Awwwww Ref - Know The Laws
Get some official YF sweatbands on the go
Brothers in officialdom - sagely advice required...
Challenges on keepers (esp in the air), what do you look out for - and when is a foul committed or not?
I find that attacking players are not challenging any more fiercely with a header than they would against a defender, but given the keepers changed centre of gravity with his arms outstretched above his head there is more likelihood of the keeper landing awkwardly and being injured, or taking a knock in the chest, ribs, kidneys or such.
What do you think?
Challenges on keepers (esp in the air), what do you look out for - and when is a foul committed or not?
I find that attacking players are not challenging any more fiercely with a header than they would against a defender, but given the keepers changed centre of gravity with his arms outstretched above his head there is more likelihood of the keeper landing awkwardly and being injured, or taking a knock in the chest, ribs, kidneys or such.
What do you think?
You ask this now ginger? 
You ask this now ginger?
Don't see it as an injury Granville - think of it as a key learning opportunity in the development of officiating the game.
How badly injured is he Eejit ? Worth wandering down to the shop for a laugh ?
How badly injured is he Eejit ? Worth wandering down to the shop for a laugh ?
In his normal state he is always worth wandering past for a laugh.
Just saw your other post in the goalkeeper thread, would be great to find out what constitutes a foul etc as it has been, literally,a sore point amongst us custodians. Personally, am also interested in how goalkeepers are allowed to protect themselves in that situation ie if raising the knees and elbows is acceptable.
How badly injured is he Eejit ? Worth wandering down to the shop for a laugh ?
In his normal state he is always worth wandering past for a laugh.
How badly injured is he Eejit ? Worth wandering down to the shop for a laugh ?
It's the same knock from 5 weeks ago he's mumping his gums about
As a goalie, I have always found this one interesting.
But I think you've hit the nail on the head, and adressed the topic must people miss. The goalies centre of gravity.
In most heading cases, the shoulders can be used as protection, and to a lesser degree a slightly spread arm (in no way do I mean elbow, just the arms out to the side to form a sort of triangle from waist up to head). With the goalie there is none of this, often they are stretching precariously forward or backwards, with little regard for personal wellbeing, when you have a player contesting for the ball in a straight up and down jump this shouldnt be an issue. However if a player is jumping into the keeper in an attempt to legally or illegally play the ball, this in my opinion is a foul because it is putting the keeper at risk of injury through a push and thus awkward fall. And isn't the 13th law always been player safety?
I think if the goalie spills the ball, then award a freekick, if he holds it. A good loud talking to the offending player who challenged the keeper to know you have seen it, and will not tolerate that behaviour
But I think you've hit the nail on the head, and adressed the topic must people miss. The goalies centre of gravity.
In most heading cases, the shoulders can be used as protection, and to a lesser degree a slightly spread arm (in no way do I mean elbow, just the arms out to the side to form a sort of triangle from waist up to head). With the goalie there is none of this, often they are stretching precariously forward or backwards, with little regard for personal wellbeing, when you have a player contesting for the ball in a straight up and down jump this shouldnt be an issue. However if a player is jumping into the keeper in an attempt to legally or illegally play the ball, this in my opinion is a foul because it is putting the keeper at risk of injury through a push and thus awkward fall. And isn't the 13th law always been player safety?
I think if the goalie spills the ball, then award a freekick, if he holds it. A good loud talking to the offending player who challenged the keeper to know you have seen it, and will not tolerate that behaviour
As a goalie, I have always found this one interesting.
In most heading cases, the shoulders can be used as protection, and to a lesser degree a slightly spread arm (in no way do I mean elbow, just the arms out to the side to form a sort of triangle from waist up to head). With the goalie there is none of this, often they are stretching precariously forward or backwards, with little regard for personal wellbeing, when you have a player contesting for the ball in a straight up and down jump this shouldnt be an issue. However if a player is jumping into the keeper in an attempt to legally or illegally play the ball, this in my opinion is a foul because it is putting the keeper at risk of injury through a push and thus awkward fall. And isn't the 13th law always been player safety?
