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BETRAYAL

93 replies · 4,662 views
over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tegal wrote:
Smithy wrote:
Only for your money is making a late charge...GinaVaa must have rung around the neighbours...
Or voted 50 times.
how can one person vote 50 times???
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

...ok then....a rule that states that a monetary fine should be paid....The point remains the same smart fella.


Allegedly

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Chuckie wrote:
Tegal wrote:
Smithy wrote:
Only for your money is making a late charge...GinaVaa must have rung around the neighbours...
Or voted 50 times.
how can one person vote 50 times???
By clicking an option then "cast my vote" 50 times smart fella.

Allegedly

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
what ever tegal you seem to know it all.
 
some of the fines that are dished out and no way of appealing is just wrong...just wrong
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Can someone clear this up for me, I have been fined $49.00 for a yellow , thats made up of $37.50 for the fine and $11.50 adminstartion fee.  How can any organisation charge a 25% admin fee.

Sounds like revenue generating to me.
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Shouldn't have got booked if you didn't want to pay.  Pretty simple really.

Same with speeding tickets. 2ndBest2011-06-28 22:48:11
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
GinaVaa wrote:
Another example of revenue gathering by forced compliance. It should be recommended not forced. What makes someone with the qualifications more worthy anyway?


Because if it is recommended, hardly anyone will do it. SO you don't think that being qualified is more preferable than not being qualified?
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2bshady wrote:
Can someone clear this up for me, I have been fined $49.00 for a yellow , thats made up of $37.50 for the fine and $11.50 adminstartion fee.  How can any organisation charge a 25% admin fee.

Sounds like revenue generating to me.
would you rather just pay the ref when you get booked?

Founder

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Prompt payment discount. Just like electricity.

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2ndBest wrote:
GinaVaa wrote:
Another example of revenue gathering by forced compliance. It should be recommended not forced. What makes someone with the qualifications more worthy anyway?


Because if it is recommended, hardly anyone will do it. SO you don't think that being qualified is more preferable than not being qualified?
do you think that potentially forcing excellent coaches out the game is a good thing?

Founder

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2bshady wrote:
Can someone clear this up for me, I have been fined $49.00 for a yellow , thats made up of $37.50 for the fine and $11.50 adminstartion fee.  How can any organisation charge a 25% admin fee.

Sounds like revenue generating to me.

Reckon CF should just increase the fine to $100, then the admin fee will only be 10%.  Problem solved.
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Feverish wrote:
2ndBest wrote:
GinaVaa wrote:
Another example of revenue gathering by forced compliance. It should be recommended not forced. What makes someone with the qualifications more worthy anyway?


Because if it is recommended, hardly anyone will do it. SO you don't think that being qualified is more preferable than not being qualified?
do you think that potentially forcing excellent coaches out the game is a good thing?

Explain your reasoning.
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
GinaVaa wrote:
Smithy wrote:
Word.
 
Example 5
 

12. Fines

1) The following fines shall be applicable:                                               a) For non-compliance with requirements to provide nets and flag poles; $20.00 per infringement,

b) For non compliance with requirements to telephone results (Home Team) and post team cards;$10.00 per infringement,

c) For a team defaulting without previously obtaining the consent of the Manager; $100.00 per infringement together with the possible expulsion from Junior Premier and Promotion Leagues for subsequent defaults.

Really? For kids? Did I mention the technical area has to be provided?
I can see it now, I'll load all the kids into the car Saturday morning and the poles/nets as well. Maybe I'll just go and purchase a van especially for Saturday, that's if I can afford to after getting my level 2 certificate and level 1 ref badge.
 
All of those items make the game more enjoyable and make the leagues run better.  Ask any kid (especially 12-14 year olds) whether they like playing in matches with no nets.  It sucks (I was 14 once and I know we used to get pumped up when we played at grounds like centennial, wests because they had "cool" nets.

Normo's coming home

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2ndBest wrote:
Shouldn't have got booked if you didn't want to pay.  Pretty simple really.

Same with speeding tickets.
 
Sorry, that's a rubbish argument.  Speed cameras catch people because it is an objective limit.  Yellow cards offences are judged subjectively not objectively.
 
There needs to be a clear explanation why people are being fined.  If it is a deterrent then that is fine.  An admin fee needs to be a true cost of administration for that offence otherwise it is part of the deterrent. 

