Laws and Young - Now with HoG response

66 replies · 2,729 views

over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Jag wrote:

Here's a question for you, bearing in mind that I come from a country where football is far and away the most popular sport.

Instead of trotting out pretentious bollocks about football breathing in hot air and weaving round streets, why don't you explain your vision of how football is suddenly going to explode in this country. How we'll be getting 35,000 at every Nix game and every National League team will be pulling in 10 - 15,000 every week.

I'm going to take this as a tacit admission that the culture "theory" doesn't hold water. (If it did, you would defend it, rather than flame me.)

For the record, I never insisted that football would "suddenly" "explode" in this country. I did attack the claim that it would "NEVER" be the top code in NZ, and my reasoning for that was the changing demographics.

If it's not clear why football benefits and rugby suffers from urbanisation, try practicing the two codes on concrete, or in a confined yard. That's not the reality for the professionals, but it is for the kids.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I'm not actually arguing with you, if you read my original post you'd have seen that. I said that football may well be the No. 1 sport in this country but that I wouldn't be around to see it. I certainly didn't rule it out as a possibility, only as a possibility for the forseeable future.

The benefits and advantages that football has over other codes certainly don't have to be explained to me. As for the culture theory. I do believe that culture explains a lot, if not everything. The effects of culture, and attempting to change cultures, are worthy of a wider debate but I don't really think this is the time or place. If you're in the BB the next time I'm down for a game, I'll look forward to carrying this one on over a beer (or two).

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Stripes wrote:

Gourdietv3 wrote:

Stripes wrote:

Gourdietv3 wrote:

http://www.3news.co.nz/MICHAEL-LAWS-FOOTBALL-GENIUS-YEAH-RIGHT/tabid/840/articleID/131002/cat/924/Default.aspx

Michael has also inspired anti-feeling at 3news

Reads like an anti-football piece to me. This:

"I'll happily admit I agree with some of the comments in this column. New Zealand sports fans ARE fickle, and football will NEVER knock rugby off its perch."

suggests that the writer can be filed along with those who argued with critics of the Wright brothers that, while Orville and Wilbur will NEVER achieve powered flight, they are good bicycle makers.

Guys I love football as much as anyone here, but the fact is Rugby is sewn into New Zealand culture.

England WON the rugby world cup in 2003, but do you think rugby will ever knock football off its perch in the UK? No chance.

You can apply the same theory in reverse here.

I would just like to see New Zealand Football earn some respect on the world stage, and regularly have an All Whites team we can be proud of.

Actually, there isn't a theory to apply. You haven't done anything except present a rather superficial observation and a rhetorical question.

Why is it that football is so strong globally? What made rugby strong in New Zealand? The essential question is location: football breathes in the hot air of the cities and weaves through their streets. Rugby lives off the broad pastures of the countryside.

For those of you that haven't checked since the 1950s, New Zealand is no longer a rural country. The bulk of the population lives in urban centers. Rugby has an historical strength, embodied in the wealth of its institutions. That is a lagging factor, not an iron law.

Football is the future, not because the All Whites qualified for the World Cup, but because it's the top game for the urban youth.

Assuming you're referring to the comment about rugby being sewn into our culture, I really struggle to see how you can call that a superficial observation. Rugby has been the number one sport in this country for well over 100 years ... New Zealand's only 169 years old.

One of the reasons I do this job and support the game in this country is I believe that we are capable of becoming a respected football nation, and New Zealanders don't know what they're missing out on when it comes to this game.

It's obvious football has a future - you only have to look at the numbers of "urban youth'"who play the game. But that doesn't transform into knocking rugby off its perch.

Rugby has the Air New Zealand Cup, Super 14, not to mention hundreds of clubs in Japan and Europe preying on New Zealand players who have a proven pedigree. NZ Football has the NZFC and the Phoenix. My point is, there are more opportunities for a young New Zealand sportsman to make a career out of rugby over football and until that changes, rugby will be number one.

The reason Australia have made giant strides in the world of football is because they have established a quality national competition, have a group of around 20-30 players competing in top european leagues, and have significant government support. I think we will start to see more NZ players at the top level in the coming years, but it's hard to see NZ developing a professional national league in the mould of the A-League which provides a ligitimate career path for aspiring young footballers.

Finally, my blog is generally read by NZ Football fans on this very forum. Can i suggest you direct your energy towards people like Michael Laws and Eric Young, whose comments in mainstream media are far more damaging to your hopes for the game.

Gourdietv32009-11-24 11:59:09

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Stripes wrote:

Jag wrote:

Here's a question for you, bearing in mind that I come from a country where football is far and away the most popular sport.