In most heading cases, the shoulders can be used as protection, and to a lesser degree a slightly spread arm (in no way do I mean elbow, just the arms out to the side to form a sort of triangle from waist up to head). With the goalie there is none of this, often they are stretching precariously forward or backwards, with little regard for personal wellbeing, when you have a player contesting for the ball in a straight up and down jump this shouldnt be an issue. However if a player is jumping into the keeper in an attempt to legally or illegally play the ball, this in my opinion is a foul because it is putting the keeper at risk of injury through a push and thus awkward fall. And isn't the 13th law always been player safety?
I think this is the key. If both players are jumping straight up and down then there can be contact without a foul (as is the case for two outfield players going up for a header).
But if you have the keeper jumping straight up and the striker jumping into the keeper with foward momentum then it should be foul. Essentially i think it comes down to who gets to the optimal location first.
How bout the fact that the other player has to stick his neck out and risk a head injury. But the keeper can come through with his arms and fists. Its all fair game init? If keepers can come through with their knee up, which I think theyre coached to do, then others should be able to go as hard as they want also...
I dont think I belong in the referee thread...I think it all depends on when you make contact. If i was running and jumping, and kneed you out the way before i caught the ball, then i would expect to give up a free kick. However if i caught the ball first then the collition happened the i would think it would be play on.
How bout the fact that the other player has to stick his neck out and risk a head injury. But the keeper can come through with his arms and fists. Its all fair game init? If keepers can come through with their knee up, which I think theyre coached to do, then others should be able to go as hard as they want also...
I dont think I belong in the referee thread...Sounds like you belong in this thread up to about 1950. In the old days, it was legal to charge keepers when they had possession of the ball in an attempt to knock it loose. This changed not long after an incident in, I think, an FA Cup Final. The keeper was violently charged into the back of the net, had his cheek bone broken and was unconscious. If I recall correctly, this was before the innovation of substitutes so as well as being a goal down, the defending team had to play on with 10 men and an outfield player in goal.
when you have a player contesting for the ball in a straight up and down jump this shouldnt be an issue. However if a player is jumping into the keeper in an attempt to legally or illegally play the ball, this in my opinion is a foul because it is putting the keeper at risk of injury through a push and thus awkward fall. And isn't the 13th law always been player safety?
I think this is the key. If both players are jumping straight up and down then there can be contact without a foul (as is the case for two outfield players going up for a header).
But if you have the keeper jumping straight up and the striker jumping into the keeper with foward momentum then it should be foul. Essentially i think it comes down to who gets to the optimal location first.
But aint I entitled to contest for the ball as it is still in play untill the keeper has caught it. Im not going in there to hurt or knock the keeper down im jumping forward with the intent to header the ball. Am I not putting myself at risk as you can jump forward at me with your hands clinhed into a fist to punch the ball and as I have found out on many occasion anything that is near the ball.
But aint I entitled to contest for the ball as it is still in play untill the keeper has caught it. Im not going in there to hurt or knock the keeper down im jumping forward with the intent to header the ball. Am I not putting myself at risk as you can jump forward at me with your hands clinhed into a fist to punch the ball and as I have found out on many occasion anything that is near the ball.
Intent is not relevant to whether it is a foul. If to get to the ball you have to go through the keeper, then it is a foul. If you're jumping into the keeper then the chances are it's a foul. Conceptually this is the same as when a player is shielding the ball and you go through him to get to it.
But aint I entitled to contest for the ball as it is still in play untill the keeper has caught it. Im not going in there to hurt or knock the keeper down im jumping forward with the intent to header the ball. Am I not putting myself at risk as you can jump forward at me with your hands clinhed into a fist to punch the ball and as I have found out on many occasion anything that is near the ball.
Intent is not relevant to whether it is a foul. If to get to the ball you have to go through the keeper, then it is a foul. If you're jumping into the keeper then the chances are it's a foul. Conceptually this is the same as when a player is shielding the ball and you go through him to get to it.
This is the bit im not fussed on as a player. If im jumping forward and get to the ball just before the keeper and end up going through the keeper after making contact with the ball. I should in my mind not be called for a foul, yet i am. I fully understand that we dont want to see nasty injuries. But it is sport and injurys do happen. The ball is in the air and therefore pretty much a 50/50, so why cant i contest for it.
Totally agree with the 1st sentence, and if i think that the keeper will get to it first i will pull out of my challenge.
If im jumping forward and get to the ball just before the keeper and end up going through the keeper after making contact with the ball. I should in my mind not be called for a foul, yet i am.
