Kiwi Players Elsewhere

Adam Mitchell (Bolton Wanderers | England)

126 replies · 45,110 views
almost 10 years ago

el grapadura wrote:

Aza wrote:

Jaume wrote:

Aza wrote:

Neat! Red Star is a great club, in the early 90 was the best football team on the planet

You can barely call winning one European Cup on penalties in 1991 equivalent to being the best team in the early 90s. AC Milan was.

for a brief period it was and would have been for more years but sadly communism collapses occur. Then the president of Red Star sold most of the team players and put the all money in a  fixed term account, years later the money vanished. 

Communism really had pretty much nothing to do with it - everyone was too busy killing each other to take any note of that.

But yeah, I'd say between 1989 and 1991, they were one of the top sides in Europe - that midfield had Stojkovic, Savicevic, Prosinecki, and a bit later, Mihajlovic and Jugovic too.

Veering off topic a bit, some of you who have far more knowledge than me of football/the region may find this article of interest.

These Football Times article

Kotahitanga. We are one.

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almost 10 years ago

Good article - though the bit about the "football tragedy" of Yugoslavia splitting up did seem to be overplayed in relation to the Balkan War (where the real tragedies were occurring). I'm sure this wasn't the authors intention, and he did make a point of trying to not "trivialise" such matters, but it was a bit "I'm not racist, but....."

I do wonder if the hypothetical Yugoslav team the author suggested would have been as successful as made out - surely ethnic tensions or misunderstandings in the Yugoslav national team would have always existed, leading to a relatively disharmonious and disfunctional team?

Getting geo-political on it, there are similarities between Yugoslavia and surrounding states, and what is happening in the Middle East - artificial borders leading to internal atrocities as people seek control over others.

But always good to read an intelligent article on footy!

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almost 10 years ago

There is an ESPN documentary a little bit related to this, it was about the Yugoslavian national basketball team and a rift in their ranks between Croatian and Serbian player/s.

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almost 10 years ago
Once Brothers its called - its one of the best ones


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almost 10 years ago

Rusty Dunks wrote:

Good article - though the bit about the "football tragedy" of Yugoslavia splitting up did seem to be overplayed in relation to the Balkan War (where the real tragedies were occurring). I'm sure this wasn't the authors intention, and he did make a point of trying to not "trivialise" such matters, but it was a bit "I'm not racist, but....."

I do wonder if the hypothetical Yugoslav team the author suggested would have been as successful as made out - surely ethnic tensions or misunderstandings in the Yugoslav national team would have always existed, leading to a relatively disharmonious and disfunctional team?

Getting geo-political on it, there are similarities between Yugoslavia and surrounding states, and what is happening in the Middle East - artificial borders leading to internal atrocities as people seek control over others.

But always good to read an intelligent article on footy!

It's not so much tensions/misunderstandings within the team - players always generally tended to get along well together, and even these days they do (always a few c0cks around, but that's nothing unusual).

The bigger problem was that the team was always picked in accordance with the 'ethnic key' so to speak - i.e. the selectors always had to include players from all the republics and ethnicities to ensure the 'representativeness' of the team. This effectively meant that it wasn't the best team being selected, but a most representative one.

A lot of people from the area would also take serious offence at the statement that the borders are artificial - just a heads up.

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almost 10 years ago · edited almost 10 years ago · History

OK ignore the borders thing, might have been poorly worded - should have maybe used 'imposed' rather than 'artificial'.

Back on to footy - so was the Yugoslav team picked sort of like every South African team now is? A quota system was in place?

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almost 10 years ago

Rusty Dunks wrote:

OK ignore the borders thing, might have been poorly worded - should have maybe used 'imposed' rather than 'artificial'.

Back on to footy - so was the Yugoslav team picked sort of like every South African team now is? A quota system was in place?

Yeah, that's a good comparison (although the reasons were different). It wasn't really an official system, but anyone with half a brain could see that it was there.

Take the 1990 World Cup as an example - you've got a 36-year old Safet Susic playing (and don't get me wrong, he was one of the all-time great players for Yugoslavia, but not in 1990), while you have Savicevic and Prosinecki on the bench (Boban didn't even make the squad, but that was for different political reasons). Prosinecki was only 21, but was already a quality player, and Savicevic was just about to turn 24, and was already a superstar in Yugoslavia. They'd both go on to be critical players for Red Star and would go on to win the European Cup the following season. Susic really shouldn't have been starting ahead either of them - but he did. And the reason he did was to make sure there was the right balance of all the Yugoslav republics in the team.

