ANZAC Day

ANZAC Day

How do you you guys view ANZAC Day? I can't get my head around some aspects of it. 

Things like - At Gallipol,  NZ was part of a group trying to invade a sovereign state.
The nationalism that has started to grip the day.
The oddities.  Why for instance do fire brigades march? What's with all of these groups of school kids being marching? (Coerced even...?)

The dreadful speeches.  The one I went to last year had some naval type practically warmongering. An old soldier has a real go at him.

The lack of room for dissent. Roughly, ANZAC Day is for this opinon and this opinion only.

The weird way Turkey lets ANZAC Day be remembered. Bet they don't have Armenia Day?

He realised that nobody won the battle for Turkey and that the majority of the fallen had been sent to fight there not because their countries were in direct danger of attack from the German forces, but because of their ties to the British Commonwealth.

C-Diddy2012-04-22 13:14:58

Fascinating reply.
Do you think those that march have a fully formed idea of why they are there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banal_nationalism

Also an academic named Charles Tilly has written extensively on the role of warfare in the creation of modern nation-states. His argument covers a lot of ground but includes the idea that wars create a sense of national identity by uniting the people against an external enemy and creating a sense of abstract nationhood to go with the actual tangible representations of state control like military, police and infastructure. In reference to Gallipoli I think it has been suggested that Australia and NZ started to view themselves as seperate from Britain at this point because of the shared experience of the ANZACs (despite that fact that plenty of Brits and Canadians and others died there as well. I'm not certain about it, but I think Gallipoli had a similar impact on Turkey's rise to nation-state status after the end of the ottoman empire.

IMO ANZAC day is more of a "national" holiday than Waitangi day is to the majority of New Zealanders because it is far less controversial to most people - hence why people get so up in arms about disrespecting ANZAC day. The actual honouring the dead and respecting those who fought is just the superficial representation of a greater feeling that we are all New Zealanders, and this is inherently and qualitatively different to people from other countries. In short, it is a cornerstone of our national myth in the same way independence day is in America, for instance.

But I'm an international relations geek so maybe that's just my biased interpretation!

BZ, you know what your post means? ...I now have much reading to do.

just respect for the killed soldiers imo they were the ones that put their lives on the line

...but doesn't the current day go beyond that and sort of wallow in some kind of nationalistic thing?
(articulate huh?)

My opinion is that the Younger generation who may not have a full understanding of Australia and NZ military involvements of the last Century or a connection to anyone who may have fought in any of the conflicts that are remembered, will want to adapt the meaning of the day to suit their own personal needs.

Over the next few generations there will be less emphasis placed on commemorating the battles of WWI and WWII and more placed on a more broad sense of National pride as history for Gen Y is more about what happened 2hrs ago and less about what happened last century.

I did a Sunday Service today in Bondi (Overtime$) for my employers Waverley Council. I don't mind the observance but hate the religious angle that seems to take prime spot at these events. Then there's the wannabe "dignitaries" from within Council that use it to turn it into a publicity opp for themselves. They make me sick.

I also think the Aussies are ott with the way the observe the day.

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you C-Diddy? I think you're generally right about Gen Y (of which I am one) having the attention span of a blowfly, but I actually think that Anzac day is often the exception to the rule. You might be surprised at how much my generation still value remembering the past, and honouring our shared history, even if only for a moment. Sometimes it means even more because it's so rare. However, that may only be my personal opinion.

My friend emailed and offered turkiye2012-04-23 11:07:22

You mean flying over to Gallipoli and getting liquored up?

I see that Fairfax have now come up with this on the Stuff website - http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/last-post-first-light

Agreed. I blame this guy -


kiwi pie2012-04-23 16:08:15

No I mean over here in Australia but your point is also valid.
f**king Fanatics�.

THIS!

Paid my respects at ANZAC Cove twice when I lived in London (89th and 90th Anniversaries) and the thing that still stands out the most was the amount people there who travelled with the Fanatics�.

Wig wearing pompous gits!

I was born in the late 70's so I suppose I am Gen X. Also, I have a grandfather who fought for Australia in Borneo so I do have a connection to that era of Australia's history and what it means to that Generation. Sadly my Grandfather can no longer march with the remainder of his army mates.

Agreed, but I find that nationalistic fawning seems to be the order of the day.
Which dawn thing do you go to?

turkiye2012-04-23 18:03:17

I'll be going but I'll be getting paid, otherwise not.
Mum's Dad served in WWI
Loads of my Uncles from both sides of my family served in WWII.
All under an NZ flag.

I don't remember any of them being especially big on attending the dawn service, each to their own I guess.

The dawn service near Parliament.

Although NZ & Australia suffered many casualties, most people don't know that there were over 40000 British soldiers killed in the Gallipoli campaign.

I thought it was about half that.

Just what I have read. NZ suffered the highest casualty rate % wise.

From Wikipedia, using this source.


Dead Wounded Total Total Allies 44,092 96,937 141,029 � United Kingdom 21,255 52,230 73,485 � France (estimated) 10,000 17,000 27,000 � Australia[5] 8,709 19,441 28,150 � New Zealand[5] 2,721 4,752 7,473 � British India 1,358 3,421 4,779 � Newfoundland 49 93 142 Ottoman empire (estimated) 86,692 164,617 251,309 Total (both sides) 130,784 261,554 392,338

Cheers for that Robb.

They estimate the Turkish dead to 86,692? That's one hell of an estimation.

On behalf of? No other way of putting it but at that time we WERE British. Dominion status only granted in 1907.  Most of the NZ troops were British born.

I guess that begs the question. At what point does NZ actually start being NZ?
turkiye2012-04-24 13:25:10

Putting politics, imperialism and the rights and wrongs of that or if fact any conflict aside. The basic fact that ordinary blokes went to a place and either lived or died in an environment of such mind-numbing terror should be acknowledged.   ForteanTimes2012-04-25 05:42:07

Agreed.

I think that TVNZ should re-run the film "Gallipoli" around ANZAC day for the next 5 years.

It's been a while since we've had to endure that.

Lest we forget.