As a keeper, I agree with you and would not expect to be given a foul. Well, unless the challenge could have been ruled as dangerous - in which case the keeper being on the receiving end should expect to have the same criteria as an outfield player on the receiving end.
We don't always get protection though. In a Cap 4 game last season, I jumped up and caught the ball ahead of big opposing centre forward coming in to me. He didn't halt his run, instead pushing me with his hands when I was still in the air. I went flying, lost the ball and they scored. To my disbelief the ref allowed the goal.
Aw Ref.... can you tell me why it is a bookable offence for a player to remove his shirt after scoring a goal.
It cant be because
it is crowd provoking because players who run along in front of the crowd waving their arms in the air dont get booked.
it is obscene because players exchange shirts on the field after the game and whilst still under the referees jurisdiction and dont get booked.
it is time wasting because it takes less time to pull your jersey over your head than it does to get up off the ground after the rest of your team have played stacks on the mill on top of you and they never got booked.
the referee cant identify the player, because he has numbers on his shorts and sooner or later he is going to put his shirt back on again.
It is in the rules that players must wear a playing shirt that identifies him or her, because (a) if it is only pulled over his head then he is still wearing it and (b) see above.
It cant be because
it is crowd provoking because players who run along in front of the crowd waving their arms in the air dont get booked. it is obscene because players exchange shirts on the field after the game and whilst still under the referees jurisdiction and dont get booked. it is time wasting because it takes less time to pull your jersey over your head than it does to get up off the ground after the rest of your team have played stacks on the mill on top of you and they never got booked. the referee cant identify the player, because he has numbers on his shorts and sooner or later he is going to put his shirt back on again. It is in the rules that players must wear a playing shirt that identifies him or her, because (a) if it is only pulled over his head then he is still wearing it and (b) see above.
I think it had something to do with political messages on the shirts (underneath).
I think it had something to do with political messages on the shirts (underneath).
Then book the message carriers.
And a massive what if... The message carrier never scored but exchanged jerseys at fulltime.
uiron2008-06-09 13:32:27
Aw Ref.... can you tell me why it is a bookable offence for a player to remove his shirt after scoring a goal.
It cant be because
it is crowd provoking because players who run along in front of the crowd waving their arms in the air dont get booked.
it is obscene because players exchange shirts on the field after the game and whilst still under the referees jurisdiction and dont get booked.
it is time wasting because it takes less time to pull your jersey over your head than it does to get up off the ground after the rest of your team have played stacks on the mill on top of you and they never got booked.
the referee cant identify the player, because he has numbers on his shorts and sooner or later he is going to put his shirt back on again.
It is in the rules that players must wear a playing shirt that identifies him or her, because (a) if it is only pulled over his head then he is still wearing it and (b) see above.
It cant be because
it is crowd provoking because players who run along in front of the crowd waving their arms in the air dont get booked. it is obscene because players exchange shirts on the field after the game and whilst still under the referees jurisdiction and dont get booked. it is time wasting because it takes less time to pull your jersey over your head than it does to get up off the ground after the rest of your team have played stacks on the mill on top of you and they never got booked. the referee cant identify the player, because he has numbers on his shorts and sooner or later he is going to put his shirt back on again. It is in the rules that players must wear a playing shirt that identifies him or her, because (a) if it is only pulled over his head then he is still wearing it and (b) see above.Coz it's in the rules
Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct
Decisions of IFAB
Decision 6
A player who removes his jersey when celebrating a goal must be
cautioned for unsporting behaviour.
Why it's in the rules, who knows? - perhaps it's a throw back to the days when USB was described as 'Ungentlemanly Conduct' - and running around the park spinning your top around your head isn't particularly 'gentlemanly'?!?!
As for political messages, that's covered by...
Law 4 - Players Equipment
Decisions of IFAB
Decision 1
� Players must not reveal undershirts that contain slogans or advertising.
The basic compulsory equipment must not contain any
political, religious or personal statements.
� A player removing his jersey to reveal slogans or advertising will
be sanctioned by the competition organiser. The team of a player
whose basic compulsory equipment contains political, religious or
personal slogans or statements will be sanctioned by the competition
organiser or by FIFA.
Law 4 - Players Equipment
Decisions of IFAB
Decision 1
� Players must not reveal undershirts that contain slogans or advertising.
The basic compulsory equipment must not contain any
political, religious or personal statements.
