I guess it's hardly surprising that in this day an age covert troops are going to be at risk of being published in papers or more likely appear on youtube etc.
Still a pretty dumb thing to do by the paper and I would think it puts his family at risk as well. Mind you there was a time you never knew who the SAS were until after the conflict, I thought he was out of the service when he got his VC, turns out I was wrong.
I think the paper is pretty flippant about it, modern warfare is not confined to the battle field alone and some organizations are not fussed about taking the struggle to the oppositions home.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3250647/Photos-emerge-of-SAS-in-action
Still a pretty dumb thing to do by the paper and I would think it puts his family at risk as well. Mind you there was a time you never knew who the SAS were until after the conflict, I thought he was out of the service when he got his VC, turns out I was wrong.
I think the paper is pretty flippant about it, modern warfare is not confined to the battle field alone and some organizations are not fussed about taking the struggle to the oppositions home.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3250647/Photos-emerge-of-SAS-in-action
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Gaff of large proportions.
However what was he doing walking around without his goggles on like the other one? You'd think that they would be aware of journos lurking behind every insurgent.
Not good anyway as you say for his family.
However what was he doing walking around without his goggles on like the other one? You'd think that they would be aware of journos lurking behind every insurgent.
Not good anyway as you say for his family.
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
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If the Taliban managed to kill him, it'll be a huge blow to NZ morale.
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When I first saw the picture this morning I figured the only reason they had published it was because it was clearly Apiata and the other guy you couldn't tell anyway.
Everyone knows he is in the SAS, but yeah still a dumb thing to publish really without clearing with the NZDF
www.kiwifromthecouch.blogspot.com
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Elite/Special forces personnel have a high price on there heads if captured. For example British Paras in Northern Ireland, & after the failed Dieppe raid in 1942 Adolf Hitler gave a directive to execute any captured British Commandos. Notice in this morning's pic that both have beards, I would say that they have grown them to try & blend in with the local population.
I can hear bloody Keith Locke saying there should be more information about where our troops are serving. He, & people like him, just don't get that the SAS conduct covert operations!!
I can hear bloody Keith Locke saying there should be more information about where our troops are serving. He, & people like him, just don't get that the SAS conduct covert operations!!
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Congratulations to The New York Times, NZ Herald,Dom Post, Stuff.co.nz, Fairfax and everyone who printed those perfectly focussed pictures of our SAS troops.
You've just issued invitations to the modern day equivalent of a crucifixion.
Readily identifiable, delivered up as some sort of sacrifice crying out for "Instant Fatwah", to the portals of every would-be martyr or assassin in the muslim world.
Nice work.
AND with accompanying article so there can be no doubt.
AND delivered by their very own people, here in New Zealand.
AND now, standing by with baited breath to see what might happen next...
Be it on your heads, all of you who are responsible, should these troops suffer through your actions.
Another example of the media as instigators of the news for tabloid sensation , whilst purporting to be impassive observers of the truth, and defending the public's " right to know."
Shameful. RedGed2010-01-22 00:33:01
You've just issued invitations to the modern day equivalent of a crucifixion.
Readily identifiable, delivered up as some sort of sacrifice crying out for "Instant Fatwah", to the portals of every would-be martyr or assassin in the muslim world.
Nice work.
AND with accompanying article so there can be no doubt.
AND delivered by their very own people, here in New Zealand.
AND now, standing by with baited breath to see what might happen next...
Be it on your heads, all of you who are responsible, should these troops suffer through your actions.
Another example of the media as instigators of the news for tabloid sensation , whilst purporting to be impassive observers of the truth, and defending the public's " right to know."
Shameful. RedGed2010-01-22 00:33:01
Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!
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Congratulations to The New York Times, NZ Herald,Dom Post, Stuff.co.nz, Fairfax and everyone who printed those perfectly focussed pictures of our SAS troops.
You've just issued invitations to the modern day equivalent of a crucifixion.
Readily identifiable, delivered up as some sort of sacrifice crying out for "Instant Fatwah", to the portals of every would-be martyr or assassin in the muslim world.
Nice work.
AND with accompanying article so there can be no doubt.
AND delivered by their very own people, here in New Zealand.
AND now, standing by with baited breath to see what might happen next...
Be it on your heads, all of you who are responsible, should these troops suffer through your actions.
Another example of the media as instigators of the news for tabloid sensation , whilst purporting to be impassive observers of the truth, and defending the public's " right to know."