The other glaring point from that squad was that Drazen Ladic, who was the best keeper in the Yugoslav league in the preceding season, wasn't picked  - and the main reason really was because the Number 1 was Tomislav Ivkovic, and it wouldn't do to have only Croatian keepers in the squad.

So yeah, if by some miracle Yugoslavia had stayed together, the team would have continued to be picked on that basis - it would still have been a pretty good side, but I doubt it'd have reached the heights that many think that it would have.

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almost 10 years ago
Way to kill a player thread yikes


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almost 10 years ago

TV wrote:
Way to kill a player thread yikes
I wouldn't say that it's been killed. This has been a very interesting read about history of football in Yugoslavia; I haven't seen that in any other threads so for once the chat being slightly off-topic I don't see the issue with that. 

At any moment you can steer the conversation back to Adam Mitchell, you can resuscitate the thread if you will.

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almost 10 years ago

Jaume wrote:

TV wrote:
Way to kill a player thread yikes
I wouldn't say that it's been killed. This has been a very interesting read about history of football in Yugoslavia; I haven't seen that in any other threads so for once the chat being slightly off-topic I don't see the issue with that. 

At any moment you can steer the conversation back to Adam Mitchell, you can resuscitate the thread if you will.

Agree. It's nice to find out about the heritage of the club he's gone to and the football culture he's playing in. A good part of the game



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almost 10 years ago

Didn't Adam Mitchell play for HB United two seasons back? i thought I saw him captaining HBU against team Wellington playing at CB.

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almost 10 years ago
Guessing he'll be loaned out next season to level below


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almost 10 years ago

TV1 sports news have a story on him coming up in a few minutes

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almost 10 years ago

Yeh a good positive football item. Nice to have another Euro team to keep an eye on.

Oi Oi Edgecumbe... lets have a clean sheet

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over 9 years ago

Red Star opened their European campaign in Second Qualifying Round of the Champions League. They beat Valetta 2-1 in the first leg in Malta, the return leg is next week.

Mitchell wasn't involved in the game.

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over 9 years ago

el grapadura wrote:

Red Star opened their European campaign in Second Qualifying Round of the Champions League. They beat Valetta 2-1 in the first leg in Malta, the return leg is next week.

Mitchell wasn't involved in the game.

Won the return leg 2-1 as well. Mitchell again wasn't involved either on field or as a sub. Next up for them is Ludogorets from Bulgaria, the Bulgarians probably favourites entering into the tie.

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over 9 years ago · edited over 9 years ago · History

2-2 this morning away to Ludogorets, very good result for them. If they get past the Bulgarians, they'll have a guaranteed spot in Europe over the European autumn (winning the next qualifying round leads to group stages of the Champions League, losing it leads to group stages of the Europa League).

Mitchell again not involved in any way.

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over 9 years ago

Is playing for the reserves currently, injured or part of the wider squad atm not the playing squad?

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over 9 years ago

He's not listed in their first team squad on their website. Hard to find out much beyond that.

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over 9 years ago

Bec he is on a loan to FK Javor-Matis Ivanjica (also Serbian 1. League).

Its a one year deal.

I think its better for him bec Red Star has 4 quality centre backs.

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over 9 years ago

Is that their 2nd division?

He got a 2 year deal didn't he... send him on loan for a year and see how he develops. If he goes well, put in the first team the following year, if not... send him to ACFC

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over 9 years ago
Same league


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over 9 years ago

Awesome, glad he's at Javor-Matis Ivanjica and here's hoping he'll get a lot of game time. He's not on their website yet but he's listed on Transfermarkt

Javor-Matis are undefeated so far in the Serbian League (not in the good way, in the NZ way) with 2 draws from 2 matches played. On Saturday at 19:00 (Sunday 5:00 NZ time) they are playing newly promoted Backa who are currently sitting in 14th place out of a total of 16 teams in the Serbian top div. After that they're playing Partizan and then Vojvodina; those are two hard fixtures in a row for Javor-Matis. Let's see how he goes!

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over 9 years ago

Guessing that Ivanjica would be quite a culture shock...

