Paul you have my support in joining this new group.
Things that make you go hmmmm
@PaulM
Society is inherently inequitable, any sort of quota is always going to be a step up on the inequality that is baked right into our way of life. There's plenty of research to show that equality quotas work in actual fact.
And as to your other point, the reasons I think this is a pointless discussion:
a) I'm not going to convince you that you're wrong and you're not going to convince me that I'm wrong so we'll just go in a circle, and
b) As news said this is a football forum.
Please, show me the evidence. I'm very interested.
If this is a pointless discussion, why did you enter it in the first place, and why did you only claim it to be pointless now?
Society is inherently inequitable, any sort of quota is always going to be a step up on the inequality that is baked right into our way of life. There's plenty of research to show that equality quotas work in actual fact.
You and I have had pretty robust civilised debate on this sort of topic in a couple of threads now. However I've not seen you discuss the point I keep making about Equality-of-Opportunity versus enforced Equality-of-Outcome.
What are your thoughts on that? Why do you believe that enforcing discriminatory policies to try and achieve your personal preferred outcome is better than simply making sure everyone has an equal opportunity to do whatever it is that they want to do?
Please, show me the evidence. I'm very interested.
If this is a pointless discussion, why did you enter it in the first place, and why did you only claim it to be pointless now?
A quick google shows plenty of articles for and against, I'm going to find a for one and post it and you're going to find an against one and post it.
I think you'll find I didn't post that this debate was pointless now, I posted that comment five days ago after people were simply quoting what they chose from articles and also my comments and completely loosing context. There have been several debates on the same lines and they all end up in the same way.
I actually feel sorry for people who are so stuck in the old ways, there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
Please, show me the evidence. I'm very interested.
If this is a pointless discussion, why did you enter it in the first place, and why did you only claim it to be pointless now?
A quick google shows plenty of articles for and against, I'm going to find a for one and post it and you're going to find an against one and post it.
I think you'll find I didn't post it now, I posted that comment five days ago after people were simply quoting what they chose from articles and also my comments and completely loosing context.
I actually feel sorry for people who are so stuck in the old ways, there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
Yes, I have experienced the same thing when googling, it's a fair point. The fact is there are a bunch of smart people on both sides of this argument, writing compelling pieces.
I hope you are not referring to me in the last comment, as I am not stuck in any kind of old ways. As I have pointed out, I am in support of change, but not the type of change that is discriminatory, and is simply trying to enforce an outcome that some people think is the right one, when it may well not be.
If we work towards equality-of-opportunity, then we can't fail, it's logically very simple.
Society is inherently inequitable, any sort of quota is always going to be a step up on the inequality that is baked right into our way of life. There's plenty of research to show that equality quotas work in actual fact.
You and I have had pretty robust civilised debate on this sort of topic in a couple of threads now. However I've not seen you discuss the point I keep making about Equality-of-Opportunity versus enforced Equality-of-Outcome.
What are your thoughts on that? Why do you believe that enforcing discriminatory policies to try and achieve your personal preferred outcome is better than simply making sure everyone has an equal opportunity to do whatever it is that they want to do?
The problem is there isn't an equality of opportunity, statistically as a middle class white person whatever I do I'm going to end up better than a high achieving lower class person of another skin color. The law is colour and gender blind, and I'm very proud of the legacy that NZ has, but it's very clear that there is not equal opportunities.
there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
This is very naive, and totally focussed on your own generation.
What's naive about it? If you look at the accelerating rate of change then there is no indication whatsoever that it's going to slow down, if anything it's been accelerating since the renaissance.
I wonder what generation you think I am, also generations are pretty much redundant now days, the further we get away from WW1 the less relevant they are.
Basically I see massive disruptions in our way of life from crypto currencies to automation, the increase in globalisation and removal of borders, and a general leveling of societies around the planet.
Society is inherently inequitable, any sort of quota is always going to be a step up on the inequality that is baked right into our way of life. There's plenty of research to show that equality quotas work in actual fact.
You and I have had pretty robust civilised debate on this sort of topic in a couple of threads now. However I've not seen you discuss the point I keep making about Equality-of-Opportunity versus enforced Equality-of-Outcome.