Touch rugby = street football

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Touch Rugby = Touch league, not Union.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I really don't think this argument stacks up in New Zealand where we have plenty of parks, even in urban centres. Your theory about kids playing football on the street happens in places where there either aren't many parks or reserves, or it's too dangerous for children to walk there.

If there's any sport in NZ that gets played on the street it's not rugby or football, it's cricket.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

"If it's not clear why football benefits and rugby suffers from urbanisation, try practicing the two codes on concrete, or in a confined yard. That's not the reality for the professionals, but it is for the kids."

My theory by Ann Elk (Ms) (also not the one about Brontosauruses):

Urban populations - more culturally/etnically diverse and greater concentration of people; thereby allowing a critcal mass for minority sports including football to be run as club sports.

Changing population demographics from immigration will see changes to numbers of people participationg in various sports over time. However unless we were suddenly to depopulate the country of WASPs, Tangata Whenua and Pasifika people it will take a humoungoulsy long time for football to make significant inroads into rugby... and why would that be a good thing?

Main thing is that following this historic occasion and the opportunity that is now presented to NZ and NZF, how can the sport grow and flourish?

Anyway that's my theory.

Do you want to hear the one for Brontosauruses?

Junior822009-11-24 12:47:20

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Nice use of the Monty Python reference there, J82

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Gourdietv3 wrote:

Stripes wrote:

Gourdietv3 wrote:

Guys I love football as much as anyone here, but the fact is Rugby is sewn into New Zealand culture.

England WON the rugby world cup in 2003, but do you think rugby will ever knock football off its perch in the UK? No chance.

You can apply the same theory in reverse here.

I would just like to see New Zealand Football earn some respect on the world stage, and regularly have an All Whites team we can be proud of.

[/QUOTE]

Actually, there isn't a theory to apply. You haven't done anything except present a rather superficial observation and a rhetorical question.

Why is it that football is so strong globally? What made rugby strong in New Zealand? The essential question is location: football breathes in the hot air of the cities and weaves through their streets. Rugby lives off the broad pastures of the countryside.

For those of you that haven't checked since the 1950s, New Zealand is no longer a rural country. The bulk of the population lives in urban centers. Rugby has an historical strength, embodied in the wealth of its institutions. That is a lagging factor, not an iron law.

Football is the future, not because the All Whites qualified for the World Cup, but because it's the top game for the urban youth.
[/QUOTE]

Supposing that you aren't... when I write that it's a superficial observation, I mean that it doesn't go beneath the most obvious surface features. If I was telling you that it was false, I'd have used a word like "erroneous" or "bull----". Now, coming back with, "Look, it's obviously true!" is no retort to a charge of superficiality.

Gourdietv3 wrote:

It's obvious football has a future - you only have to look at the numbers of "urban youth'"who play the game. But that doesn't transform into knocking rugby off its perch.

Rugby has the Air New Zealand Cup, Super 14, not to mention hundreds of clubs in Japan and Europe preying on New Zealand players who have a proven pedigree. NZ Football has the NZFC and the Phoenix.

... and the rest of the world. Which plays football, in case you hadn't noticed.

[QUOTE=Gourdietv3]My point is, there are more opportunities for a young New Zealand sportsman to make a career out of rugby over football and until that changes, rugby will be number one.

In terms of making a career out the game, there are vastly more opportunities for young athletes of any nationality in football. Millions are going to NZ football as a consequence of qualification, and that will go some way to improving training standards so that potential stars can develop within country.

[QUOTE=Gourdietv3]The reason Australia have made giant strides in the world of football is because they have established a quality national competition, have a group of around 20-30 players competing in top european leagues, and have significant government support. I think we will start to see more NZ players at the top level in the coming years, but it's hard to see NZ developing a professional national league in the mould of the A-League which provides a ligitimate career path for aspiring young
footballers.

Why reinvent the wheel? Wales doesn't try to duplicate EPL. All NZ football needs is more access to the A-League, and there's every reason to expect this will happen.

[QUOTE=Gourdietv3]Finally, my blog is generally read by NZ Football fans on this very forum. Can i suggest you direct your energy towards people like Michael Laws and Eric Young, whose comments in mainstream media are far more damaging to your hopes for the game.

You can suggest whatever you like. :) But I actually regard your policy - proclaiming your love for the game one minute, then explaining how it will always be inferior to rugby and young footballers might as well give up on their aspirations - to be far more damaging than the obvious nonsense of Laws and Young.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Junior82 wrote:

My theory by Ann Elk (Ms) (also not the one about Brontosauruses):

Urban populations - more culturally/etnically diverse and greater concentration of people; thereby allowing a critcal mass for minority sports including football to be run as club sports.