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over 9 years ago

Also, since I've been updating on this, I might as well finish it - Red Star got knocked out of Champions League qualifying this morning, losing 4-2 to Ludogorets at home after extra time (and losing 6-4 on aggregate).

They'll now go into the play-off round for Europa League, but given their low club coefficient, they're likely to come across pretty tough opposition there.

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over 9 years ago

el grapadura wrote:

Guessing that Ivanjica would be quite a culture shock...

According to Transfermarkt he was born in Croatia and is a dual national Croat-New Zealander. So obviously Croatia and Serbia are very different, but apparently he's Eastern European so not as much of a culture shock as if he were born and raise in Waikato or something.
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over 9 years ago

Klinge15 wrote:

Bec he is on a loan to FK Javor-Matis Ivanjica (also Serbian 1. League).

Its a one year deal.

I think its better for him bec Red Star has 4 quality centre backs.

She's a great tennis player

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over 9 years ago · edited over 9 years ago · History

Jaume wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

Guessing that Ivanjica would be quite a culture shock...

According to Transfermarkt he was born in Croatia and is a dual national Croat-New Zealander. So obviously Croatia and Serbia are very different, but apparently he's Eastern European so not as much of a culture shock as if he were born and raise in Waikato or something.

Mitchell was born in NZ, and has pretty much spent most of his life here. He does have a Croatian mother as far as I know (or maybe she just has Croatian heritage, I'm not 100%). Neither country is actually in Eastern Europe, and they're actually quite different culturally. Furthermore, Ivanjica is a very small town in the backwoods of Serbia, so it's not really a place like Belgrade or Novi Sad where he could fit in relatively easily.

But other than that, yeah OK.

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over 9 years ago

It depends on your definition of Eastern EuropeAll I said was Transfermarkt said he was born in Croatia; they're usually correct with their facts and I see nowhere that he was born in NZ?

There's a reason I phrased this the way I did: "So obviously Croatia and Serbia are very different, but apparently he's Eastern European so not as much of a culture shock as if [...]". Of course they're very different countries, but the way I phrased that was saying that France and Spain have some similarities, Romania and Bulgaria have some similarities, Poland and Lithuania have some similarities... I.e., of course they're different borders, etc. etc., but they're neighbours—they indeed have some similarities. Both used to be part of the same country for Christ's sake; it's not like I'm saying he was born/has heritage from Estonia and he's playing in Portugal.

Also I was saying it in a way implying New Zealand and Serbia are vastly different from Serbia and Croatia. Croatia has 4.4% Serbs so no doubt he's met some and thus another reason it's not as much of a culture shock as if he was 100% Kiwi without dual nationality born and raised in Waikato with his first experience outside New Zealand.

The town Adam Mitchell was supposedly born in, Vrgorac, is a small town of 7,000 population. Ivanjica is bigger than Vrgorac so he's used to "backwoods".

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over 9 years ago · edited over 9 years ago · History

Jaume wrote:

It depends on your definition of Eastern EuropeAll I said was Transfermarkt said he was born in Croatia; they're usually correct with their facts and I see nowhere that he was born in NZ?

There's a reason I phrased this the way I did: "So obviously Croatia and Serbia are very different, but apparently he's Eastern European so not as much of a culture shock as if [...]". Of course they're very different countries, but the way I phrased that was saying that France and Spain have some similarities, Romania and Bulgaria have some similarities, Poland and Lithuania have some similarities... I.e., of course they're different borders, etc. etc., but they're neighbours—they indeed have some similarities. Both used to be part of the same country for Christ's sake; it's not like I'm saying he was born/has heritage from Estonia and he's playing in Portugal.

Also I was saying it in a way implying New Zealand and Serbia are vastly different from Serbia and Croatia. Croatia has 4.4% Serbs so no doubt he's met some and thus another reason it's not as much of a culture shock as if he was 100% Kiwi without dual nationality born and raised in Waikato with his first experience outside New Zealand.

The town Adam Mitchell was supposedly born in, Vrgorac, is a small town of 7,000 population. Ivanjica is bigger than Vrgorac so he's used to "backwoods".

Firstly, if you actually read this thread, you will see that a person who knows Mitchell and his family has given the information I've referred to. I have no idea what Transfermarkt says, and I don't care, because that information is not accurate.