Shameful.
You've just issued invitations to the modern day equivalent of a crucifixion.
Readily identifiable, delivered up as some sort of sacrifice crying out for "Instant Fatwah", to the portals of every would-be martyr or assassin in the muslim world.
Nice work.
AND with accompanying article so there can be no doubt.
AND delivered by their very own people, here in New Zealand.
AND now, standing by with baited breath to see what might happen next...
Be it on your heads, all of you who are responsible, should these troops suffer through your actions.
Another example of the media as instigators of the news for tabloid sensation , whilst purporting to be impassive observers of the truth, and defending the public's " right to know."
Shameful.
Exactly what he said!
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!
The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!
The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!
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He'll be Fine, the SAS can bend matter with their minds.
We will never fully decide who has won the football.
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I don't think this is really putting them under any more risk. A large amount of Afghanis already want to kill them - I don't think photos of them would necessarily increase that. It would be different if they were identified whilst doing undercover operations, but these guys clearly aren't. If they are walking around the streets of Afghanistan with guns and army uniforms, they obviously aren't that worried about being identified as foreign troops.
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So i guess the question is why have our best SAS troops at risk doing routine out in the open stuff? (I dont have much knowledge of this sort of thing,just the question i found self asking)
Allegedly
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Makes you wonder how is it that pedophiles and convicted criminals can be given name suppression and can walk the streets anonymously but our elite soldiers risking their lives every day for their country are afforded no protection from the media?
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Still, awesome game face! He looks one serious BAMF.
I'm picking Cliff Curtis or perhaps Samuel L. to play him in the movie.
I'm picking Cliff Curtis or perhaps Samuel L. to play him in the movie.
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I don't think this is really putting them under any more risk. A large amount of Afghanis already want to kill them - I don't think photos of them would necessarily increase that. It would be different if they were identified whilst doing undercover operations, but these guys clearly aren't. If they are walking around the streets of Afghanistan with guns and army uniforms, they obviously aren't that worried about being identified as foreign troops.
Its that the image of NZers most well known, highest decorated soldier in recent times has been connected with the soldier. Kill him and NZ will be Gutted. NZ Gutted means more chance NZ will leave which means less enemies for Taliban.
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Papers should be able to print what they want.
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Arsenal is Frank Packer incarnate.
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I don't think this is really putting them under any more risk. A large amount of Afghanis already want to kill them - I don't think photos of them would necessarily increase that. It would be different if they were identified whilst doing undercover operations, but these guys clearly aren't. If they are walking around the streets of Afghanistan with guns and army uniforms, they obviously aren't that worried about being identified as foreign troops.
Its that the image of NZers most well known, highest decorated soldier in recent times has been connected with the soldier. Kill him and NZ will be Gutted. NZ Gutted means more chance NZ will leave which means less enemies for Taliban.
I'm not sure how much the Taliban / Afghani opposition to foreign forces actually care about him though. It's possible that they could see it as an oppourtunity to kill him and reduce overseas support for the war, but I think that argument is pretty weak. New Zealand is a small force in the war, and I'm not sure it would make much sense for them to go out of their way to kill that one particular person. They are generally after maximum carnage - preferably Americans it seems. Without actually hearing anything from the Afghans themselves, then it's rather speculative.
I'm pretty much against censorship. It can be justifiable under very good reasons, but I don't think this case would pass the test. Our Prime Ministers seem overly paranoid about releasing any information about our foreign troops - other countries are more open.
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Arsenal is Frank Packer incarnate.
Is that going to be my new byline? (no pun intended, seriously).
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Well, News? (Pun very much intended).
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"A free press can, of course, be good or bad, but, most certainly without freedom, the press will never be anything but bad."
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I don't think this is really putting them under any more risk. A large amount of Afghanis already want to kill them - I don't think photos of them would necessarily increase that. It would be different if they were identified whilst doing undercover operations, but these guys clearly aren't. If they are walking around the streets of Afghanistan with guns and army uniforms, they obviously aren't that worried about being identified as foreign troops.
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I'm not sure how much the Taliban / Afghani opposition to foreign forces actually care about him though. It's possible that they could see it as an oppourtunity to kill him and reduce overseas support for the war, but I think that argument is pretty weak. New Zealand is a small force in the war, and I'm not sure it would make much sense for them to go out of their way to kill that one particular person. They are generally after maximum carnage - preferably Americans it seems. Without actually hearing anything from the Afghans themselves, then it's rather speculative.