Normo's coming home

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Smithy wrote:
GinaVaa wrote:


Example 4
Why have ammendments been made to the junior regulations requiring JPL/PROMO teams to have a level 2 coach and level 1 ref from 2012? This is the same as speed cameras. Revenue.
Who do they think will wear the cost? The clubs? Most probably the parents as usual I fear.
As a hard working soccermom who wants the best for her footballing kids, I give up my time to help out because no one else is volunteering. I and others should not be penalised for getting involved, especially when we produce results. Don't get me started on the fines our juniors can get according to the same regs.


No this is because the standard of coaching and refereeing in junior football is woeful and they want to try to improve it.

This isn't a punishment, it's an opportunity to learn and do a better job as a volunteer.

The courses aren't particularly expensive, and compared to the other costs a club faces, are negligible. I'm also fairly sure if you approached CF with a story of genuine hardship they would help you out.
 
Running these types of courses is exactly what pub charity money should be used for, not under the table payments to senior clubs to use to pay players. 
 
I have sympathy on bothsides of this argument.  Parents/coaches should be qualified, especially at junior level.  Pretty much every parent who coached me from age 5-12 was enthusiastic but ultimately uniformed about the game - which is pretty useless.  But it is tough to expect them to cover the costs themselves

Normo's coming home

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2ndBest wrote:
Feverish wrote:
2ndBest wrote:
GinaVaa wrote:
Another example of revenue gathering by forced compliance. It should be recommended not forced. What makes someone with the qualifications more worthy anyway?


Because if it is recommended, hardly anyone will do it. SO you don't think that being qualified is more preferable than not being qualified?
do you think that potentially forcing excellent coaches out the game is a good thing?

Explain your reasoning.
a coach who a club values, but who isnt interested in doing a course - and thus would not be able to coach. Everybody loses.

Founder

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
the course aren't exactly onerous.
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
How about no fines but subs go up.

Oh you don't like that either?

Thankfully CF planted a money tree so we all get to play for free next season.

Allegedly

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:

Running these types of courses is exactly what pub charity money should be used for, not under the table payments to senior clubs to use to pay players.�

�

I have sympathy on bothsides of this argument.� Parents/coaches should be qualified, especially at junior level.� Pretty much every parent who coached me from age 5-12 was enthusiastic but ultimately uniformed about the game - which is pretty useless.� But it is tough to expect them to cover the costs themselves


Agree with this whole post 100%, especially the bit in bold.

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2ndBest wrote:
the course aren't exactly onerous.
level 2 senior is - and thats what they proposed coaches from CL/Prem have - even though the winners of those comps didn't even have it

Founder

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
@ Gina

Example 1: Its rubbish if true, but hard to believe.

Example 2: I am fine with this, with the exception that the cost should only be paid if the appeal is rejected - helps prevent frivolous appeals.

Example 3: Fines are a part of football all over the country. They suck, but that's life. Schoolkids shouldn't be getting fined if that is happening and I disagree with that (unless they are playing senior football, in which case, if they are good enough they are old enough to pay fines)

Example 4: Good. Its a good initiative for the top juniors in clubs (assuming here JPL/Promo is the new equivalent of the old 'Regional League'? with Welly, Hutt and Mana combined)

Example 5: Good. Do grounds not have a storeroom with flags and nets onsite anymore? If not, then its a bit rubbish. The default one is good. If you don't get consent of the competition manager (I assume by letting him know early) than the club should be fined. Nothing worse for kids and parents than driving out to a ground only to find the other side has defaulted without telling anyone till late Saturday morning even though they knew they were struggling for numbers on Thursday night.


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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2ndBest wrote:
Shouldn't have got booked if you didn't want to pay.  Pretty simple really.

Same with speeding tickets.


Hardly simple. There are always going to be fouls. And I am sure you get a few cards
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

If the game is an amatuer sport then why do clubs "offer" players incentives to play for them and have win bonuses etc. This applies to coaches too. CF knows this is going on, in fact it has been going on for decades.

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Feverish wrote:
2ndBest wrote:
the course aren't exactly onerous.
level 2 senior is - and thats what they proposed coaches from CL/Prem have - even though the winners of those comps didn't even have it
 
She was talking about juniors levels.  Which are piss easy.
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
JohnM wrote:

If the game is an amatuer sport then why do clubs "offer" players incentives to play for them and have win bonuses etc. This applies to coaches too. CF knows this is going on, in fact it has been going on for decades.

 
A: Because CF lets the clubs get away with it
 
B: Because some clubs don't understand the word 'amateur' .
 
C: Because some players are mercenary and think they are so good they should be paid to play even though they only play Central League or Cap Premier.
 
