They want to make themselves be recognised a "legitimate" organization. Saying they were forced into existence because of the crowns treatment of Maori.
Supposedly not in it for the $$.
Supposedly not in it for the $$.
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Because criminal organizations that do nothing more than steal, murder, produce drugs and fight other criminal organizations shouldn't even be given the opportunity to waste there breathe trying to "legitimize" themselves.
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they have 'post-colonialism syndrome'.. geez. have some sympathy man.
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/4697655a8153.html
A Mongrel Mob spokesman told Radio New Zealand yesterday that the main
aim of its claim was to "inform the whanau fully about their rights and
to make people aware of the law".
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe.
20/5/20
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe.
20/5/20
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Because criminal organizations that do nothing more than steal, murder, produce drugs and fight other criminal organizations shouldn't even be given the opportunity to waste there breathe trying to "legitimize" themselves.
Christ, most of that was stock colonial policy & practice if my reading of NZ Historians is accurate... the 19th century administration was also very good as 'legitimizing' it too! Present day Mob members are hardly afforded the same luxury of parliamentary law making. Thus having the Tribunal as a mechanism (and using it) doesn't seem so bad to me...at least they've been allowed to make their point. Which is about as far as they'll get.
HarryHotspur2008-09-20 21:09:20
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A gang does not exist because of poor treatment, gangs exist because of stupidity and a lack of drive to get ahead legally.
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That's a big call CL.
Why is a search for kinship stupid?HarryHotspur2008-09-20 21:13:58
Why is a search for kinship stupid?HarryHotspur2008-09-20 21:13:58
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More treaty claims, did Brash's suggestions for cleaning up the treaty claims by a certain date and no more being submitted after that ever go through?
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I'm in a big call mood. I will admit Maori people have had a tough ride but really, claiming a gang exists because of this hardship and deserves money for it is really stretching it.
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If I recall correctly the recent flurry of submissions is in response to a (October 1st?) deadline.
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If I recall correctly the recent flurry of submissions is in response to a (October 1st?) deadline.
Sweet! I just want to see it dealt with. Yeap we blew it, and screwed them over. But we got to move forward as a united country, not squabbling over who gets what for their great great great great grandfathers land. Bloody communists
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Yeah, I'd -almost- excuse the Australians for not giving compensation because of the sh*tstorm it creates.
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I'm in a big call mood. I will admit Maori people have had a tough ride but really, claiming a gang exists because of this hardship and deserves money for it is really stretching it.
Stretching it or quite logical? I've always imagined Gangs tend to be the product of marginalisation.The economic marginalisation of Maori is hardly news.
Christ, put it in perspective...gangs are pretty lightweight compared to the terrorism some countries experience for not disimilar reasons.
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But wouldn't the government then be endorsing an organisation with very stong links to crime if we even let them go to the tribunal, no matter how interesting it would be? It would be like when early in her time as PM Helen said the government would pay the ransom for a kidnapped girl.
Yes marginalisation contributes to the social conditions that breed gangs but you have a choice to be in a gang (or to be a terrorist), you don't have a choice in being from an iwi that lost land illegally.
Yes marginalisation contributes to the social conditions that breed gangs but you have a choice to be in a gang (or to be a terrorist), you don't have a choice in being from an iwi that lost land illegally.
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I guess I would argue that there are structural forces far greater than that of 'individual choice' at work here.
In regards to your first point: I don't think the idea will be entertained. What is important to me, in a democratic society, is that the mechanisms exist for grievances such as this to be aired, which is something that marginalised groups do not often have the opportunity to do.HarryHotspur2008-09-20 22:13:11
In regards to your first point: I don't think the idea will be entertained. What is important to me, in a democratic society, is that the mechanisms exist for grievances such as this to be aired, which is something that marginalised groups do not often have the opportunity to do.HarryHotspur2008-09-20 22:13:11
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Yeah, it's an icky issue and there are other factors like coercion at work. Really, what the gangs need is government sponsored programs to actually get them contributing like under Muldoon.
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I guess I would argue that there are structural forces far greater than that of 'individual choice' at work here.
In regards to your first point: I don't think the idea will be entertained. What is important to me, in a democratic society, is that the mechanisms exist for grievances such as this to be aired, which is something that marginalised groups do not often have the opportunity to do.
In regards to your first point: I don't think the idea will be entertained. What is important to me, in a democratic society, is that the mechanisms exist for grievances such as this to be aired, which is something that marginalised groups do not often have the opportunity to do.
but if people don't have free will, which, essentially, you seem to be saying in your postmodern way, society is in a bit of a bind morally. Anyone can claim to be marginalised - you will never get rid of marginalisation. Like it or not, society only works with rules (eg, i'm sure you wouldn't want be to be a racist f**kwit and spread hate crimes, right?), and that requires rulemakers, which requires marginalisation.
And two wrongs don't make a right.
And postmodernism was in vogue when I went to university, and it's only after being away from academia that it's relinquished a lot of its grasp on me. It's as much an intellectual fad as any other.
I like tautologies because I like them.