The 'Eastern Europe' you refer to is very much a political construct of the Cold War era. and has no basis in actual geography. If Croatia and Serbia are Eastern Europe, what are Russia, and Belarus, and Ukraine? Asia? But that's not even the worst of it...Croatia and Serbia were part of the same country - for a great total of 70 years in over a 1000-year history for both nations. And that didn't really end well, did it? Because they are very different - let's have a look:

Croatia - Catholic, uses Latin alphabet, much of the 1,000 year plus history spent in various unions with Hungary and Austria, and in coastal regions, with Venice, used the be the European frontier holding out against the Ottoman Empire. The country is essentially a mix of central Europe and the Mediterranean, and is culturally and socially reflective of that.

Serbia - Serbian Orthodox, uses Cyrillic alphabet (good luck dealing with that in Ivanjica), much of its history (and still today) has been under Byzantine/Russian influence, and spent close to 500 years under the Ottoman Empire, often serving as Ottoman vassals during their incursions and attempts to expand westward into Europe. The Russian influence persists, and they are probably the biggest supporters of Russia in Europe right now.

And this is not to mention the recent historical and political developments - from the fact that they have been at war with each other 3 times in the last 100 years (none of which were pleasant and clean affairs), and one of which is still very much in living memory, to the fact that Croatia maintains a pro-Western European outlook and is a member of the EU, whereas Serbia continues to look to the East and Russia, and is not a member of the EU.

So even the Estonia and Portugal comparison is probably closer - at least they have the same alphabet, and haven't been killing each other for the last 100 years...

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over 9 years ago

Whatever mate, I never said they are identical counties and am aware of the differences, I simply said they have some similarities. You can't deny they have some similarities. In terms of me saying they have some similarities you are deliberately misconstruing my words so as to highlight the differences between the two countries—I never said they were the same. Again, it's a much bigger culture shock to move from NZ without ever having left and being a Kiwi for 5 generations straight than being a dual national of a former Yugoslav country (moving to a former Yugoslav country) and NZ—my point here being that it's not as much of a culture shock as it would be for the majority of NZers. Just because Yugoslavia didn't end well doesn't mean the constituent countries don't have a shared history—they literally do because they were both part of Yugoslavia.

Every country in the world that has a border has some similarities with the country they're bordering.

And Serbian uses Cyrillic as well as the Latin alphabet. It's the only European standard language with complete synchronic digraphia.

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over 9 years ago

Thanks for the geography and history lessons boys... any news on how he's playing?

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over 9 years ago

Jaume wrote:

Whatever mate, I never said they are identical counties and am aware of the differences, I simply said they have some similarities. You can't deny they have some similarities. In terms of me saying they have some similarities you are deliberately misconstruing my words so as to highlight the differences between the two countries—I never said they were the same. Again, it's a much bigger culture shock to move from NZ without ever having left and being a Kiwi for 5 generations straight than being a dual national of a former Yugoslav country (moving to a former Yugoslav country) and NZ—my point here being that it's not as much of a culture shock as it would be for the majority of NZers. Just because Yugoslavia didn't end well doesn't mean the constituent countries don't have a shared history—they literally do because they were both part of Yugoslavia.

Every country in the world that has a border has some similarities with the country they're bordering.

And Serbian uses Cyrillic as well as the Latin alphabet. It's the only European standard language with complete synchronic digraphia.

You're  making assumptions based on a couple of a google searches - I'm telling you how it is knowing these place very well. And they are very different - and they were very different during Yugoslavia. Just because they have a very short history of being together in the same country doesn't mean that that similarities are there (and coincendatally, Croatian/Serbian border is a relatively short one - and that's where there are actual similarities. But that part of Serbia is atypical of Serbia south of Belgrade, which is where Mitchell is now). 

And like I also mentioned, Mitchell has dual nationality because of parentage, not because he's intimately familiar with either place.

And just because Serbian can be written in the Latin alphabet (in much the same way that English can be written in the Cyrillic), it doesn't mean that it's widely used. But if you'd been to Serbia you'd know that.

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over 9 years ago

To get back on topic, this is their stadium:

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over 9 years ago · edited over 9 years ago · History

Played 90 mins for OFK Beograd who are in the Serbian 2nd division (Prva Liga). They are currently 3rd from bottom.

His first competitive game in Serbia.  I note he was 1 of only 2 non-Serbs in the game

http://au.soccerway.com/matches/2016/09/10/serbia/...

Guess he must have been loaned out to Beograd from Red Star?

As for all young players like him, main thing is to be playing regularly.

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