Main thing is that following this historic occasion and the opportunity that is now presented to NZ and NZF, how can the sport grow and flourish?

Anyway that's my theory.

Do you want to hear the one for Brontosauruses?

I have a second theory... My second theory states that fire brigade choirs seldom sing songs about Marcel Proust.

And my third theory states that white middle class New Zealand males of a certain age in the media seldom write complementary columns about New Zealand football. Karl du Fresne in the Doom Post today. No link on line that I can find, but the same lines rehashed, plus, as Ricki said something along the lines of 'the crowd really got behind us and got us over the line', we have very very very little chance in S. Africa unless NZF hires several 747s to fly us all over to replicate the 'atmosphere' from the Rof last Saturday

As we say in medicine, w-anca positive (immunology nerd joke)
Leeds_Chris2009-11-24 17:08:01

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Stripes wrote:

Gourdietv3 wrote:

oh guys, guys

Can't we all just get along as one big happy football mosh pit family?

Salmon07 was dishing out a big group hug in another thread - how about one here?

While our bitterness sustains us, our football unites us!

(Cue KiwiMalaysia and a rousing chorus of the Internationale)

Junior822009-11-24 17:14:48

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

The peoples flag is...

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Leeds_Chris wrote:

And my third theory states that white middle class New Zealand males of a certain age in the media seldom write complementary columns about New Zealand football. Karl du Fresne in the Doom Post today.

Maybe related to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJweDZXolrs

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Junior82 wrote:

Stripes wrote:

Gourdietv3 wrote:

oh guys, guys

Can't we all just get along as one big happy football mosh pit family?

Salmon07 was dishing out a big group hug in another thread - how about one here?

While our bitterness sustains us, our football unites us!

(Cue KiwiMalaysia and a rousing chorus of the Internationale)

I appreciate the sentiment, although the nod to chaps like Karl "State what is" Marx and VI "Splitter" Lenin isn't the best for what you're suggesting.

I'm also not clear what kind of compromise you suggest - or even if one is possible. Are you telling me that I'm wrong about what Gourdie's writing (i.e. his remarks are not damaging to the game), and shouldn't rock the boat? Or do you think Gourdie's position is damaging to the game, and that he should put a lid on it? I don't see a middle ground.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hey, some of you guys have been going for it. I'd join in but as the thread is based on Michael Laws' column and I won't read it I'm left a little off the pace.

I will say reading Michael Laws more then once is a bit like that joke. "It looks like dog sh**, it feels like dog sh**, it tastes like dog sh**, must be dog sh** . . . glad that we didn't step in it.

I mean to say why go there?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Cancelling my subscription to the SST.

Deeply offended by laws in your face article after the All Whites win. I originally subscribed for the Billy Harris column (not that I particularly like it but it is a football column).

Rather than knock Rugby off their own perch (it's looking fairly shakey supporting an obese dodo anyway) we should concentrate on building our own.

Media coverage of our game in this country is a joke compared to rugby, and that is what really pisses me off. After the game SST gave the front page of the sports section to the footy followed by 3 pages to the rugby game against Italy ffs. We don't just have to raise the standard of our game but push the media barons to take on more footy journalists, not converted rugby heads, and start writing and publishing more articles. You guys in Wellington don't know how good you have got it with the DP and Fred Woodcock while down here in ChCh poor old Tony Smith has to cover softball and anything else going to earn a crust.

What's sight without sound? Love without peace? Copulation without conception?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

who is this Stripes guy, and why can I not understand a single thing he says? Is it Frankie Macs login after he's been on the vodka soda-stream?

Founder

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Are you Michael Laws? Look Stripes I have a job to do, so I really don't have time to deal with your smarmy reply.

"... and the rest of the world. Which plays football, in case you hadn't noticed."

Of course I've noticed. Have you noticed the rest of the world doesn't make a habit of cherry picking our players to earn millions?

There are around 350-400 professional rugby players playing IN NEW ZEALAND. There are 8 New Zealand players playing for the Phoenix. That commentï¿½s not meant to be ï¿½damaging to the gameï¿½, itï¿½s a fact.

Any sportsman has to make a start in their own country ï¿½ What Iï¿½m trying to say is that in the current sporting environment, there are more opportunities to be a professional rugby player in NZ, than in football. Until that changes how can you expect football to be number 1?