What are your thoughts on that? Why do you believe that enforcing discriminatory policies to try and achieve your personal preferred outcome is better than simply making sure everyone has an equal opportunity to do whatever it is that they want to do?
The problem is there isn't an equality of opportunity, statistically as a middle class white person whatever I do I'm going to end up better than a high achieving lower class person of another skin color. The law is colour and gender blind, and I'm very proud of the legacy that NZ has, but it's very clear that there is not equal opportunities.
The fact is I agree there is not equality of opportunity, and I think that's what we should be working towards, as I have just said. Why do you keep putting me in the "nothing should change" boat?
You actually have not answered the question at all either:
"Why do you believe that enforcing discriminatory policies to try and achieve your personal preferred outcome is better than simply making sure everyone has an equal opportunity to do whatever it is that they want to do?"
What's naive about it? If you look at the accelerating rate of change then there is no indication whatsoever that it's going to slow down.
I think you're confusing the technological rate of change with the societal/cultural rate of change.
How do we make everyone have equal opportunities? We can't without intervening. Eventually, after whatever cycle you're trying to break is broken we will see things be more equal. But right now society is techincally colour blind and gender blind, there are no caste or classes really in NZ, yet there are very obviously not equal opportunities.
What's naive about it? If you look at the accelerating rate of change then there is no indication whatsoever that it's going to slow down.
I think you're confusing the technological rate of change with the societal/cultural rate of change.
No, they're both moving at massive speeds and one fuels off the other. It took one hundred years between the abolition of slavery in the US and allowing non whites to vote, and then less than 50 years from that for a non white person to be president. That seems to be accelerating societal change to me.
How do we make everyone have equal opportunities? We can't.
That's incredibly defeatist for someone who seems like quite a progressive thinker.
Patrick's couple of links were a good start. That should be the conversation. Here's an example off the top of my head:
Q) Why aren't many females playing in bands compared to males?
- Find out how many females are picking up instruments at a young age compared to males
- If the numbers are low, find out why, then invest and work towards removing the barriers if there are any. If there are no barriers, then invest in the encouragement of females to pick up instruments.
- If the numbers are fine at a young age, go to the next level, find out when they are dropping out, why, and remove those barriers.
I think this is far far better than doing absolutely nothing, and then enforcing an equality-of-outcome, which is basically an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, trying to fix it with one easy policy.
These things are not easy. They need time and money.
How do we make everyone have equal opportunities? We can't without intervening.
You changed the post, but I agree. I'm just saying the intervention you've suggesting is not going to be successful, it is only creating division, and the magnifying of the differences between us.
People are naturally tribal, and enforcing equality-of-outcome will amplify that, and make us more divided.
A lot of the "alt right" that are pushing against this type of thinking, and winning elections might I add, are very young. It's not generational.
How do we make everyone have equal opportunities? We can't.
That's incredibly defeatist for someone who seems like quite a progressive thinker.
Patrick's couple of links were a good start. That should be the conversation. Here's an example off the top of my head:
Q) Why aren't many females playing in bands compared to males?
- Find out how many females are picking up instruments at a young age compared to males
- If the numbers are low, find out why, then invest and work towards removing the barriers if there are any. If there are no barriers, then invest in the encouragement of females to pick up instruments.
- If the numbers are fine at a young age, go to the next level, find out when they are dropping out, why, and remove those barriers.
I think this is far far better than doing absolutely nothing, and then enforcing an equality-of-outcome, which is basically an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, trying to fix it with one easy policy.
These things are not easy. They need time and money.
How do we make everyone have equal opportunities? We can't.
That's incredibly defeatist for someone who seems like quite a progressive thinker.
Patrick's couple of links were a good start. That should be the conversation. Here's an example off the top of my head:
Q) Why aren't many females playing in bands compared to males?
- Find out how many females are picking up instruments at a young age compared to males
- If the numbers are low, find out why, then invest and work towards removing the barriers if there are any. If there are no barriers, then invest in the encouragement of females to pick up instruments.