D: Clubs want to win so they offer inducements to get the players mentioned in C to achieve the glory of a title.
 
D: Clubs are stupid enough to do it thus perpetuating the views of those mentioned in c.
 
How do you stop it, I've no idea.
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2ndBest wrote:
Feverish wrote:
2ndBest wrote:
the course aren't exactly onerous.
level 2 senior is - and thats what they proposed coaches from CL/Prem have - even though the winners of those comps didn't even have it
 
She was talking about juniors levels.  Which are piss easy.
as mentioned previously - it has also been raised at senior level. Keep up 4thBest.
 
Some clubs run coach the coaches stuff in-house for juniors by the way

Founder

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2ndBest wrote:

Shouldn't have got booked if you didn't want to pay.� Pretty simple really.Same with speeding tickets.



not everyone gets booked on purpose, i play and do a bit of reffing and have seen people get booked for doing very little wrong while others do not get booked for more serious fouls that the ref misses.there is a need for a fines system to deter some people but in social level football the fines need to be either lower or have a grading type fine like ten dollars for your first yellow and rising for each yellow after that .

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Don't disagree that yellow cards are inevitable, but having different fines for different grades or for number of cards would just increase the admin costs.  Just seems like people are whinging for the sake of it.

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Thats a good point, the more yellows the more you pay
Also regarding the piss easy junior level and for that matter the piss easy senior ones, whos to say in a years time that they( NZF,CF) say "thats not valid anymore and you'll have to sit and pay for the latest idea" its like a hole in the ground you throw good $$ in.The Whole of football plan is just the latest money spinner. 
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What's wrong with trying to lift the abilities of both coaches and referees?  Someone will have to pay for it - hopefully covered by the clubs (as it is for Wharfies) as that is an investment that will benefit the club.
 
Eggball has strict coaching level requirements at junior level. 
 
Money-spinner or would you rather have keen people who might not have too much technical ability teaching your kiddies or reffing their games?
 
Junior822011-06-29 12:51:45

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Will clubs eventually, be forced to pay coaches with these qualifications to facilitate those grades if there are no volunteers, just to comply? Also, will they have to burden the associated EXTRA costs and time, in advertising for the position and interviewing,police checks, reviewing, etc.
Sure, grants are good in a vibrant economy, but it's not and handouts are hard to come by with the increase of applications from numerous groups and sports clubs. Not to mention legislation that has reduced the funds now available.
Volunteerism is the core to sustaining junior development without hurdles being placed in front of it.
 
Most parents don't have the ability, agreed.
Those that volunteer have some knowledge most of the time and could benefit from such a course, agreed.
When it comes to the crux, we just want to get on with our childs enjoyment and development, without the added burden of attending a 1 or 2 day course. We already dedicate 1-4 days a week to train and play.
A much simpler way of getting club coaches up with the play is to make a DVD and supply the clubs with the current methods used. Volunteers would find this more appealing as it would be at their leisure.
I use insidesoccer.com to improve my skills at a cost of approx $NZ10/month. Thay have a range of knowledge available from some of the top European and South American clubs and academies.
Thats $NZ60-70 a season (6-7 months)and I have it here at my fingertips.
These are the steps I have taken to ensure my child gets state of the art, informed development.
Why should I have to justify my ability by forced compliance, only to find that in 2/3 years time I will have to do the NEWER BRIGHTER version.
 I ask, is this part of the future revenue forecast, that is being fostered by the Whole of Football Plan?
 
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
GinaVaa wrote:
Volunteerism is the core to sustaining junior development without hurdles being placed in front of it.
 
 
Bollocks.  It will maintain us at a mediocre level - and then Billy Harris can re-hash his sunday column for years to come.
 
Junior822011-06-29 12:53:42

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Volunteers will lift the game for the few coaches who go to lengths to upskill themselves.
 
"Compliance" through proficiency certifcation will lift the game across the board (and those keen beans will still look for more knowledge, skills as you have done).
 

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Junior82 wrote:
What's wrong with trying to lift the abilities of both coaches and referees?  Someone will have to pay for it - hopefully covered by the clubs (as it is for Wharfies) as that is an investment that will benefit the club.
 
Eggball has strict coaching level requirements at junior level. 
 
Money-spinner or would you rather have keen people who might not have too much technical ability teaching your kiddies or reffing their games?
 
That is already happining just take a look around are you blind?, you can sit there and say that this is the so called way of doing it, why wasnt the last idea any good or the time before that??
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I am very short-sighted if that's an excuse.
 
I know how the game is run at junior level being involved with both of my kids' teams for 5 seasons now. 
 