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I'm pretty much against censorship. It can be justifiable under very good reasons, but I don't think this case would pass the test. Our Prime Ministers seem overly paranoid about releasing any information about our foreign troops - other countries are more open.
It is fairly weak but its an argument, anyone should accept it how they like. I personally don't think anything would happen.
I can understand paranoia though, the SAS is suppose to be secretive. Even the location of their base in NZ is suppose to be secret. If our general army was there I'm sure he'd be more open.
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The Government and the NZ Defence Force are being total hypocrites over this. They were more than happy to parade Willie Apiata to the world when it suited them and to try and put NZ's presence in Afghanistan in a good light. They knew that his career in the field was effectively over when they did so. Apiata has also chosen to go back to Afghanistan fully aware of the risks. Full credit to him - he's clearly a brave guy. But I hardly think the Herald has jeapordised his security that much more than it already was. He has a book out ffs!
terminator_x2010-01-22 20:14:36
terminator_x2010-01-22 20:14:36
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Make no mistake about it - publishing unmasked photos of our NZ SAS troops directly endangers their lives and reduces their ability to function effectively.
Sure, tell us the story. but FFS, why propagate more global search engine registrations of their images by hanging them out to dry in our National newspapers and online news services?
We never needed to see these photos.
Show a file photo instead.
This is, imo, the media deliberately courting controversy to "juice up" a story, maybe sell some more papers/online subscriptions
and it is reckless endangerment to boot.
Free press..what a joke.
Tabloid-type behavior masquerading as responsible journalism more like.
RedGed2010-01-22 21:46:22
Sure, tell us the story. but FFS, why propagate more global search engine registrations of their images by hanging them out to dry in our National newspapers and online news services?
We never needed to see these photos.
Show a file photo instead.
This is, imo, the media deliberately courting controversy to "juice up" a story, maybe sell some more papers/online subscriptions
and it is reckless endangerment to boot.
Free press..what a joke.
Tabloid-type behavior masquerading as responsible journalism more like.
RedGed2010-01-22 21:46:22
Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!
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All I'm saying is that Willie Apiata is so far past the point of being "unmasked" that the NZ Herald's actions seem pretty irrelevant.
I don't even really care about defending the Herald, it's the hypocrisy of the NZDF and the Government that gets me. They put a target on Willie Apiata's back because they wanted an Afghanistan good news story, and now they're acting all holier than thou. If they were serious about protecting the identities of our SAS troops most of us would still have no idea who Willie Apiata is.
I don't even really care about defending the Herald, it's the hypocrisy of the NZDF and the Government that gets me. They put a target on Willie Apiata's back because they wanted an Afghanistan good news story, and now they're acting all holier than thou. If they were serious about protecting the identities of our SAS troops most of us would still have no idea who Willie Apiata is.
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TX, you make a fair point.
I think you will find though Willie Apiata was "outed" in front of the masses because of a desire by the government of the day,the Labour Government's Helen Clarke and Co, to maximise the "feel good" factor of the public announcement of the award.
The cynically-minded among us might say it was a political stunt to engender support, especially among Maori. Yes the NZDF and Apiata's CO agreed to his outing.
I don't think they envisaged him going back out in the field though.
Its one thing being photographed in NZ on his own ground.
Its another matter entirely being pictured (or framed ) as the foreign oppressor or invader... They now know he's there. He's a real live hero and it makes him an ideal target. A juicy propaganda target,( like the figure in the crosshairs of your avatar) pure and simple.
RedGed2010-01-22 22:25:21
I think you will find though Willie Apiata was "outed" in front of the masses because of a desire by the government of the day,the Labour Government's Helen Clarke and Co, to maximise the "feel good" factor of the public announcement of the award.
The cynically-minded among us might say it was a political stunt to engender support, especially among Maori. Yes the NZDF and Apiata's CO agreed to his outing.
I don't think they envisaged him going back out in the field though.
Its one thing being photographed in NZ on his own ground.
Its another matter entirely being pictured (or framed ) as the foreign oppressor or invader... They now know he's there. He's a real live hero and it makes him an ideal target. A juicy propaganda target,( like the figure in the crosshairs of your avatar) pure and simple.
RedGed2010-01-22 22:25:21
Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!
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[QUOTE=ForteanTimes
Still a pretty dumb thing to do by the paper and I would think it puts his family at risk as well.