- If the numbers are fine at a young age, go to the next level, find out when they are dropping out, why, and remove those barriers.
I think this is far far better than doing absolutely nothing, and then enforcing an equality-of-outcome, which is basically an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, trying to fix it with one easy policy.
These things are not easy. They need time and money.
Well that would be the outcome from that process, and to me would be perfectly fine. We then accept that more boys than girls prefer to be in bands, quotas are not needed, and we work hard to ensure that the girls that do take this up are not discriminated against.
Others might argue that it's a construct of society, and that we've been bought up being told what it is that our gender likes and dislikes. They will say we've got to force the outcome because our society basically means that we don't know what we want. To a superficial degree that's true (pink vs blue etc), but overall, science has thoroughly debunked it. Males and females definitely do prefer different things in general, regardless of the societal and cultural conditions.
I actually feel sorry for people who are so stuck in the old ways, there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
Thing is me old mucker, every young generation has held the same lofty ideals and values as you currently do....but where are these idealists now they are older?
The Hippie generation totally sold out once they realised youthful idealism doesn't pay the bills or the fund overseas holidays and perks they start to desire as they get older
The punk generation either totally burnt out or sold out. How many old punks are around?
It's the same with every post WW2 generation from mods and rockers through to punk and grunge and whatever is next.
It's all too easy to rage against the machine from your mums basement, protected from the harsh realities of the world, but people views tend to change with their priorities as they get older and before you know it yesterdays rebel is part of todays establishment.
Gone are the days of overthrowing the system, now its all about maintaing that comfortable lifestyle while easing their conscience by thinking they are doing their bit voting for the Green Party.
Look at the likes of Johnny Rotten: from Anarchy in the UK to making butter adverts on TV.
It's being reviewed. Some of the mods think it crosses a line we'd prefer not to have debated on here.
It may be unhidden but probably not.
That sounds fantastic - is it like a committee with a vote afterwards?
I would love to be a fly on the wall watching that.
Any chance of having one of these reviews/debates being incorporated into the pod?
The clicks would boom
Old White fellas? Please explain. I believe we are to be referred to as "Elders". Perhaps we should form a new political group.......
Senior
Predominently
European
Rightious
Men
or S.P.E.R.M for short. Mods, feel free to delete if you wish. Just trying to lighten it up a bit.
Watch out: the Mods might give your new group the snip :D
It's being reviewed. Some of the mods think it crosses a line we'd prefer not to have debated on here.
It may be unhidden but probably not.
Oh that's a shame. I wrote it kind of tongue in cheek tbh deliberately going over the top.
But hey thats the internet: you can't "see" the tone of my post, only the words.
All good. Please don't dob me in to Jacinda's anti terror unit :D
I actually feel sorry for people who are so stuck in the old ways, there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
Thing is me old mucker, every young generation has held the same lofty ideals and values as you currently do....but where are these idealists now they are older?
The Hippie generation totally sold out once they realised youthful idealism doesn't pay the bills or the fund overseas holidays and perks they start to desire as they get older
The punk generation either totally burnt out or sold out. How many old punks are around?
It's the same with every post WW2 generation from mods and rockers through to punk and grunge and whatever is next.
It's all too easy to rage against the machine from your mums basement, protected from the harsh realities of the world, but people views tend to change with their priorities as they get older and before you know it yesterdays rebel is part of todays establishment.
Gone are the days of overthrowing the system, now its all about maintaing that comfortable lifestyle while easing their conscience by thinking they are doing their bit voting for the Green Party.
Look at the likes of Johnny Rotten: from Anarchy in the UK to making butter adverts on TV.
Funny how we make assumptions of how old people are when we're all virtual, I know people in their sixties who are very liberal, I know people in their twenties who are very conservative.
There's a quote from someone that goes something like "if you're conservative and young you have no heart, if your liberal and old you have no brain."
But the recent trend has been every generation has been more liberal than the last which is why society gets more liberal with each passing year. They may get more pragmatic as they experience life, and have assets to protect, but in general every my conservative father is more liberal than his conservative father, etc.
