players who seemingly have reckless disregard for the rules. All it takes is a hard line 'in-house' about how you conduct yourself on the field and the respect you should so to the ref and your opposition.

Selection of divers, whingers and cheats says the Manager believes and encourages those tactics.


E's Flat Ah's Flat Too

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
tigers wrote:
el grapadura wrote:
To be honest, thought Kaka got his just desserts. Had way too much cnut about him the 3-4 minutes leading up to his red card.


on that basis c ronaldo would be lucky to see out a single half of football for the rest of his career


CR can be a drama queen, but I've never seen him behave the way Kaka did in those 5 minutes leading up to his send-off.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Turfmoore wrote:
The simulation thing just doesn't seem to be well handled.

Commentators often look for whether contact was made, however the worst simulations are often where minor offences are made out to look like like major life-threatening offences (to dupe a referee into booking an opponent, or into making a 'big' decision - eg penalty). Hence a minor offence that might otherwise go unnoticed (eg shirt pull in the box) might get the big call. Very tricky for referees because such an incident may well indeed a foul and punishable by a penalty. However, if they pinged every shirt pull in the box there would be an awful lot of penalties per game (aside: maybe that's what needs to happen for a time!).

I think there is a case for our Guatemalan friend to award the penalty to Italy (because, yes, by the laws of the game it was), and then book De Rossi for simulation (or being an arse). That would have been interesting!

I would be interested to know if one can be booked for play acting (=simulation), even when contact is made, because my observation is that the worst play-acting is often after a modest foul (or even legal contact). Witness the Kaka incident.

And it is a blight on the game.

Edit: FYI, Wording from the Laws of the game "... a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour, e.g. if a player: (inter alia)attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)"
Still not clear in the De Rossi case (exaggerated behaviour attempting to influence the referee).


You've pretty much arrived at the central problem of the 'diving' and 'simulation' issue. Obvious dives where there is no contact or clear foul are actually fairly rare and pretty easy to spot. The problem is that in many cases, the 'dive' is pulled out after a genuine foul to ensure the player gets the call (or more cynically to perhaps win a penalty or get an opponent booked). And this is incredibly difficult to police both on and off the field (in terms of video replays).

I have seen guidelines to referees (can't remember whether from the FA or UEFA) on how to spot 'simulation' (including looking at the body shape and position purportedly falling after being fouled), and while they are useful, they don't resolve the fundamental problem you've mentioned.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Video citing post match - its the only way to go. Its unfair to expect to put it all on the refs.

In the case of it leading to a goal in a league match it should also lead to a deduction of that goal - with appropriate change to match result and points as a consequence. That would knock back the culture of cheating that is polluting so many leagues and the image opf football. Hopefully that might reduce it cropping up in tournaments like the World Cup so much. And it needs video back-up for refs there as well - Rugby and League etc have it all over football with use of the video ref. It really is a no-brainer...
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
foal30 wrote:

tigers wrote:
but, in the Kaka 'incident' the video would clearly show that keita (ivorian) clutched his face after being hit in the chest = simulation (or, if you prefer, being a f**king cheating bastard)

therefore it would be fairly easy to decide that he'd brought the game into disrepute and then slam him with a six week ban

players would then stop cheating in that way
responsibility also lies with Managers who consistently select� players who seemingly have reckless disregard for the rules. All it takes is a hard line 'in-house' about how you conduct yourself on the field and the respect you should so to the ref and your opposition.Selection of divers, whingers and cheats says the Manager believes and encourages those tactics.


managers will select them (except for noble Sir Ricki of Herbert)-so it's up to fifa and the national associations to sort it out

if fans boo-ed their own players for diving that might make managers and financial officers/ceos think twice - but realistically it has to be controlled by the governing bodies

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
possibly fair enough El Grap re CR compared to Kaka in that match, but i do find his self-preening arrogance pretty sickening

re refs spotting dives, perhaps the offending players could be tasered as part of their punishment and videos taken and compared to vids of real fouls

just to help the refs do their job, of course
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Two awful lino decisions today. Both were glaringly obvious calls too.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The call in the Argentina v Mexico game is far worse than the England v Argentina imo. The A/R was in line with the defence - I think he was watching the ball rather than the position of the 2nd last defender and completely missed Tevez's position when the ball was played.