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But wouldn't the government then be endorsing an organisation with very stong links to crime if we even let them go to the tribunal, no matter how interesting it would be? It would be like when early in her time as PM Helen said the government would pay the ransom for a kidnapped girl.
Yes marginalisation contributes to the social conditions that breed gangs but you have a choice to be in a gang (or to be a terrorist), you don't have a choice in being from an iwi that lost land illegally.
Yes marginalisation contributes to the social conditions that breed gangs but you have a choice to be in a gang (or to be a terrorist), you don't have a choice in being from an iwi that lost land illegally.
Not sure exactly how the process works.
But they deserve to get the application considered on its merits. For which presumably there is some screening process for, and it won't get very far.
What we are looking at here is not the merits of the application, but do they have the right to have their application heard, at least at a very preliminary stage. Which they do.
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But wouldn't the government then be endorsing an organisation with very stong links to crime if we even let them go to the tribunal, no matter how interesting it would be? It would be like when early in her time as PM Helen said the government would pay the ransom for a kidnapped girl.
Yes marginalisation contributes to the social conditions that breed gangs but you have a choice to be in a gang (or to be a terrorist), you don't have a choice in being from an iwi that lost land illegally.
Yes marginalisation contributes to the social conditions that breed gangs but you have a choice to be in a gang (or to be a terrorist), you don't have a choice in being from an iwi that lost land illegally.
Not sure exactly how the process works.
But they deserve to get the application considered on its merits. For which presumably there is some screening process for, and it won't get very far.
What we are looking at here is not the merits of the application, but do they have the right to have their application heard, at least at a very preliminary stage. Which they do.
That's it in a nutshell. Deserved to be heard, whether they're right or wrong is irrelevant.
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I'm in a big call mood. I will admit Maori people have had a tough ride but really, claiming a gang exists because of this hardship and deserves money for it is really stretching it.
how have they had a tough ride? compare them to most conquered races and they got a pretty sweet deal. it was lucky for them that the humanitarian movement was in force in britain in the 1840s or the waitangi treaty would never had existed and we would have had a situation like australia, which no one would ever want cause that was appalling to say the least.
maori continue to get a sweet deal which is what i disagree with. why is it that if you have 1/64th maori you are entitled to free money while at uni? you have 63/64ths other blood in you but that doesnt matter at all.
time for NZ to embrace equality of race, forget about what happened hundreds of years ago and move on as NZers rather than divided races. sure embrace the maori culture as it is an important part of NZ but lets not make policies based on race, that's just racism and not what we need.
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I'm in a big call mood. I will admit Maori people have had a tough ride but really, claiming a gang exists because of this hardship and deserves money for it is really stretching it.
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how have they had a tough ride? compare them to most conquered races and they got a pretty sweet deal. it was lucky for them that the humanitarian movement was in force in britain in the 1840s or the waitangi treaty would never had existed and we would have had a situation like australia, which no one would ever want cause that was appalling to say the least.
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maori continue to get a sweet deal which is what i disagree with. why is it that if you have 1/64th maori you are entitled to free money while at uni? you have 63/64ths other blood in you but that doesnt matter at all.
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time for NZ to embrace equality of race, forget about what happened hundreds of years ago and move on as NZers rather than divided races. sure embrace the maori culture as it is an important part of NZ but lets not make policies based on race, that's just racism and not what we need.
How exactly have Maori had a sweet deal? Do you know anything about NZ history?
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I'm in a big call mood. I will admit Maori people have had a tough ride but really, claiming a gang exists because of this hardship and deserves money for it is really stretching it.
how have they had a tough ride? compare them to most conquered races and they got a pretty sweet deal. it was lucky for them that the humanitarian movement was in force in britain in the 1840s or the waitangi treaty would never had existed and we would have had a situation like australia, which no one would ever want cause that was appalling to say the least.
maori continue to get a sweet deal which is what i disagree with. why is it that if you have 1/64th maori you are entitled to free money while at uni? you have 63/64ths other blood in you but that doesnt matter at all.
time for NZ to embrace equality of race, forget about what happened hundreds of years ago and move on as NZers rather than divided races. sure embrace the maori culture as it is an important part of NZ but lets not make policies based on race, that's just racism and not what we need.
That's where setting an end date for claims will be good for starters. The other thing to remeber with the funding is some of it is private. I.e. not government allowances but allowances from their tribe. No one has any right to tell any of the tribes how to spend their money. Some tribes waste it, others use it for future generations e.g. Ngai Tahu
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That's where setting an end date for claims will be good for starters.
That won't solve anything, nor will have any effect if put into policy.
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Well when you turn a big part of the funding off it helps. I think the funding in other areas, i.e. health and education, is necessary. Look at the socio economic stats and you'll see Maori and PI trailing. If we don't keep working on it they'll be an underclass developing! Gravey boat funding has been cut, no more land claims. Thats the bit that shafts me.
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Do you honestly think that an arbitrary date will lead to an end to Maori grievances?
As for the gravy train, well, the mind boggles. Maybe for the lawyers involved, but for Maori, err, no.