I don't tend to think along those lines though, I see change as inevitable and my opinion is if we don't plan for it then it's going to be really really hard, it's going to be really hard even if we do everything right.
What's naive about it? If you look at the accelerating rate of change then there is no indication whatsoever that it's going to slow down.
I think you're confusing the technological rate of change with the societal/cultural rate of change.
No, they're both moving at massive speeds and one fuels off the other. It took one hundred years between the abolition of slavery in the US and allowing non whites to vote, and then less than 50 years from that for a non white person to be president. That seems to be accelerating societal change to me.
Yes, this is a great point. The speed of technological change definitely accelerates the speed of societal change, I had not appreciated the interaction of the two very well, until reading your post.
The societal/cultural rate of change will always be shackled by the human lifespan to some degree, but I think your overall argument stands despite that.
I will also hang my hat on this and say that the debate does indeed have value, and doesn't always go round in circles, if we're all open and honest when someone makes a good point!
I actually feel sorry for people who are so stuck in the old ways, there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
Thing is me old mucker, every young generation has held the same lofty ideals and values as you currently do....but where are these idealists now they are older?
The Hippie generation totally sold out once they realised youthful idealism doesn't pay the bills or the fund overseas holidays and perks they start to desire as they get older
The punk generation either totally burnt out or sold out. How many old punks are around?
It's the same with every post WW2 generation from mods and rockers through to punk and grunge and whatever is next.
It's all too easy to rage against the machine from your mums basement, protected from the harsh realities of the world, but people views tend to change with their priorities as they get older and before you know it yesterdays rebel is part of todays establishment.
Gone are the days of overthrowing the system, now its all about maintaing that comfortable lifestyle while easing their conscience by thinking they are doing their bit voting for the Green Party.
Look at the likes of Johnny Rotten: from Anarchy in the UK to making butter adverts on TV.
Funny how we make assumptions of how old people are when we're all virtual, I know people in their sixties who are very liberal, I know people in their twenties who are very conservative.
There's a quote from someone that goes something like "if you're conservative and young you have no heart, if your liberal and old you have no brain."
But the recent trend has been every generation has been more liberal than the last which is why society gets more liberal with each passing year. They may get more pragmatic as they experience life, and have assets to protect, but in general every my conservative father is more liberal than his conservative father, etc.
I don't tend to think along those lines though, I see change as inevitable and my opinion is if we don't plan for it then it's going to be really really hard, it's going to be really hard even if we do everything right.
That was Churchill I think who said that.
Of course there are old people who are liberal, so even you will have to admit that maybe old white men aren't so bad after all then?
Each generation is getting more weak, flabby, self absorbed and degenerate imo Just look at the popularity of Married at First sight for instance. People addicted to it.
Generations ago people venerated the likes of scientists, explorers, artists, poets and writers. Now it seems the average person is more interested in following some BS reality TV. Progress? Hmmm.
yes change is coming but it might not be the one you hope for.
What's naive about it? If you look at the accelerating rate of change then there is no indication whatsoever that it's going to slow down.
I think you're confusing the technological rate of change with the societal/cultural rate of change.
No, they're both moving at massive speeds and one fuels off the other. It took one hundred years between the abolition of slavery in the US and allowing non whites to vote, and then less than 50 years from that for a non white person to be president. That seems to be accelerating societal change to me.
Yes, this is a great point. The speed of technological change definitely accelerates the speed of societal change, I had not appreciated the interaction of the two very well, until reading your post.
The societal/cultural rate of change will always be shackled by the human lifespan to some degree, but I think your overall argument stands despite that.
I will also hang my hat on this and say that the debate does indeed have value, and doesn't always go round in circles, if we're all open and honest when someone makes a good point!
I was surprised when I looked up the dates of the US civil war, Universal Suffrage in the US, and Obama's inaugaration as well. It seems like way more time has gone between all the events.
I actually feel sorry for people who are so stuck in the old ways, there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
Thing is me old mucker, every young generation has held the same lofty ideals and values as you currently do....but where are these idealists now they are older?
