Democalypse 2017 - The Election Thread

People who attend university are drawn from wealthier backgrounds - that is a fact

I think people view student loans the wrong way.  A student loan is essentially an additional tax you pay for the benefit of attending university (you only repay it when you earn over a certain threshold so it's basically a form of taxation).

No, Thatcher and Reagen saw to that.

Furthermore the aggressive smashing of the trade unions ...

I would hardly call it smashing the unions.

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=UN_D...

Yep, the graphs which show improved productivity without improved wages just shows the difference going into the pockets of the few.

So if the few have all the money and they own all the businesses and are prepared to take a chance-- what is the problem.

I am just an ordinary working person, but it people with money that take a chance and employ other people deserve it.

I gotta defend this on at least three counts:

1)- it promotes social mobility and rewards work. Both my parents were the first in their family to go to Uni. Sure it's not the only method, but damn if it doesn't help a lot

2) it is a better deal for the middle class than paying school fees from 13-22 for their precious offspring. It's a better organised system. In Aussie for example the middle class feels it has to pay for private schools. 

3) It is a bit of intergenerational fairness. A lot of professionals need to go to university. We are saying that they should come out with a loan to pay off and housing racing out of their reach to save for. It is one way to address that. 

We benefit from being a more educated society. 

I don't think that is completely regressive. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it is a social good that we should fund. It is not a bottom of the cliff thing, but like ECE will create a number of benefits.

Sure not everyone wants to go into the professions, but most professions require qualifications and are gate kept through a degree minimum. 

28 degrees at 3am in Manilla.

No that's fair. I prioritised paying off my loan and did. But what I really should have done is left the bloody loan and put a deposit together for a house like some colleagues. Eh. Financial literacy. 

However, there is going to be large costs failing on future generations as the baby boomers retire and hog resourses such as housing, while demanding more in health costs and super. We do need more equity in the system, but giving the younger generation a little isn't really a problem there in my opinion. 

Another factor is that people are going to need to retrain as work changes, but that's on the way. It's better to have someone training than paying them the dole surely?

As to Ryan's point- I think there may be some regional bond scheme or some such being suggested?

Will Dunne stay in Parliament? Could be known as the Minister of Fence Sitting, Flip Flop and the Minister of Self preservation. Especially the last one.

You're thinking of someone like Elon Musk who dreamed big, took a risk, and worked 80 hours a week to make it work, unfortunately most Billionaires aren't like that. The vast majority of money is inherited rather than made. These people aren't in the risk taking business, they're in the destroy the competition and drive down wages to increase profits business. They think that they deserve more and better than others and don't care about creating jobs or paying a fair wage (although they might) as much as they care about increasing profits and decreasing costs.

I am not talk about him or any other billionaires just ordinary small business owners who employ 5/10 people. They are the backbone of the country and probably employ 80% of the workers.

But they aren't the ones who are benefiting from that gap between productivity and wages.

Brian Fallow the subversive economics editor of the NZ Herald today pointing out that wages across the board have actually decreased in real terms. Dunno if your assumption in sentence 2 holds up. That's a lot of people missing out.

lol @ Barnaby Joyce

Nice to see Peter Dunne involved!

The Minister of Self Preservation

The Minister of Knee-Jerk Reactions

No surprise if his run finishes next month. 

Aka The Minister or Flip Flop and the Minister of Fence Sitting.

Green vote collapse according to TVNZ

Yep, under the threshold right now - fell something like 11%

This is the problem with the current system, people don't want their vote to be wasted so if a party is hovering around or under that 5% mark then people will vote for a party which is polling higher.

I vote Green and think that they are the only party which has any hope of saving our economy, however without the Greens a lot of people who support Labor but vote National will return. There is a major branding issue with the Green Party and people really don't understand what they stand for / are scared of them for no reason.

Yup

Because quite reasonably people (a) don't know whether they are (symbolically) voting for James Shaw or Metirea Turei when they vote Green and (b) many people don't think that left wing ideas will bring prosperity to the country

Why would people think they're voting for Turei, she stood down? I'm sure that the Greens will get above 5% but it's clear that they're going to be greatly diminished.

Green policy isn't left wing, like most parties they have a mixture of left, right, and centrist policies. But they're the only ones who take into account the fact that we are at the cusp of a revolution in technology and labor.

Most vote for themselves, which is why tax cuts buy votes even though our health system is barely functioning.

The Greens are left wing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_of_Aotea...

Also, there are now a few tools to help inform people of various party policy/stances on issues. 

On the fence is a fairly quick and easy tool - not much depth in policy and some of the questions are not great but a good start

Policy is a much more in depth tool which outlines more policy for each party.

And that is one reason the move was so terrible.  The greens, since being cut out by Clark, have seemingly been trying to present a sensible yet progressive option that potentially appeals to maybe 15-20% of the electorate, and were heading towards being a stable third party that would have significant influence on a Labour Government.  Now, even if they make it in (which i think they will), they have ceded all influence to Winston First, and any potential progressive influence will be swamped by reactionary populism.

is Shaw a shocking leader?

I'm talking symbolically about the Turei/Shaw difference in the Green party.  I think that "coalition" is breaking down because plenty of people who vote for the Green's on environmental ground are pretty horrified with the "Turei" part of the party's angle on some other aspects.

Even if you believe that to be irrefutably true, which many others do not, it's quite reasonable to be dubious about the ability of the New Zealand Green party to make the correct adjustments to the structure of our economy to head off those changes.

No NZ party is purely on either side of the political spectrum, I should have said that their policy isn't purely left wing. The whole concept of wings is just a way of categorizing and dismissing things out of hand. It's just an excuse for people to avoid actually looking at policy. Lumping things into categories without attempting to understand them is an unfortunate human trait which leads to most problems with our society.

I think you are wrong by saying that wings is just a way categorizing and dismissing things. I thing most people look at policy before making a decision.A lot of what the Greens say is great, but in theory it does  not work.

Regardless what you say, the Green Party is left wing. I don't care, as in a democracy everyone has the right to chose. Also if they were to get in it won't affect me.

I agree that the left and right continuum is a bit outdated but there is no doubt in my mind that a Green party that was strong on Green and environmental issues but moderate on social and economic issues would be at the centre of governments.  At the moment the Green's look a lot like the Alliance and they and they take fairly standard left wing positions on most economic and social issues (although not exclusively) 

I'd say it's actually quite the opposite. I'd say most people just accept a policy as 'left' or 'right' or whatever depending on who it comes from, and then accept or dismiss it in accordance with their views of the latter.

My observation would be that actual understanding of policy (or implications and ramifications of policy) is quite poor by the general populace here.

Holy shark, I don't believe it!!

The Minister of Flip-Flop, The Minister of Fence Sitting & The Minister of Self Preservation has at long last quit Parliament...after the election. Hopefully no more United Future. Good riddence Peter Dunne.

Dunne going gives Winston even more influence

Bevan, what have you been up to??

I would love for someone who has watched this to justify why people would want someone so incapable of discussing policy or making coherent arguments in Government.

He's funny though.

Also, these people who attended one of his rallies in Rangiora:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201...

(2:19 onwards)

Staggering.