� A player removing his jersey to reveal slogans or advertising will
be sanctioned by the competition organiser. The team of a player
whose basic compulsory equipment contains political, religious or
personal slogans or statements will be sanctioned by the competition
organiser or by FIFA.
Additional Instructions and Guidelines for Referees in the LOTG suggests...
Celebration of a goal
While it is permissible for a player to demonstrate his joy when a goal
has been scored, the celebration must not be excessive.
Reasonable celebrations are allowed, but the practice of choreographed
celebrations is not to be encouraged when it results in excessive
time-wasting and referees are instructed to intervene in such
cases.
A player must be cautioned if:
� in the opinion of the referee, he makes gestures which are provocative,
derisory or inflammatory
� he climbs on to a perimeter fence to celebrate a goal being
scored
� he removes his shirt or covers his head with his shirt.
� he covers his head or face with a mask or other similar item
Leaving the field of play to celebrate a goal is not a cautionable offence
in itself but it is essential that players return to the field of play as soon
as possible.
Referees are expected to act in a preventative manner and to exercise
common sense in dealing with the celebration of a goal.
Celebration of a goal
While it is permissible for a player to demonstrate his joy when a goal
has been scored, the celebration must not be excessive.
Reasonable celebrations are allowed, but the practice of choreographed
celebrations is not to be encouraged when it results in excessive
time-wasting and referees are instructed to intervene in such
cases.
A player must be cautioned if:
� in the opinion of the referee, he makes gestures which are provocative,
derisory or inflammatory
� he climbs on to a perimeter fence to celebrate a goal being
scored
� he removes his shirt or covers his head with his shirt.
� he covers his head or face with a mask or other similar item
Leaving the field of play to celebrate a goal is not a cautionable offence
in itself but it is essential that players return to the field of play as soon
as possible.
Referees are expected to act in a preventative manner and to exercise
common sense in dealing with the celebration of a goal.
So when Tevez scored his first goal for West Ham last year, took his shirt off, jumped the hoardings then hurdled the fence landing five rows back in the crowd, downing a pint of beer before returning to the field, he was pushing his luck a bit far eh.
Now that was a booking worth getting. They are still having court cases over it.
Incidently ging, I will be in your fair city for a few days in August.
uiron2008-06-09 14:02:18
Now that was a booking worth getting. They are still having court cases over it.
Incidently ging, I will be in your fair city for a few days in August.
uiron2008-06-09 14:02:18
So when Tevez scored his first goal for West Ham last year, took his shirt off, jumped the hoardings then hurdled the fence landing five rows back in the crowd, downing a pint of beer before returning to the field, he was pushing his luck a bit far eh.
Now that was a booking worth getting. They are still having court cases over it.
Incidently ging, I will be in your fair city for a few days in August.
Now that was a booking worth getting. They are still having court cases over it.
Incidently ging, I will be in your fair city for a few days in August.
Excellent, hope you enjoy yourself, mind stay well clear of Tynecastle - or they might make you manager.
Shame you're not there a wee bit earlier, you'd be in time for Hibs v Barcelona pre-season game at Murrayfield.
There's this thing over on the BBC called You Are the Ref.
Has vicious questions like:
Has vicious questions like:
A player scythes down an opponent, two-footed, over the top - a definitive red card offence. However, the ball bounces kindly for the other team and they have an excellent chance of scoring. You allow play to continue, making a mental note to send the player off next time there is a break in play. The goal opportunity is denied by a miracle one-handed save by the goalkeeper. A team-mate instantly kicks the ball upfield to the player, who should have been sent off. He is played onside by the player he hacked down and he goes on to score.
Should the goal be allowed? Should the goalscorer still be sent off? What you would do in this situation?
Should the goal be allowed? Should the goalscorer still be sent off? What you would do in this situation?
There's this thing over on the BBC called You Are the Ref.
Has vicious questions like:
Has vicious questions like:
A player scythes down an opponent, two-footed, over the top - a definitive red card offence. However, the ball bounces kindly for the other team and they have an excellent chance of scoring. You allow play to continue, making a mental note to send the player off next time there is a break in play. The goal opportunity is denied by a miracle one-handed save by the goalkeeper. A team-mate instantly kicks the ball upfield to the player, who should have been sent off. He is played onside by the player he hacked down and he goes on to score.