The Hippie generation totally sold out once they realised youthful idealism doesn't pay the bills or the fund overseas holidays and perks they start to desire as they get older
The punk generation either totally burnt out or sold out. How many old punks are around?
It's the same with every post WW2 generation from mods and rockers through to punk and grunge and whatever is next.
It's all too easy to rage against the machine from your mums basement, protected from the harsh realities of the world, but people views tend to change with their priorities as they get older and before you know it yesterdays rebel is part of todays establishment.
Gone are the days of overthrowing the system, now its all about maintaing that comfortable lifestyle while easing their conscience by thinking they are doing their bit voting for the Green Party.
Look at the likes of Johnny Rotten: from Anarchy in the UK to making butter adverts on TV.
Funny how we make assumptions of how old people are when we're all virtual, I know people in their sixties who are very liberal, I know people in their twenties who are very conservative.
There's a quote from someone that goes something like "if you're conservative and young you have no heart, if your liberal and old you have no brain."
But the recent trend has been every generation has been more liberal than the last which is why society gets more liberal with each passing year. They may get more pragmatic as they experience life, and have assets to protect, but in general every my conservative father is more liberal than his conservative father, etc.
I don't tend to think along those lines though, I see change as inevitable and my opinion is if we don't plan for it then it's going to be really really hard, it's going to be really hard even if we do everything right.
That was Churchill I think who said that.
Of course there are old people who are liberal, so even you will have to admit that maybe old white men aren't so bad after all then?
Each generation is getting more weak, flabby, self absorbed and degenerate imo Just look at the popularity of Married at First sight for instance. People addicted to it.
Generations ago people venerated the likes of scientists, explorers, artists, poets and writers. Now it seems the average person is more interested in following some BS reality TV. Progress? Hmmm.
yes change is coming but it might not be the one you hope for.
It wasn't Churchill, I thought it was as well (as all good quotes are Churchill) but it wasn't.
To be honest I'm not looking forwards to any change. Your vision of some sort of anti globalisation and mennonite like aversion to technology and the war that comes with that, or what I think will happen which is the removal of borders, increased globalisation, and labor revolution. Both will suck.
I actually feel sorry for people who are so stuck in the old ways, there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
Thing is me old mucker, every young generation has held the same lofty ideals and values as you currently do....but where are these idealists now they are older?
The Hippie generation totally sold out once they realised youthful idealism doesn't pay the bills or the fund overseas holidays and perks they start to desire as they get older
The punk generation either totally burnt out or sold out. How many old punks are around?
It's the same with every post WW2 generation from mods and rockers through to punk and grunge and whatever is next.
It's all too easy to rage against the machine from your mums basement, protected from the harsh realities of the world, but people views tend to change with their priorities as they get older and before you know it yesterdays rebel is part of todays establishment.
Gone are the days of overthrowing the system, now its all about maintaing that comfortable lifestyle while easing their conscience by thinking they are doing their bit voting for the Green Party.
Look at the likes of Johnny Rotten: from Anarchy in the UK to making butter adverts on TV.
Funny how we make assumptions of how old people are when we're all virtual, I know people in their sixties who are very liberal, I know people in their twenties who are very conservative.
There's a quote from someone that goes something like "if you're conservative and young you have no heart, if your liberal and old you have no brain."
But the recent trend has been every generation has been more liberal than the last which is why society gets more liberal with each passing year. They may get more pragmatic as they experience life, and have assets to protect, but in general every my conservative father is more liberal than his conservative father, etc.
I don't tend to think along those lines though, I see change as inevitable and my opinion is if we don't plan for it then it's going to be really really hard, it's going to be really hard even if we do everything right.
It all depends on what you mean by liberal. If you're purely looking at the dictionary term, then 100% agree.
However when it comes to actual politics, it's a bloody minefield, and it makes my blood boil.
The centre-right party in power in Australia is actually called the Liberal Party. What a joke.
If you look at left versus right... go back 20 years and the american democrats were espousing tough border control, strong war-on-drugs policy, and were saying the israeli capital should be shifted to Jerusalem. Now that's all the domain of the right, and the left are attacking it gleefully. This type of thing makes it very tough to talk along political lines as there is no consistency.