"In terms of making a career out the game, there are vastly more opportunities for young athletes of any nationality in football."

I would never try to convince someone not to follow through on aspirations of becoming a professional footballer, but it is very hard. My point is, it's even harder when you come from New Zealand because of the limited opportunities to play professionally during the crucial years of development.

"Why reinvent the wheel? Wales doesn't try to duplicate EPL. ï¿½

Well maybe they should, because Wales haven't been to a world cup since 1958. And remind me what Walesï¿½ national sport is? Good example Stripes.

ï¿½All NZ football needs is more access to the A-League, and there's every reason to expect this will happen."

What makes you think NZ Football will get more access to the A-League when the Phoenix aren't guaranteed a place after 2011? I'm really starting to think you are Michael Laws.

You have selected ONE WORD in my blog and taken it far too seriously, and to say that my comments are damaging to the game is drawing a very VERY long bow. Instead of being preoccupied with ï¿½knocking rugby off its perchï¿½, I am simply looking to raise the profile of the sport in New Zealand.

You can reply to this if you want, but don't expect a response from me because you're not worth my time.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

You tell him Gourdie!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Junior82 wrote:

Urban populations - more culturally/etnically diverse and greater concentration of people; thereby allowing a critcal mass for minority sports including football to be run as club sports.

Not to mention all the indoor evening / lunch time 5-aside football ,Futsal ,twilight football,summer league football etc
Not a lot of this sort of thing going on in the Heartland back blocks or the high country!
Apart from touch which is sort of rugby (tig with a ball) there doesn't seem to be many variants of rugby played indoor or out in summer or winter ,perhaps this is partly the reason for the urban popularitry football !!

The answer to life's problems are rarely found at the bottom of a beer glass - but it's always worth a look.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hard News wrote:

The peoples flag is...

...deepest red. Just like my neck.

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Mr. Laws , Air NewZealand Cup Final crowd = 12 000 (Final of Rugby's domestic comp)
Next Phoenix home game = 12000 + (just a regular home game),
If Phoenix have home finals game, crowd = 12 000 +... not bad for a "minor" sport.../ tongue-in-cheek

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Gourdietv3 wrote:

Look Stripes I have a job to do, so I really don't have time to deal with your smarmy reply.

[/quote]

Fair enough. I'll treat this as a first draft.

Gourdietv3 wrote:

"... and the rest of the world. Which plays football, in case you hadn't noticed."

Of course I've noticed. Have you noticed the rest of the world doesn't make a habit of cherry picking our players to earn millions?

This is quite muddled. The claim that a sportsman has to make a start in their own country is either trivial (they have to start playing where they live, as a small child) or false (plenty of footballers start their professional career by signing for a foreign club).

In general, I'm not sure if you're arguing that football is not #1 (nobody said it was) or that it can't be (which was your original position). It's probably meant to be the latter and the re-edit you didn't have time for would have made that clear. In that case, my reply would be to assert that I expect that things will change and football will become #1.

Gourdietv3 wrote:

"Why reinvent the wheel? Wales doesn't try to duplicate EPL. ï¿½

Well maybe they should, because Wales haven't been to a world cup since 1958. And remind me what Walesï¿½ national sport is? Good example Stripes. [/quote]

Thanks!

(For those that didn't know, football has higher participation, TV viewing and gate receipts than rugby in Wales, despite the myth of Wales as a rugby country.)

[QUOTE=Gourdietv3]ï¿½All NZ football needs is more access to the A-League, and there's every reason to expect this will happen."

What makes you think NZ Football will get more access to the A-League when the Phoenix aren't guaranteed a place after 2011?

Statements by the president of FIFA. Statements from Football Australia. NZ's status as the A-League's most convenient expansion market.

[QUOTE=Gourdietv3] I'm really starting to think you are Michael Laws.

I LOVE the idea of Laws as a closet footy fan! Might have to photoshop him into an avatar.

[QUOTE=Gourdietv3]You have selected ONE WORD in my blog and taken it far too seriously, and to say that my comments are damaging to the game is drawing a very VERY long bow.

I took the cue from your emphasis. You wrote it precisely as, "football will NEVER knock rugby off its perch". Coming from a man who claims the game as his "number one sport", that's quite a statement.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

seriously enough - wrap it up.

there is disagreement here - move on. wont be resolved.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Stripes - no one understands what you are on about. Jog on.

Founder

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

as Wayne said
Tony Smith
does a mighty fine job
in the bastion of Journalistic greatness
that is
The Christchurch Press

as for Red Flag's
I've written the odd record review for them
none by Richard Mark however