There is a clear difference in the quality of coaching between those that have attended courses and those that haven't.  That quality of coaching does translate into better development for the kids.
 
Do you want me to start on refs now?
 
Junior822011-06-29 13:13:56

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
GinaVaa wrote:
Will clubs eventually, be forced to pay coaches with these qualifications to facilitate those grades if there are no volunteers, just to comply? Also, will they have to burden the associated EXTRA costs and time, in advertising for the position and interviewing,police checks, reviewing, etc.
Sure, grants are good in a vibrant economy, but it's not and handouts are hard to come by with the increase of applications from numerous groups and sports clubs. Not to mention legislation that has reduced the funds now available.
Volunteerism is the core to sustaining junior development without hurdles being placed in front of it.
 
Most parents don't have the ability, agreed.
Those that volunteer have some knowledge most of the time and could benefit from such a course, agreed.
When it comes to the crux, we just want to get on with our childs enjoyment and development, without the added burden of attending a 1 or 2 day course. We already dedicate 1-4 days a week to train and play.
A much simpler way of getting club coaches up with the play is to make a DVD and supply the clubs with the current methods used. Volunteers would find this more appealing as it would be at their leisure.
I use insidesoccer.com to improve my skills at a cost of approx $NZ10/month. Thay have a range of knowledge available from some of the top European and South American clubs and academies.
Thats $NZ60-70 a season (6-7 months)and I have it here at my fingertips.
These are the steps I have taken to ensure my child gets state of the art, informed development.
Why should I have to justify my ability by forced compliance, only to find that in 2/3 years time I will have to do the NEWER BRIGHTER version.
 I ask, is this part of the future revenue forecast, that is being fostered by the Whole of Football Plan?
 
 
Couple of points.
1) I think you'll find that clubs will tend to pay for the course.  I know mine have been covered by my club in the past.
2) The Level 1 is 4 hours.  As are the level 2 modules.
3) We are only talking about coached of teams at the highest level.
4) A DVD or similar may be helpful at some level, but there is no ensurance that  coaches 1) watch it, and 2) use the techniques learnt in them during trainings. Level 2 course get you to run training sessions to help inbed these techniques.
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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
JohnM wrote:

If the game is an amatuer sport then why do clubs "offer" players incentives to play for them and have win bonuses etc. This applies to coaches too. CF knows this is going on, in fact it has been going on for decades.

 
This is true, and it happens in all team sports that I can think of.
 
Very hard to do anything about though.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Can I just say that I've been involved deeply in Wellington football on an off now for a decade, including as a fan, coach, player, administrator and media wh0re.

I have coached for Capital Football and New Zealand Football during that time, and been licensed under the two previous regimes (Level 1, 2, 3 etc, and then Junior, Youth, National, International).
 
I've also seen all sorts of sh*t come and go, and come back again.
 
And, generally, I have been as cynical about it all as you guys are being now about the WoF plan.  If you ask some of the people around town, they'll tell you that I'm still pretty sceptical.
 
But, because I like to get my facts in order before I whinge, I have been on one of these new coaching courses, AND I have been to a couple of WoF plan presentations at clubs, and I have been to info nights at CF.
 
And, I think the WoF plan, if it is implemented and resourced as promised, has the potential to move the game forward more than all the initiatives I have ever seen in the last decade put together.
 
I believe this because, for the first time ever, this is an NZF programme focussed on improving CLUBS.  Not working with a few elite players, or coaches, or tinkering with the sizes of pitches, but a programme directed at implementing world class best practice at every club in New Zealand, and in making it sustainable.
 
If that's the legacy of the 2010 World Cup then that will be a huge thing.  And John Herdman, who I do find to be a little bit like a used car salesman at times, will have changed the game in this country forever.  In fact he may have already.
 
So all you pillocks out there, give over whinging about what a fantastic volunteer you are.  Do you know what, so am I, so are 99% of the people on this forum, so we don't give a f**k.
 
Instead, take the chance to get educated, and get a clue, and see if you can make an even bigger positive difference to your club or impact on a younger person.
 
And if the $50 cost of a coaching course is too big of a cost for your club to handle, email me and I'll pay for it myself.
 
/rant.
 
 

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
You still angry they got your meal wrong at lunch?

Founder

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over 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I'm sorry you're angry at me possibly, I guess I'm a bit irate at all the inconsistancy over the years and I do value your response. I hope you have a lot of money, thank you for your kind offer, I'll consider it. GinaVaa2011-06-29 14:32:41
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