Should the goal be allowed? Should the goalscorer still be sent off? What you would do in this situation?
Should the goal be allowed? Should the goalscorer still be sent off? What you would do in this situation?
Goal stands, player gets sent off. Ref gets torrents of abuse(as usual!
), for not awarding a free kick instead of advantage.We did cover this a wee while ago in coaching, the 'advice' was that for tackles like that you should stop the match to award the free kick and send the player off, only at the top echelons of the game would you play advantage.
But from the scenario above, for the tackling player to be played onside by the tackled player sounds an very deep position to give an advantage call. When attacking there wouldn't be too much advantage to be gained from playing on from your own half compared to a free kick (in most cases)
ginger_eejit2008-06-09 14:42:04
Additional Instructions and Guidelines for Referees in the LOTG suggests...
Celebration of a goal
While it is permissible for a player to demonstrate his joy when a goal
has been scored, the celebration must not be excessive.
Reasonable celebrations are allowed, but the practice of choreographed
celebrations is not to be encouraged when it results in excessive
time-wasting and referees are instructed to intervene in such
cases.
A player must be cautioned if:
� in the opinion of the referee, he makes gestures which are provocative,
derisory or inflammatory
� he climbs on to a perimeter fence to celebrate a goal being
scored
� he removes his shirt or covers his head with his shirt.
� he covers his head or face with a mask or other similar item
Leaving the field of play to celebrate a goal is not a cautionable offence
in itself but it is essential that players return to the field of play as soon
as possible.
Referees are expected to act in a preventative manner and to exercise
common sense in dealing with the celebration of a goal.
Celebration of a goal
While it is permissible for a player to demonstrate his joy when a goal
has been scored, the celebration must not be excessive.
Reasonable celebrations are allowed, but the practice of choreographed
celebrations is not to be encouraged when it results in excessive
time-wasting and referees are instructed to intervene in such
cases.
A player must be cautioned if:
� in the opinion of the referee, he makes gestures which are provocative,
derisory or inflammatory
� he climbs on to a perimeter fence to celebrate a goal being
scored
� he removes his shirt or covers his head with his shirt.
� he covers his head or face with a mask or other similar item
Leaving the field of play to celebrate a goal is not a cautionable offence
in itself but it is essential that players return to the field of play as soon
as possible.
Referees are expected to act in a preventative manner and to exercise
common sense in dealing with the celebration of a goal.
In addition to everything thing that ginger eejit has said, take into account the differences between cultures. In some cultures, women are covered head to toe in traditional dress. While footballers show skin on legs, arms etc, there could be a cultural aspect to this decision in terms of showing skin. Just showing ettiquette.
In light of this morning game, i have a question. If a defender is standing off the filed (say beyond the byline) is he counted as the last defender (hence playing everyone on side).
This is in relation to Ruud goal this morning. He was clearly offside but there was an italian defender lying on the ground off the field but by the goal post. Does that defender then play Rudd onside?
I think the lino expected that defender to get up and keep playing in which case he would have played him on. However the milking Italian stayed down having a cry leaving Ruud offside. Capeesh?
capeesh. but here is part of law 11 from fifa.
If a defending player steps behind his own goal line in order to place an opponent in an offside position, the referee shall allow play to continue and caution the defender for deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee�s permission when the ball is next out of play.
That seems to suggest the act of leaving the field has to be deliberate. Which in this case it wasn't.
Word. He may have stayed off the field deliberately but didnt leave it deliberately. Massive grey area. To be honest I dont know what the correct call should have been. Anyone?
Leaving the field may not have been deliberate, but he knew getting up would put him onside so he pretended to be hurt. I say it was the right call. The goal should stand.
i need to view a replay again before i can judge whether he deliberatly stayed out of play. 2ndBest2008-06-10 10:34:52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6KQLOcyUrs
for those who missed it
capeesh. but here is part of law 11 from fifa.
If a defending player steps behind his own goal line in order to place an opponent in an offside position, the referee shall allow play to continue and caution the defender for deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee�s permission when the ball is next out of play.
That seems to suggest the act of leaving the field has to be deliberate. Which in this case it wasn't.
wasn't there a yellow card straight after the goal aswell...
wasn't there a yellow card straight after the goal aswell...
To Luca Toni for bitching.
Correct call imo. The Italian tried to milk it. (cheating Italians - crazy stuff..)