[/QUOTE]
How exactly?
Still a pretty dumb thing to do by the paper and I would think it puts his family at risk as well.
[/QUOTE]
How exactly?
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe.
20/5/20
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe.
20/5/20
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Guys, don't be kidded. There's no more need for SAS solidiers to be hidden under layers of secrecy than for any other troops. It's just a lie sown by "the establishment' to keep the myth of "special forces superiority alive.
Don't be fooled.
By the way if you want pics of NZ troops in Afghanistan here's a start...
dairyflat2010-01-23 01:39:28
Don't be fooled.
By the way if you want pics of NZ troops in Afghanistan here's a start...
dairyflat2010-01-23 01:39:28
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe.
20/5/20
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe.
20/5/20
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TX, you make a fair point.
I think you will find though Willie Apiata was "outed" in front of the masses because of a desire by the government of the day,the Labour Government's Helen Clarke and Co, to maximise the "feel good" factor of the public announcement of the award.
The cynically-minded among us might say it was a political stunt to engender support, especially among Maori. Yes the NZDF and Apiata's CO agreed to his outing.
I don't think they envisaged him going back out in the field though.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. And I don't think it's being cynical to say so.
[QUOTE=RedGed]Its one thing being photographed in NZ on his own ground.
Its another matter entirely being pictured (or framed ) as the foreign oppressor or invader... They now know he's there. He's a real live hero and it makes him an ideal target. A juicy propaganda target,( like the figure in the crosshairs of your avatar) pure and simple.
I think you will find though Willie Apiata was "outed" in front of the masses because of a desire by the government of the day,the Labour Government's Helen Clarke and Co, to maximise the "feel good" factor of the public announcement of the award.
The cynically-minded among us might say it was a political stunt to engender support, especially among Maori. Yes the NZDF and Apiata's CO agreed to his outing.
I don't think they envisaged him going back out in the field though.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. And I don't think it's being cynical to say so.
[QUOTE=RedGed]Its one thing being photographed in NZ on his own ground.
Its another matter entirely being pictured (or framed ) as the foreign oppressor or invader... They now know he's there. He's a real live hero and it makes him an ideal target. A juicy propaganda target,( like the figure in the crosshairs of your avatar) pure and simple.
I disagree. The Taliban don't need to see a picture of Willie Apiata in the NZ Herald to know he's in Kabul. They only need to go outside! He's walking around unmasked engaging in gunfights with... the Taliban!!
I think people are being too hasty to simply accept the NZDF's and the Govt's spin on this.
FACT: They created the "celebrity" Willie Apiata.
FACT: They ended his ability to operate anonymously in the field when they did so.
FACT: They sent Willie Apiata back to Afghanistan. It was not "his choice" to do so, as widely reported. The Army does not operate on choice, soldiers do what they are ordered to do. The Army clearly did not see sufficient risk to either Cpl Apiata or his colleagues for him not to go back.
FACT: Cpl Apiata is also walking around Kabul unmasked. Unless he is in defiance of orders this a further indication that the perceived risk of him being identified and putting himself or his colleagues in any additional harm is low.
Don't believe the hype kids. I know it's a stretch but in theory the only reason our troops are in Afghanistan is to protect our right to think freely. You might as well use it.
terminator_x2010-01-23 09:12:05
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FACT: It was the last government that created the Apiata celebrity, and this government has every right to take a different approach to the secrecy, or lack thereof, of our special forces.
FACT: Apiata did have a choice. He could have retired from the army after receiving the VC, and I bet you that the NZDF head honchos thought long and hard about protecting him from the bullets by giving him a desk job or refusing to send him out because of the morale issue.
POSSIBILITY: The Taliban may actually have no idea who he is, and if they did the beard may have been a decent disguise until now. I certainly didn't pick him as the bloke in the photo.
FACT: Apiata did have a choice. He could have retired from the army after receiving the VC, and I bet you that the NZDF head honchos thought long and hard about protecting him from the bullets by giving him a desk job or refusing to send him out because of the morale issue.
POSSIBILITY: The Taliban may actually have no idea who he is, and if they did the beard may have been a decent disguise until now. I certainly didn't pick him as the bloke in the photo.