With Lampards shot at goal - you cannot expect the A/R to run at the same speed as the shot. Looking at the footage, the A/R is about 17 yds out, in line with the 2nd last German defender when Lampard took his shot, the A/R had already checked his run towards the goal, as had the defender from the intial blocking tackle as the ball looked like it was heading upfield again. So to expect the A/R to make up 17yds in about one second to be in line with the goal line to see whether it has crossed the line is ridiculous.

IMO then.

Argentina v Mexico - an example of poor officiating
England v Germany - one of the deficencies in game officiating at present - it's a well known conumdrum on how on earth A/Rs can be in a position to call the ball crossing the line of shots taken from a distance when the defence is quite high up the field.

When Hibs, went up, to win the Scottish Cup - I wisnae there - furfuxake!

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
only one......Mexico were cheated big time by a very slow and out of postion offical.....the other is not so easy to call......from the touch line......you try it by positioning a ball in the same place then taking the lino's postion...aprox 15-18 yards from the goal line....near impossilbe to call to be 100% correct
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
ginger_eejit wrote:
The call in the Argentina v Mexico game is far worse than the England v Argentina imo. The A/R was in line with the defence - I think he was watching the ball rather than the position of the 2nd last defender and completely missed Tevez's position when the ball was played.With Lampards shot at goal - you cannot expect the A/R to run at the same speed as the shot. Looking at the footage, the A/R is about 17 yds out, in line with the 2nd last German defender when Lampard took his shot, the A/R had already checked his run towards the goal, as had the defender from the intial blocking tackle as the ball looked like it was heading upfield again. So to expect the A/R to make up 17yds in about one second to be in line with the goal line to see whether it has crossed the line is ridiculous.IMO then.Argentina v Mexico - an example of poor officiatingEngland v Germany - one of the deficencies in game officiating at present - it's a well known conumdrum on how on earth A/Rs can be in a position to call the ball crossing the line of shots taken from a distance when the defence is quite high up the field.


three words for you - "rocket-propelled linos"
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
tigers wrote:
possibly fair enough El Grap re CR compared to Kaka in that match, but i do find his self-preening arrogance pretty sickening

re refs spotting dives, perhaps the offending players could be tasered as part of their punishment and videos taken and compared to vids of real fouls

just to help the refs do their job, of course
 
Sounds like a great idea. Where do I get my taser?

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
A colleague of mine who used to referee suggested the vuvuzelas may have an impact on the number of poor offside calls at the World Cup. She says that linos watch the line of the defenders, but listen for the kick of the ball. However with the horns the linesmen cannot hear the kick. I don't know how much there is to this theory, but it is food for thought - the offside calls have been particularly poor. I would have thought a regular full-house crowd chanting would make it difficult for linesmen to hear the ball being kicked though. She's done a bit of refereeing in the past (cannot remember at what level) and she knows her stuff, so she may have a point.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Footpaul wrote:
A colleague of mine who used to referee suggested the vuvuzelas may have an impact on the number of poor offside calls at the World Cup. She says that linos watch the line of the defenders, but listen for the kick of the ball. However with the horns the linesmen cannot hear the kick. I don't know how much there is to this theory, but it is food for thought - the offside calls have been particularly poor. I would have thought a regular full-house crowd chanting would make it difficult for linesmen to hear the ball being kicked though. She's done a bit of refereeing in the past (cannot remember at what level) and she knows her stuff, so she may have a point.


Sounds fairly spot on - if the defence are quite deep and marking attacking players and they're a distance from the attacking player with the ball - then it is quite tricky to keep track of the ball and the offside line, so other than only recruiting popeyed linos, yeah a tool of the trade is to listen for the ball being kicked.

Singing compared to vuvuzelas - Singing isn't constant nor as loud.
ginger_eejit2010-06-29 19:47:09

When Hibs, went up, to win the Scottish Cup - I wisnae there - furfuxake!

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
tigers wrote:


managers will select them (except for noble Sir Ricki of Herbert)-so it's up to fifa and the national associations to sort it out


Ricki got rid of G**, Daniel sorted his "Balance" out, and Timmy B may have been shunted aside by Ivan due to his theatrics after all.
You know we belong together...

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oska wrote:
tigers wrote:


managers will select them (except for noble Sir Ricki of Herbert)-so it's up to fifa and the national associations to sort it out


Ricki got rid of G**, Daniel sorted his "Balance" out, and Timmy B may have been shunted aside by Ivan due to his theatrics after all.
 
 Controversial.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
There is nothing like Tim Brown,
For throwing himself all over the ground!


Love him though.
You know we belong together...

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