I agree with your last sentence too, which is the whole reason I'm arguing in here to be honest. I think enforced equality-of-outcome will be a disaster if it continues, and is not the right way to handle the inevitable change.
I don't like modding and I am finding I need to. Everyone watch your step please.
If you want to treat this like the Stuff comments section then may I suggest you go there.
Interestingly I made a comment on a Stuff article today that has apparently not passed their moderators.
It was very tame.
That's definitely YF 1 Stuff 0.
The problem is there isn't an equality of opportunity, statistically as a middle class white person whatever I do I'm going to end up better than a high achieving lower class person of another skin color.The law is colour and gender blind, and I'm very proud of the legacy that NZ has, but it's very clear that there is not equal opportunities.
.....& then a few posts later, you claim “there are no caste or classes really in NZ,”
Hmmmmmm ?
The problem is there isn't an equality of opportunity, statistically as a middle class white person whatever I do I'm going to end up better than a high achieving lower class person of another skin color.The law is colour and gender blind, and I'm very proud of the legacy that NZ has, but it's very clear that there is not equal opportunities.
.....& then a few posts later, you claim “there are no caste or classes really in NZ,”
Hmmmmmm ?
I meant no class system. There are obviously broad classes which we can group ourselves into, hence I was talking about numbers and those are convenient labels.
I actually feel sorry for people who are so stuck in the old ways, there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
Thing is me old mucker, every young generation has held the same lofty ideals and values as you currently do....but where are these idealists now they are older?
The Hippie generation totally sold out once they realised youthful idealism doesn't pay the bills or the fund overseas holidays and perks they start to desire as they get older
The punk generation either totally burnt out or sold out. How many old punks are around?
It's the same with every post WW2 generation from mods and rockers through to punk and grunge and whatever is next.
It's all too easy to rage against the machine from your mums basement, protected from the harsh realities of the world, but people views tend to change with their priorities as they get older and before you know it yesterdays rebel is part of todays establishment.
Gone are the days of overthrowing the system, now its all about maintaing that comfortable lifestyle while easing their conscience by thinking they are doing their bit voting for the Green Party.
Look at the likes of Johnny Rotten: from Anarchy in the UK to making butter adverts on TV.
Funny how we make assumptions of how old people are when we're all virtual, I know people in their sixties who are very liberal, I know people in their twenties who are very conservative.
There's a quote from someone that goes something like "if you're conservative and young you have no heart, if your liberal and old you have no brain."
But the recent trend has been every generation has been more liberal than the last which is why society gets more liberal with each passing year. They may get more pragmatic as they experience life, and have assets to protect, but in general every my conservative father is more liberal than his conservative father, etc.
I don't tend to think along those lines though, I see change as inevitable and my opinion is if we don't plan for it then it's going to be really really hard, it's going to be really hard even if we do everything right.
That was Churchill I think who said that.
Of course there are old people who are liberal, so even you will have to admit that maybe old white men aren't so bad after all then?
Each generation is getting more weak, flabby, self absorbed and degenerate imo Just look at the popularity of Married at First sight for instance. People addicted to it.
Generations ago people venerated the likes of scientists, explorers, artists, poets and writers. Now it seems the average person is more interested in following some BS reality TV. Progress? Hmmm.
yes change is coming but it might not be the one you hope for.
So, out of interest I looked up the top rated tv shows of 1970. Unfortunately I couldn't find the statistics for NZ but in the US it was mainly pretty appalling looking sitcoms and dramas and talent and variety shows. I couldn't find one science show among the lot. I think you'll probably find that a good chunk of the younger generation don't actually watch TV at all and the TV watching audience is as diverse as it's ever been. I've never seen married at first site, but you could argue that the excitement around Joseph Parker and inevitable huge ratings are way more degenerate.
But far out, no wonder the world's gone to shark recently with attitudes like yours. Every older generation hates the younger generation. I hate this idea of generations, it's just another group to put a blanket over and therefore dismiss. You complain about being not having respect as a man of a certain colour and certain age but pretty much the only person I see on here who even talks about age is you and if others talk about it it's because you keep bringing it up, you're putting yourself in your own bucket and getting offended by your own prejudices.