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FACT: It was the last government that created the Apiata celebrity, and this government has every right to take a different approach to the secrecy, or lack thereof, of our special forces.[/QUOTE]
You are confusing two different issues - a) whether Apiata should have been made a celebrity in the first place and b) the fact that he is one. The current Govt have never once questioned the decsion to award him a VC and go public to the extent that NZDF did. They have never once questioned the desicion to send him back to Afghanistan. They are entirely complicit in the perceived threat to his welfare.
Apiata has a choice about whether he remains in the army, that's all. If the army didn't want him in Afghanisatan he wouldn't be there, whatever his own wishes. The army are the ones putting him at risk.
[QUOTE=Critical_Lemon]POSSIBILITY: The Taliban may actually have no idea who he is, and if they did the beard may have been a decent disguise until now. I certainly didn't pick him as the bloke in the photo.
You are confusing two different issues - a) whether Apiata should have been made a celebrity in the first place and b) the fact that he is one. The current Govt have never once questioned the decsion to award him a VC and go public to the extent that NZDF did. They have never once questioned the desicion to send him back to Afghanistan. They are entirely complicit in the perceived threat to his welfare.
FACT: Apiata did have a choice. He could have retired from the army after receiving the VC, and I bet you that the NZDF head honchos thought long and hard about protecting him from the bullets by giving him a desk job or refusing to send him out because of the morale issue.
Apiata has a choice about whether he remains in the army, that's all. If the army didn't want him in Afghanisatan he wouldn't be there, whatever his own wishes. The army are the ones putting him at risk.
[QUOTE=Critical_Lemon]POSSIBILITY: The Taliban may actually have no idea who he is, and if they did the beard may have been a decent disguise until now. I certainly didn't pick him as the bloke in the photo.
Hopefully you're right.
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Gaff of large proportions.
However what was he doing walking around without his goggles on like the other one?
However what was he doing walking around without his goggles on like the other one?
Because after his ammo ran out he used the goggles as a sing shot to take out insurgent 1 & 2 before using the elastic as a garrotte for #3
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Guns don't kill people, Willie Apiata's stares do.
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Good editorial from the Dom Post about this:
And here's the big back-down from NZDF and the Government yesterday. Smoooooth guys...
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Headline is superb "Editorial: Apiata's cover was already blown"
Cover? What cover?
Cover? What cover?
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe.
20/5/20
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe.
20/5/20
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Willie Apiata ordered a Big Mac at Burger King, and got one.
According to Einstein's theory of relativity, Willie Apiata can actually roundhouse kick you yesterday.
Willie Apiata destroyed the periodic table, because Willie Apiata only recognizes the element of surprise
Willie Apiata can touch MC Hammer
Willie Apiata can divide by zero
Some people wear Superman pajamas. Superman wears Willie Apiata pajamas.
Willie Apiata has the greatest Poker-Face of all time.
He won the 1983 World Series of Poker, despite holding only a Joker, a Get out of Jail Free Monopoly card, a 2 of clubs, 7 of spades and a green #4 card from the game UNO.
Willie Apiata once kicked a horse in the chin. Its descendants are known today as Giraffes.
It takes Willie Apiata 20 minutes to watch 60 Minutes.
Willie Apiata CAN believe it's not butter.
If you spell Willie Apiata in Scrabble, you win. Forever.
Willie Apiata can win a game of Connect Four in only three moves.
According to Einstein's theory of relativity, Willie Apiata can actually roundhouse kick you yesterday.
Willie Apiata destroyed the periodic table, because Willie Apiata only recognizes the element of surprise
Willie Apiata can touch MC Hammer
Willie Apiata can divide by zero
Some people wear Superman pajamas. Superman wears Willie Apiata pajamas.
Willie Apiata has the greatest Poker-Face of all time.
He won the 1983 World Series of Poker, despite holding only a Joker, a Get out of Jail Free Monopoly card, a 2 of clubs, 7 of spades and a green #4 card from the game UNO.
Willie Apiata once kicked a horse in the chin. Its descendants are known today as Giraffes.
It takes Willie Apiata 20 minutes to watch 60 Minutes.
Willie Apiata CAN believe it's not butter.
If you spell Willie Apiata in Scrabble, you win. Forever.
Willie Apiata can win a game of Connect Four in only three moves.
Human cloning is outlawed because if Willie Apiata were cloned, then it would be possible for a Willie Apiata roundhouse kick to meet another Willie Apiata roundhouse kick. Physicists theorize that this contact would end the universe.
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When Willie Apiata goes to sleep, he leaves the lights on - not because he's scared of the dark, but because the dark is scared of him.
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