As for the gravy train, well, the mind boggles. Maybe for the lawyers involved, but for Maori, err, no.
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maori continue to get a sweet deal which is what i disagree with. why is it that if you have 1/64th maori you are entitled to free money while at uni? you have 63/64ths other blood in you but that doesnt matter at all.
Er that isn't true.
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/733766a17217.html
here you go. wrap your laughing gear around this.
Yep that's right Maori are over represented at universities, and have too much access to higher education. Those 'sweet dealers'. Grrr.
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maori continue to get a sweet deal which is what i disagree with. why is it that if you have 1/64th maori you are entitled to free money while at uni? you have 63/64ths other blood in you but that doesnt matter at all.
Er that isn't true.
Thats where the tribes come in and specific "maori" only scholarship programmes, but most of them are targeted at professions. I.E. I am yet to see the government fund someone because they have maori blood to a BA and not apply it to teaching etc.
I think it will stop. If you shut the tribunal and close it down why not? Why won't it work? The shop is closed, there is no more money allocated and no one to listen, because your chance to be heard and claim is gone. That's what's going to happen. Problem is this election all of this will be swept under the carpet. Brash had the balls to say it, but looked where having Kohone's gets you in the political world.
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I think it will stop. If you shut the tribunal and close it down why not? Why won't it work? The shop is closed, there is no more money allocated and no one to listen, because your chance to be heard and claim is gone. That's what's going to happen. Problem is this election all of this will be swept under the carpet. Brash had the balls to say it, but looked where having Kohone's gets you in the political world.
Do you think that Maori have grievances only because the Tribunal's there? Maori have been airing their grievances against the Crown uninterruptedly for the last century and a half, and whatever political bluster whichever political party in vogue can come up with it, this will continue until the Crown starts engaging Maori seriously and on a partnership level. Until this happens, whatever the Government policy is, it will not change the dynamics of the Maori and Crown relationship.
You make a mistake in believing that Maori are in the Tribunal process only because of the perceived financial benefits they seem to derive from it, but nothing could be further from the truth.
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A gang does not exist because of poor treatment, gangs exist because of stupidity and a lack of drive to get ahead legally.
How much further from the truth could one be?
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What is the truth then? That all white people are the decendents of evil bastards and gangs are the direct result of colonial racism?
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I think it will stop. If you shut the tribunal and close it down why not? Why won't it work? The shop is closed, there is no more money allocated and no one to listen, because your chance to be heard and claim is gone. That's what's going to happen. Problem is this election all of this will be swept under the carpet. Brash had the balls to say it, but looked where having Kohone's gets you in the political world.
Do you think that Maori have grievances only because the Tribunal's there? Maori have been airing their grievances against the Crown uninterruptedly for the last century and a half, and whatever political bluster whichever political party in vogue can come up with it, this will continue until the Crown starts engaging Maori seriously and on a partnership level. Until this happens, whatever the Government policy is, it will not change the dynamics of the Maori and Crown relationship.
You make a mistake in believing that Maori are in the Tribunal process only because of the perceived financial benefits they seem to derive from it, but nothing could be further from the truth.
The tribunal is where they air there grievances and stake their claim. You close this you close the door and a chapter of the countries past entitled "paying back what we stole". Then we forget about the grievances and move on. They can "complain" but the govt has put into policy that it's over and done with.
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I guess I would argue that there are structural forces far greater than that of 'individual choice' at work here.
In regards to your first point: I don't think the idea will be entertained. What is important to me, in a democratic society, is that the mechanisms exist for grievances such as this to be aired, which is something that marginalised groups do not often have the opportunity to do.
but if people don't have free will, which, essentially, you seem to be saying in your postmodern way, society is in a bit of a bind morally. Anyone can claim to be marginalised - you will never get rid of marginalisation. Like it or not, society only works with rules (eg, i'm sure you wouldn't� want be to be a racist f**kwit and spread hate crimes, right?), and that requires rulemakers, which requires marginalisation. And two wrongs don't make a right.And postmodernism was in vogue when I went to university, and it's only after being away from academia that it's relinquished a lot of its grasp on me. It's as much an intellectual fad as any other.
In regards to your first point: I don't think the idea will be entertained. What is important to me, in a democratic society, is that the mechanisms exist for grievances such as this to be aired, which is something that marginalised groups do not often have the opportunity to do.
Don't think I would go so far as to say free will doesn't exist - just that it doesn't exist in a vacuum. I tend to agree that rules, if designed for inclusion, automatically create space for exclusion...but perhaps that is why debate about the desired ends of those rules is so important in order to minimalise marginalisation?
Whilst I wouldn't regard postmodernism as a fad your last statement is a blinder for the world of relativism!! Long live late modernity (or not!)
HarryHotspur2008-09-23 00:38:44
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That's a big call CL.
Why is a search for kinship stupid?
Why is a search for kinship stupid?
If they want "kinship" they can join the friggin' Boy's Brigade.
Gangs are a plague and that prey on the vulnerable among our youth. They should be nuked out of existence.
Nix, Leyton Orient and Alloa Athletic supporting schmuck.
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