How has the world gone to sh*t recently?
In terms of poverty rates, standard of living, violent crime, and many other key measures, the world is the best it has ever been, and is continuing to improve, literally every day.
I know it's hard to believe with the headlines we get, but this is the truth.
Doesn't mean we should rest, the situation is far from ideal, but it's important people know this, as it seems most actually don't.
I actually feel sorry for people who are so stuck in the old ways, there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
Thing is me old mucker, every young generation has held the same lofty ideals and values as you currently do....but where are these idealists now they are older?
The Hippie generation totally sold out once they realised youthful idealism doesn't pay the bills or the fund overseas holidays and perks they start to desire as they get older
The punk generation either totally burnt out or sold out. How many old punks are around?
It's the same with every post WW2 generation from mods and rockers through to punk and grunge and whatever is next.
It's all too easy to rage against the machine from your mums basement, protected from the harsh realities of the world, but people views tend to change with their priorities as they get older and before you know it yesterdays rebel is part of todays establishment.
Gone are the days of overthrowing the system, now its all about maintaing that comfortable lifestyle while easing their conscience by thinking they are doing their bit voting for the Green Party.
Look at the likes of Johnny Rotten: from Anarchy in the UK to making butter adverts on TV.
Funny how we make assumptions of how old people are when we're all virtual, I know people in their sixties who are very liberal, I know people in their twenties who are very conservative.
There's a quote from someone that goes something like "if you're conservative and young you have no heart, if your liberal and old you have no brain."
But the recent trend has been every generation has been more liberal than the last which is why society gets more liberal with each passing year. They may get more pragmatic as they experience life, and have assets to protect, but in general every my conservative father is more liberal than his conservative father, etc.
I don't tend to think along those lines though, I see change as inevitable and my opinion is if we don't plan for it then it's going to be really really hard, it's going to be really hard even if we do everything right.
That was Churchill I think who said that.
Of course there are old people who are liberal, so even you will have to admit that maybe old white men aren't so bad after all then?
Each generation is getting more weak, flabby, self absorbed and degenerate imo Just look at the popularity of Married at First sight for instance. People addicted to it.
Generations ago people venerated the likes of scientists, explorers, artists, poets and writers. Now it seems the average person is more interested in following some BS reality TV. Progress? Hmmm.
yes change is coming but it might not be the one you hope for.
So, out of interest I looked up the top rated tv shows of 1970. Unfortunately I couldn't find the statistics for NZ but in the US it was mainly pretty appalling looking sitcoms and dramas and talent and variety shows. I couldn't find one science show among the lot. I think you'll probably find that a good chunk of the younger generation don't actually watch TV at all and the TV watching audience is as diverse as it's ever been. I've never seen married at first site, but you could argue that the excitement around Joseph Parker and inevitable huge ratings are way more degenerate.
But far out, no wonder the world's gone to shark recently with attitudes like yours. Every older generation hates the younger generation. I hate this idea of generations, it's just another group to put a blanket over and therefore dismiss. You complain about being not having respect as a man of a certain colour and certain age but pretty much the only person I see on here who even talks about age is you and if others talk about it it's because you keep bringing it up, you're putting yourself in your own bucket and getting offended by your own prejudices.
Do you have kids?
Do you plan to have kids?
I’ve got bad news for you, children are the next generation. FACT.
An idiotic statement such as. “I hate this idea of generations”, goes to show what a pathetic view you seem to have about most things.
Go and put some big girl pants on, & have a think about some serious SHIT that people have to deal with.
I don't think he has a pathetic view, I think he just has an idealistic view. And there's nothing wrong with that. We have to have people who push for positive change harder than others, or it won't happen. The other side has the responsibility of checking the imbalance if it's pushed too far i.e. communism.
Ultimately I agree with him on most things, I just think he's coming at it a little naively on some points, particularly with the idea of enforcing equality-of-outcome, which is discrimination, in the truest sense of the word.
