Rommel and Kiwi troops

I recently read an account of Rommel's conversation with the captured NZ officer George H Clifton where he berates the Kiwis for their "gangster" tactics in killing unarmed prisoners of war after what must have been the Breakout at Minqar Qaim.

The account I read which was from a quite recent book states that Clifton answers Rommel stating  that the massacre was due to their being a "large number of Maoris in the Division".

I've looked into this and other sources offer a different account that suggests that Clifton actually informed Rommel that the Kiwi Troops Bayoneted German wounded as some German Troops had feigned death/injury and afterwards had fired on the passing Kiwi troops and thrown grenades. Rommel accepted this as a sound tactic. He also documented that he thought the NZ troops the finest in the Commonwealth Army.

To me the second account seems more likely due to the detail it contained.

Interestingly I'm currently reading John Keegan's History of Warfare where he talks about studies of Maori Inter Iwi battle tactics. Basically they used a human form of Blitzkrieg. The strongest/fastest warriors started in the front rank and would run through the enemy lines slashing and maiming the enemy rather than killing, the killing was left up to warriors following behind. This tactic was quite devastating due to the speed of the attacks which involve  constantly pushing forward and keeping moving it would have been very disheartening to the enemy.

The seems to be some similarity with the tactics used at Breakout at Minqar Qaim and I wonder if Maori troops consciously or unconsciously used  traditional methods of fighting? After all the NZ wars where only 70 odd years before and I would imagine that those soldiers in WW2 would have been very familiar with how their ancestors fought. I reckon in the dead of night with death and terror all around it would be quite sensible to fall back onto your heritage and culture to steel yourself to survive.

Anyone know if Clifton spoke of his meeting with Rommel after the war? Apart from talking to Journalists after her made it to London?

Or anyone read any other accounts of the Battle?

I've also read that The NZ wars was one of the first time trench warfare was used against firearms and cannon, effectively negating their effect.

I think it might have been mentioned in the series "The New Zealand Wars" by James Belich.

Hardly surprising since this is what they were up against

Not really sure, Berserkers were considered almost Shamanic warriors, some believe they took magic mushrooms to help them achieve their state of fury and violence. Berserkers was not a tactic as such they were individuals that became berserk and none had any control of them from what I've read. The Maori appeared to use the above tactic in an organised and controlled fashion.

A good read is Egil's Saga who witnessed and fought a few Berserkers and was probably a Berserker himself.

Or you could watch Eric the Viking.

Remember reading from the 'Rommel Diaries' that Rommel was spewing after the NZ 2nd Division escaped one of his encirclement traps (during his first offensive in '42?).  He rated the Kiwi division as the best in the 8th Army...Monty too, for he wanted to use them during the Normandy Landings but couldn't due to the Italian campaign...apparently Maori troops preferred Kraut weapons, as they made "more noise" than British empire arms...

With regards to FT's first posting...let's be honest - everyone was pretty bad in WWII.  But the only good kraut was a dead kraut.  No matter how.  Charles Upham wouldn't even allow Kraut-made cars on his property after the war.

Yeah but there was a well established code of honour between British and German officer classes that you did not shoot the wounded or prisoners that was taken very seriously by some. Particularly after the Geneva Convention in 1929.

 It was the SS and not the regular German army that were responsible for murdering the Americans later in the war after Normandy. I think though that Rommel understood that in this case his own soldiers had broken "the rules" here by feigning death and then firing on Commonwealth troops. He realised that made them fair game for retaliation. Rommel embodied honour on the battlefield and that is why he is so respected by all sides.

It was only in the later stages of the war where things got bad on both sides. Rommel himself described the Africa Campaign as "War without hate" due to there being hardly any atrocities. Still I would imagine in the heat of battle it would be very hard to surrender.

Hitler was keen on shooting prisoners but there are accounts of generals by passively disobeying the order by not passing it on to troops or persuading Hitler to change his mind.

edit: You probably know most of this anyhow.

Fortean,

Recently saw a bit on Minqar Qaim on a doco and it was stated that it was an unfortunate consequence that the part of the German line that the Kiwis chose to break out through happened to be a field hospital (guess that can be taken with a grain of salt maybe), given this and the fact the breakout was at night it all added up to a pretty horrific incident.

Never knew this

Anthony Fokker who built planes for the Germans in WWI was Dutch and had offered his services to the British and was turned down so he offered his services to to the Germans.The rest is history.

Just think how many British lives and planes would have been saved if he had worked for us?

I saw that this afternoon on the History Channel. News to me as well.

I wonder how much it would cost to make a replica one? I like the idea of flying around in one of those planes......without someone shooting at me of course.

Doesnt Peter Jackson have a bunch of WW1 replicas? 

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/node

Or you can see some at Wings over Wairarapa or Warbirds over Wanaka.

That Omaka place looks good. Some nice planes Has a Fokker Eindecker will deffo try and get down there at some point.

Just reading about Mexico - During Mayan times warriors would chuck "Hormet bombs" at each other. Basically hornet nests. That would be a bastard having one of those land next to you.

A hornet sting makes a wasp or bee sting seem like a minor itch. They friggen hurt.