I actually feel sorry for people who are so stuck in the old ways, there's been a lot of change over the last fifty years but that's nothing compared to what's coming.
Thing is me old mucker, every young generation has held the same lofty ideals and values as you currently do....but where are these idealists now they are older?
The Hippie generation totally sold out once they realised youthful idealism doesn't pay the bills or the fund overseas holidays and perks they start to desire as they get older
The punk generation either totally burnt out or sold out. How many old punks are around?
It's the same with every post WW2 generation from mods and rockers through to punk and grunge and whatever is next.
It's all too easy to rage against the machine from your mums basement, protected from the harsh realities of the world, but people views tend to change with their priorities as they get older and before you know it yesterdays rebel is part of todays establishment.
Gone are the days of overthrowing the system, now its all about maintaing that comfortable lifestyle while easing their conscience by thinking they are doing their bit voting for the Green Party.
Look at the likes of Johnny Rotten: from Anarchy in the UK to making butter adverts on TV.
Funny how we make assumptions of how old people are when we're all virtual, I know people in their sixties who are very liberal, I know people in their twenties who are very conservative.
There's a quote from someone that goes something like "if you're conservative and young you have no heart, if your liberal and old you have no brain."
But the recent trend has been every generation has been more liberal than the last which is why society gets more liberal with each passing year. They may get more pragmatic as they experience life, and have assets to protect, but in general every my conservative father is more liberal than his conservative father, etc.
I don't tend to think along those lines though, I see change as inevitable and my opinion is if we don't plan for it then it's going to be really really hard, it's going to be really hard even if we do everything right.
That was Churchill I think who said that.
Of course there are old people who are liberal, so even you will have to admit that maybe old white men aren't so bad after all then?
Each generation is getting more weak, flabby, self absorbed and degenerate imo Just look at the popularity of Married at First sight for instance. People addicted to it.
Generations ago people venerated the likes of scientists, explorers, artists, poets and writers. Now it seems the average person is more interested in following some BS reality TV. Progress? Hmmm.
yes change is coming but it might not be the one you hope for.
So, out of interest I looked up the top rated tv shows of 1970. Unfortunately I couldn't find the statistics for NZ but in the US it was mainly pretty appalling looking sitcoms and dramas and talent and variety shows. I couldn't find one science show among the lot. I think you'll probably find that a good chunk of the younger generation don't actually watch TV at all and the TV watching audience is as diverse as it's ever been. I've never seen married at first site, but you could argue that the excitement around Joseph Parker and inevitable huge ratings are way more degenerate.
But far out, no wonder the world's gone to shark recently with attitudes like yours. Every older generation hates the younger generation. I hate this idea of generations, it's just another group to put a blanket over and therefore dismiss. You complain about being not having respect as a man of a certain colour and certain age but pretty much the only person I see on here who even talks about age is you and if others talk about it it's because you keep bringing it up, you're putting yourself in your own bucket and getting offended by your own prejudices.
Do you have kids?
Do you plan to have kids?
I’ve got bad news for you, children are the next generation. FACT.
An idiotic statement such as. “I hate this idea of generations”, goes to show what a pathetic view you seem to have about most things.
Go and put some big girl pants on, & have a think about some serious SHIT that people have to deal with.
Generations are stupid, people are individuals and shouldn't be defined by when they were born, also the further away we get from WW1 the less relevant they are as they get spread out.
Gen X for instance encompasses people born from the mid 60s to the early 80s. Someone born in 81 is going to have way more in common with a Millenial than someone born in 65.
Also, chill.
Careful folks... dangerously close to a shut down (or me having a meltdown).
Careful folks... dangerously close to a shut down (or me having a meltdown).
Hmmmmm.... I’m in a dilemma now, do I go for that job interview, or should I wait for News to have a meltdown? ?
Careful folks... dangerously close to a shut down (or me having a meltdown).
Hmmmmm.... I’m in a dilemma now, do I go for that job interview, or should I wait for News to have a meltdown? ?
Why not do both?
Massive good luck with the interview Hatter.
Yeah good luck, I've been interviewing as well and surprisingly I've quickly gotten pretty sick about talking about myself.